[Fubarius]

Originally Posted by Tempted

Instead of being *******s and robbing people on a case of paint, just limit them to a bag a day. But this would make you lose money. It isn't that they care about protecting new players, its all about the money and they just found a nice way to sell it off as a good practice.

A business can't do anything that would make them lose money. Ever. Not if they plan to stay in business.

Originally Posted by byarosh201

Regardless limiting someone's total paint per day by inserting a price point that's through the roof isn't a good business tactic.

Historically is actually has been a good business tactic. Why do you think sports arenas charge way more for beer than what you can buy at the liquor store? Imagine the number of drunken brawls, drunk driving accidents, and cubic crap tons of vomit there would be if people could buy beer at a game for that cheap.

Instead if the field wants to keep it limited in how much is shot per game, or per day. The field should invent creative fields that reward aggressive movement, and positioning over pitching a tent behind some bunker. On fields that are well planned, there's going to be far less paint spent.

But again, that could cause them to lose money, which as stated is something you just can't have a business do.

One idea I've had and would like to see experimented with is a "Fixed price, fixed paint amount" pricing structure. Basically, don't sell paint. $30-$50 (price to vary on how fancy the field is) gets you on the field with 500 rounds of paint for free and a rental if needed, play as long as you can make it last. When you run out your session is done, and go ahead and buy another session if you wish.

[Tempted (Banned)]

What the hell are you talking about? The field isn't losing money selling paint at $45 a case, it just isn't bending its customers over. I don't shoot much paint because I aim. New players average 500 rounds a day. Since most legitimate fields give you a bag with the package, they usually don't have to spend much more.

If you limit the players to one bag per day then they will leave when they finish that bag. This would do exactly the same things as you are trying to do, the only difference is you wouldn't be raking in insane prices. You wouldn't lose money, you just wouldn't be taking advantage of new players and would make less. Your business ethics suck hugely.

[byarosh201]

Originally Posted by Horizon

So you say you rarely shoot more than a bag per day, even at $45/case and you also understand that the field would lose money if players were limited to shooting only a bag per day at those prices.

Hmmm, I see a problem with that scenario.

So wait instead of charging 45/case you charge 40/bag. That's just a rip off. That sounds like you're hungry for money. I highly doubt you have a field with as much renown as..say skirmish who charges 100/case(which people will pay because of the field quality and household name)

Hiding it behind "leveling the playing field" is a good guise but its still a way to scheme money out of people. I would rather buy a case and play how I want throughout the day whether that's hosing it down, or picking my shots. I like the security of knowing that I have enough paint to last me from 9am till 430-5pm. 500 balls is near impossible to last that long unless you're using a pump. I can get about 4-5 hours of rec woodsball out of a bag if I'm not getting into pissing matches with people.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by byarosh201

Hiding it behind "leveling the playing field" is a good guise but its still a way to scheme money out of people. I would rather buy a case and play how I want throughout the day whether that's hosing it down, or picking my shots. I like the security of knowing that I have enough paint to last me from 9am till 430-5pm. 500 balls is near impossible to last that long unless you're using a pump. I can get about 4-5 hours of rec woodsball out of a bag if I'm not getting into pissing matches with people.

A good example of why our pricing strategy works so well and makes our field popular. It keeps people with your mentality away and makes it more enjoyable for those that don't have that mentality (the majority of the people on this planet). Thank you.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

One idea I've had and would like to see experimented with is a "Fixed price, fixed paint amount" pricing structure. Basically, don't sell paint. $30-$50 (price to vary on how fancy the field is) gets you on the field with 500 rounds of paint for free and a rental if needed, play as long as you can make it last. When you run out your session is done, and go ahead and buy another session if you wish.

I've been toying with the idea of going this route myself. Bundle the whole thing together.
Entry, rental, air, lunch, and a bag of paintballs for $xx.00. I would probably still sell extra paintballs at about $10/100 because it does suck to run out of paintballs before your buddies and not have the option to keep playing. Most people would budget their balls though and make their bag of 500 last. It would just be the odd person that would shoot an extra 100 or 200, which isn't a huge issue.

It's interesting, looking back through the history of our sport, what players considered "normal". At our field, because of our pricing structure, normal is still players shooting right around 500 paintballs in a day, just as it was 10-15 years ago. It's really not us that has changed so much and strayed from normal. It's everyone else.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Yeah. But shooting 500 rounds at your field costs 3 times as much than 500 rounds at a good field.

You are hiding behind the "help the noobs" argument so you can justify screwing people. If it wasn't about the money then you would limit every player to a bag of 500 rather than sell them more at 5 times the normal price. Your field is ripping people off and taking advantage of new players. Your business model fails whether you will admit it or not.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

Yeah. But shooting 500 rounds at your field costs 3 times as much than 500 rounds at a good field.

You are hiding behind the "help the noobs" argument so you can justify screwing people. If it wasn't about the money then you would limit every player to a bag of 500 rather than sell them more at 5 times the normal price. Your field is ripping people off and taking advantage of new players. Your business model fails whether you will admit it or not.

Why do you say the business model fails? We've used virtually the same model for over 11 years and we copied it from field who were using it for about a decade before that. As a matter of fact, almost all fields across North America were using similar pricing structures at one time. It was during a time when paintball was having very impressive growth rates (fastest growing extreme sport in North America), so it didn't seem to be slowing the popularity of the sport down. Also, at that time, when taking inflation into account, the real value of a dollar was about half of what it is now, so in reality paint was costing everyone in North America about twice as much as what it costs our customers at our field today.

Our field has had impressive growth. We do not have the overshooting problems that seem to prevalent at many "normal" fields. The general atmosphere is better than what I have experienced at most other fields. We don't have nearly as many altercations between players. Our customers leave happy and come back (which is what it's all about). Sorry, but there is no fail involved.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Horizon is also being modest. His field is awesome! I have played there and the next time I am back in Victoria I will play there again, and again and again!

For some people saying that they can shoot a bag all day and say the price should still be > $40/case... thats nice. Thats YOU, congrats. But can EVERYONE maintain that self control? Nope. That has been well proven on fields with cheap paint. Cheap paint, more shooting...It just is the way it is.

Expensive paint, Less shooting, more movement, more aggressive play, A LOT more fun!

Horizon: I fully support what you are doing, and I wish you well in your efforts to teach the logic...

[Ragaroth]

Sadly this is how the fields must make their money, though I too don't like paying outrageous paint prices. I could simply just switch fields.

[Soul06]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

Historically is actually has been a good business tactic. Why do you think sports arenas charge way more for beer than what you can buy at the liquor store? Imagine the number of drunken brawls, drunk driving accidents, and cubic crap tons of vomit there would be if people could buy beer at a game for that cheap.

What kinda twisted and incorrect reasoning is this? Mark up is to cover operational costs. That plus the knowledge that they have a captive consumer base. Has nothing to do with trying to keep people from getting to drunk.
Writing that only hurt your reasoning for justifying the high paint prices Horizon charges.


Now I thