[Robotech]

As with anything else, you have a number of options and each option has it's pros and cons. Tippmanns are good, all around guns. My backup maker is an A5 because I know if I need it, I can reach in my bag, pull it out, throw some paint in it, air up and it's GOING to work. So even if you decide to "step up" to a more "high end" marker, hang on to your Tippmann because there may come a time when you need a backup to salvage a day of paintball. This is why I don't worry about the resale of my Tippmann...don't plan on selling it.

That said, to generalize any catagory of marker is unfair. To say speedball guns are always better than woodsball guns is not accurate. To say all woodsball guns are always at a disadvantage in speedball is not accurate either.

If you get an A5 or X7 Phenom, have fun with it. Throw on a little nicer barrel (the stock barrels have a little rougher finish to their bore than some of the nicer, aftermarket barrels...this will improve consistancy slightly), polish the internals (striker and reciever halves on the A5, bolt on the X7), and buy good paint. If you have to run it on CO2, run remote and throw a Palmer's Stabilizer regulator on the remote. No need to put more on it than that for now.

Then play. See what you like, what you don't like, and what you think you might like. See if you can try to play with other markers. You'll find markers that you like and don't like and you probably will find a gun someday that you like better than your Tippmann. When that day comes, you get your new gun, hang on to your Tippmann, and continue to have fun.

My guns certainly aren't for most people, but I like them, I enjoy playing with them, and I'm good with them. That's all that matters.

[YeloSno]

Ubermick, I incredibly strongly suggest you check out the thread that is hyperlinked in my signature (the 5 line question, basically.). It should really help you evaluate this question on a deeper level.

Fortunately for you, now's a solid time to buy gear since it's the year of ingenuity again, or so it seems, and last gen **** from everyone will be mega cheap.

A setup like this will haul *** for days, stay up to par with your fun-o-meter (not other people's rate of fire. screw that. shoot as much as will be necessary to safely get someone out and have fun and coincidentally it doesn't ever have to be all that much.).

Some suggestions, perhaps?

GoG eNMey - $100-$130

Evil Pipe Kit or Empire Revolver kit (appropriate threading, of course, and can be had for $50 or less, each, which is great considering they're on par with the DYE Ultralite barrels for less than 1/3rd the cost new or used at this point)

Some used 68/45 tank from 2007 or newer (birth date, not hydro date), opt for low pressure if you can as it's more consistent and marker friendly. Low output tanks will not work on guns like tippmanns and spyders since they run too high an operating pressure, but many mechs will easily and if they can, they should. - $40-$80 (the $40ish tanks would be the newer alloy tanks which are still lightweight, but metal and 3000psi instead of carbon fiber wrapped and 4500psi. Better yet are that new alloy tanks are in the shape of CF tanks, so you can put a comfortable and effective bottle cover on it that doesn't suck or slide off your shoulder/pit area.

Invert Reloader (the space age JT Revvy/ReVLution looking ones) - $10-$25

and finally a good mask. the best I've ever used (of almost all of them out there) is still the damn JT Proflex. It's just too functionally perfect aside from the hard to change out lenses which you rarely need to do. Buy a used flex for $45-$55 of some sort and just throw a second strap on there for extra safety and comfort (big difference, strongly suggest always doing).


That should run around $300 and the reason I've been advocating the eNMey so much in the past several months is because it's forwards and backwards compatible. you can upgrade it to an eNVy with electronic lowers if you want to shoot faster and the internals are interchangeable between the SP1, SP8, EOS, Ion, Ion XE, Epiphany, eXTCy, G1, eNVy, Vibe, and obviously the eNMey itself. Not all, but most of the important functiony ones which make a big difference in performance.

Just make sure that whatever high end***** aftermarket bolt you buy, that it has 2 tail Orings so it can properly seal off the firing mechanism without having a diarrhea of air everywhere with no actuation.

[YeloSno]

BTW: the SP1 body isn't milled for eyes and the G1's is. There are other discernable features between the two that I'd find a way to buy a used G1 or a discounted one over an SP1. The finish and peripherals are better, too.

[The Inflicted]

Originally Posted by YeloSno

BTW: the SP1 body isn't milled for eyes and the G1's is. There are other discernable features between the two that I'd find a way to buy a used G1 or a discounted one over an SP1. The finish and peripherals are better, too.

Assuming someone really wanted to put the blackheart into an SP1, the conversion kit is only $40, and the older SP-1 blackheart kits came with the eye-drilled breech too.

Correction: eye-drilled breech is available separately for $35. Conversion kit just allows you to use the offset feedneck.

As for the finish, the only thing I'm aware of is the G1 coming with SS body screws, which is a nice touch but one that could be had for about $10 at Ace Hardware.

[ubermick]

Er, well I just really pissed off my wife. Which is cool, because she really pissed me off over the weekend, when she decided to borrow my car instead of hers, and forgot to use the brake when pulling into a parking spot, instead letting the concrete pier do the stopping for her.

Picked up a used X7 Phenom under budget. AND at $129, picked up a new SP1 as well. (Which I do regret, really think I should have just waited and looked for a used GOG G1, but ah well.)

Anger buying - the bane of many marriages!

[Robotech]

Originally Posted by YeloSno

GoG eNMey - $100-$130

(added by me for comparison.)

When you read what the OP wrote:

Originally Posted by ubermick

Honestly think that appearances are secondary, but like I said further up, when I think of "a good looking gun" I'd tend to go with something like this:



as opposed to something like this:



...definitely looks like the X7 ticks all the boxes, and thanks for the feedback (and from everyone else). How much is a fair price for a used one in decent condition? I see a few in the BST for $250-$300, but most people seem to be offering about $200-225. Am assuming somewhere in between?

I think it best to at least give reasons WHY you think a Gog eNMEy would be a better choice for THIS person than a Tippmann. While looks have come in secondary for him, they still play an important part.

Originally Posted by YeloSno

That should run around $300

Originally Posted by ubermick

I've got about a $300 or so budget to start with for the marker (so that budget doesn't include the mask, HPA tank, clothing, etc.)

Note his whole budget is about $500...not $300. $300 is what he was bugeting for the marker and another $200 for the other gear. Now he could get HPA and a good tank for under $200...but the tank is going to have to be used and he needs to know the different Hydro rules (Birth date vs Hydro date). If your argument is to devote more of that $500 budget to something other than his marker, then you may want to point that out. Otherwise it just looks like you didn't fully read his post.

Originally Posted by YeloSno

and the reason I've been advocating the eNMey so much in the past several months is because it's forwards and backwards compatible. you can upgrade it to an eNVy with electronic lowers if you want to shoot faster and the internals are interchangeable between the SP1, SP8, EOS, Ion, Ion XE, Epiphany, eXTCy, G1, eNVy, Vibe, and obviously the eNMey itself. Not all, but most of the important functiony ones which make a big difference in performance.

Originally Posted by ubermick

Okay, full disclosure - I played paintball once in my life

Understand your audience. He's played once. Understanding why having internals interchangable with all those markers, why he would want it to be upward or downward compatible, might be something you need to educate him on. This is a player that only knows he hated speedball and wants to try woodsball.

OP, you may also want to look at big games or scenarios that are going on in your area as these may be more your style games. I only play big games and scenario games becuase I don't like the small fields speedball is played on either. I can play it, but it's not my choice. I will say though that Yelosno brings up some good points. There are inexpensive guns out there that have some performance advantages to Tippmanns. Usually these improvements are in the following areas:

• Efficiency - How much air does the marker use per shot? In woodsball, depending on where you play, you may be on the field for a very long time. With a marker mounted tank, your tank size will usually be 48-68 ci in size. Having a marker that can get you the most shots out of that tank may be the difference between playing the whole game and walking off the field out of air in the middle of the game. Tippmanns are notoriously in-efficient...especially those equipped with the Cyclone since the Cyclone uses air rather than batteries to opperate.
  
  
• Consistancy - In paintball, consistancy = accuracy. The more consistant your marker fires paintballs over the Chronograph, the better. Higher tollerances during production equate to smoother operation and smoother operation gives you a more consistant marker. Tippmanns are very rough on the inside and is one reason why they are so reliable. They are designed to opperate with loose tolerances. Better made guns will have smoother and more finished internals improving their consistancy. Also, some markers will come with internal regulators. Regulating your air source is the number one way to insure a consistant marker. This is also the benefit to running HPA over CO2...HPA is always regulated and CO2 is not. With HPA and a marker with an internal regulator, you have a dual regulated system which is more consistant than a single regulated system. Now, you can double regulate CO2, but it is expensive and usually not as easy to do if your marker doesn't already come with a regulator.
  
  
• Rate of Fire - Tippmanns are not high speed firing markers. In woodsball, this can be important as rate of fire isn't always capped like it will be in rec games or tournament games. In games where they cap ROF, most Tippmanns can acheive 15 bps and most caps are under 13. Realize though that you'll need a double e-trigger or an e-trigger with ramping to achieve this.
  
  
• Anti-Chopping technology - This is a pretty important one when dealing with ROF. Anti-Chopping devices are designed to ensure a ball is fully in the breach before the gun fires. Without it, your bolt can move forward before the ball is seated causing the bolt to chop the ball in half in the breach. This fills your breach with paint and will cause your marker to be horribly inaccurate until it is cleaned. Most of the time, these devices are electronic "eyes" that "see" the ball is there before allowing the marker to fire. One you reach speeds above about 10 bps, some sort of anti-chopping device is mandatory.
  
  
• Hopper options - In addition to e-triggers and anti-chopping eyes, a hopper that can keep up with your marker is required. With the Cyclone equipped Tippmanns, you can reach about 10-15 bps and because of the way the Cyclone feeds, Tippmanns can usually do this even though they don't have eyes. To acheive faster rates of fire, a better hopper is required. For comparison purposes, my Dye DAM can be programmed to have a ROF of 33 bps and the Dye Rotor Hopper can support up to 50 bps. Of course, in the real world, these rates of fire would probably never be acheivable but it serves to demonstrate that when you get into the very heavy rates of fire a quality hopper is going to be necessary. With Cyclone equipped Tippmanns, you have to remove the Cyclone system and go with something like the Rip Clip in order to use a different feed system. Other markers can use any hopper you wish other than the Cyclone.
  
  
• Weight and size - This is totally subjective but as a new player, this is where trying out other guns will help you the most. It's like trying on shoes. A seven in one shoe may fit you great but not fit another person with size 7 feet as comfortably. I ran with a marker that weighed in at a hefty 15 lbs without paint or air (ran remote). My current marker is 5 lbs with stock, forward shrouds and magazine. With what I've added to it it's probably close to 8-10 lbs. For most, that's REALLY heavy. With a 24" barrel and full stock, it's too big for most. For me, it's perfect and light. If I want, I can strip it down and have a 3 lb speedball gun that's no longer than most other speedball guns. Most guns can be modified to fit your size but usually weight is something you have little to no control over other than selecting light weight options (tanks, hoppers, etc).

That list (with the exception of hopper choices) holds true not just when comparing Tippmanns to other markers in it's price category, but to all markers. These are the things that make one marker better or higher end when compared to another. Hope this helps you decide which marker may suit you best.

[Robotech]

Originally Posted by ubermick

Er, well I just really pissed off my wife. Which is cool, because she really pissed me off over the weekend, when she decided to borrow my car instead of hers, and forgot to use the brake when pulling into a parking spot, instead letting the concrete pier do the stopping for her.

Picked up a used X7 Phenom under budget. AND at $129, picked up a new SP1 as well. (Which I do regret, really think I should have just waited and looked for a used GOG G1, but ah well.)

Anger buying - the bane of many marriages!

Sounds like you did good. Try them both and see what you think. Then keep the one you like, sell the other one, and use the money you make to get other gear or hopups for the gun you keep (like the eye kit mentioned for $35 for the SP1).

[ubermick]

Originally Posted by Robotech

Sounds like you did good. Try them both and see what you think. Then keep the one you like, sell the other one, and use the money you make to get other gear or hopups for the gun you keep (like the eye kit mentioned for $35 for the SP1).

Will probably end up keeping both, all things considered. Although I should have done a bit more research on the SP1, I just basically impulse purchased it, and then realized at the very minimum a decent hopper is needed to get it functioning, and as mentioned I still need to pick up a mask and tank. (The X7 is coming with a tank, but it's out of hydro and fairly old, so not exactly something I'm going to be counting on, will likely be designated as backup.) But with the rave reviews I saw basically everywhere on that marker, I felt it was too good to pass up (despite seeing GOG G1s with blackheart going used for about $220, but would have been in much the same boat regarding a hopper)

The plan then is picking up a hopper for the SP1 and an air tank, then a mask. I know this flies against the overall suggestion of a mask being the number one priority, but will absolultely not be using the markers in any sort of scenario where I'm being fired upon until I have them both tested and working. But will certainly be picking up a decent one from the ones mentioned in YeloSno's suggested list before playing.

Once I have the markers up and running and am familiar with them, and after taking them out in the field a few times, I'll start thinking about upgrades. The SP1 has the option of the G1 "body kit" for a little more than the $35, although I THINK I'd still need to add the breech as well should I want to add the blackheart board? The Phenom, meanwhile, is coming with a handful of tactical addons I may or may not like, but should be good to go right out of the box.

And a big thanks to EVERYONE for chiming in with advice.

[Robotech]

At the very least you're going to get a feel for two very different markers and that's going to very helpful when it comes to discovering what you like and what you don't.

For masks, I suggest you go to a local Paintball store and try on a couple on YeloSno's list. Some are going to breath better, some are going to feel better. I've been lucky in that most of the masks I've had worked well. I now have a Dye i4 and I love it. Doesn't offer as much protection as others but the visibility and breathability is great. I wore it during a night game and it was the first mask I ever wore in those conditions that DIDN'T fog up. I've also had a SavePhace and a Proflex.

[iconx_balla]

Great choices. I have actually never chopped a ball in my SP1 which doesn't have eyes. Honestly save your money and skip the Blackheart unless you really want to shoot 20 BPS which would require an expensive hopper.

I rarely even touch full auto while playing in the woods, there's just not really a point. What you should buy is an APEX tip and a barrel for you guns. An APEX tip puts backspin on your paintball and increases the range by quite a bit (it also looks cool

[NoX13]

Originally Posted by iconx_balla

Honestly save your money and skip the Blackheart unless you really want to shoot 20 BPS .

Simple solution with the sp1...
3 shot burst..

the faster you pull the trigger the faster it shoots..The bps for three shot burst is already faster then the full auto bps.. walk/pull the trigger faster and easily outshoot full auto.. no need for upgraded boards for the sp1

[Robotech]

Originally Posted by NoX13

Simple solution with the sp1...
3 shot burst..

the faster you pull the trigger the faster it shoots..The bps for three shot burst is already faster then the full auto bps.. walk/pull the trigger faster and easily outshoot full auto.. no need for upgraded boards for the sp1

LOL This seems so reverse of how I shoot my DAM. Put it to full auto and you can do 2 and 3 shot bursts by adjusting your trigger pull. Then one button push and I'm back in Semi-auto.

But if the issues is that the SP1 will chop paint with it set in full auto mode wouldn't 3 round burst be worse if it shoots faster than full auto?

[The Inflicted]

SP-1's don't tend to chop paint at all.
As long as you don't install the QEV, guns in the Vibe family tend to have very low bolt force and will chuff on a ball rather than chop it.

This is why the Blackheart isn't really a must-have.

[Robotech]

Which causes me to question why whether or not you want to shoot 20 bps would require the Blackheart upgrade.

[iconx_balla]

Originally Posted by Robotech

Which causes me to question why whether or not you want to shoot 20 bps would require the Blackheart upgrade.

I didn't know the BPS on the 3 round burst setting was faster. That is interesting.

[vijil]

Hopper : proto primo. Will be plenty good enough. Amazing hopper.

[buddhistgandhi]

While I mostly agree with Robotech on the Tippmans, there are a few things to point out from my personal experience with both of my markers. I have a heavily modified 98 Plat/Army Salvo and a Tibby T9.1 and have played 4 different big games and a handful of smaller ones.

• Efficiency He's 100% right, save for one, fairly common misconception. While the cyclone technology does use air to advance the round, it actually uses the exhaust gases from the last shot to do so, so it does not use any more air than a non-cyclone equipped Tippy. I was skeptical at first, but before I upgraded to my cyclone feed, I tested my 98 with a hopper, and then compared, and there was no difference. It is a super air-hungry marker though.
  Consistancy Again, he is right. My Tiberius is a much more consistent Chrono'er and more accurate, with the right barrel. I have the threaded Tiberius barrel from Lapco made just for FS rounds and its AWESOME, but shoots normal paint like dookie.
  Rate of Fire The way I play woodsball, more like a hunter, ROF isn't a big deal. At all. I actually don't much like the E-Grip I put on my 98, I wish I would have kept the mechanical parts.
  Anti-Chopping technology While I cant speak to the technology, my personal experience is that my Tiberius chops way more paint, even new, high quality stuff, than my cyclone/98 does. I can go through 3 entire hoppers on my 98 and not chop at all, where my Tibby chops one per hopper it seems, and I have fully rebuilt all the internals in it.
  Hopper options I am woefully ill-equipped for this topic, but I love my cyclone.
  Weight and size My 98 is a beast, its around 10lbs fully loaded, but I don't mind as I also play for the exersize. The Tibby is much lighter, about half the weight.

All in all, I think you made some good choices but being a primarily woods player, I think you will find that you prefer the X7 over the SP1, if not for anything else than the mechanical features of the gun. In the middle of the woods, stalking someone, the last thing you want to worry about is running out of battery, and I think the Phenom platform is the best, more durable, most reliable gun to crawl through sticks and mud and non-sense and still be able to stand up and shoot.

[Robotech]

Originally Posted by buddhistgandhi

Efficiency He's 100% right, save for one, fairly common misconception. While the cyclone technology does use air to advance the round, it actually uses the exhaust gases from the last shot to do so, so it does not use any more air than a non-cyclone equipped Tippy. I was skeptical at first, but before I upgraded to my cyclone feed, I tested my 98 with a hopper, and then compared, and there was no difference. It is a super air-hungry marker though.

I did not realize that. Your test would back what you say too. Huh. Learn something new everyday.

Consistancy Again, he is right. My Tiberius is a much more consistent Chrono'er and more accurate, with the right barrel. I have the threaded Tiberius barrel from Lapco made just for FS rounds and its AWESOME, but shoots normal paint like dookie.

I have this barrel on my DAM and Evil seemed to fit it fairly well...is it a bore size issue?

[ubermick]

Originally Posted by buddhistgandhi

All in all, I think you made some good choices but being a primarily woods player, I think you will find that you prefer the X7 over the SP1, if not for anything else than the mechanical features of the gun. In the middle of the woods, stalking someone, the last thing you want to worry about is running out of battery, and I think the Phenom platform is the best, more durable, most reliable gun to crawl through sticks and mud and non-sense and still be able to stand up and shoot.

I'm genuinely thinking that exact same thing. My SP1 shipped out today, and am fairly tempted to just return it unopened when it arrives rather than mess with it, adding parts, and ending up selling it - and spend the $300 or so ($129 for the marker, and at least the same again in terms of a hopper and barrel at least, let alone any other tac or performance upgrades) a bit more wisely on a good tank and mask rather than buying used ones and rehydroing them. Maybe even a pistol down the road...!

[buddhistgandhi]

Originally Posted by Robotech

I did not realize that. Your test would back what you say too. Huh. Learn something new everyday.



I have this barrel on my DAM and Evil seemed to fit it fairly well...is it a bore size issue?

Its the rifled barrel, not the straightshot version, so the rifling matches the fin pattern on the skirts of the FS - it adds like 5 FPS and about 25 - 30 feet, and accuracy, but you cant shoot normal paint through it. Puts an strange rotation on every roundball and makes them travel all wonky.

http://www.hustlepaintball.com/Lapco...-Blasted-Black

As an aside, anyone I catch telling people that rifled barrels are great for normal paintballs is going to get punched directly in the throat.

[buddhistgandhi]

Originally Posted by ubermick

I'm genuinely thinking that exact same thing. My SP1 shipped out today, and am fairly tempted to just return it unopened when it arrives rather than mess with it, adding parts, and ending up selling it - and spend the $300 or so ($129 for the marker, and at least the same again in terms of a hopper and barrel at least, let alone any other tac or performance upgrades) a bit more wisely on a good tank and mask rather than buying used ones and rehydroing them. Maybe even a pistol down the road...!

I would do exactly that and use the money on a Freak or Deadlywind barrel kit so you can save some of that efficiency and make up some accuracy on the X7. And a CP remote. Dear god a CP remote. Tippys are exhausting to play without one.

http://www.rockstartactical.com/Empi...p-freak-a5.htm

http://www.deadlywind.com/p/111/fibur-x-cf-barrel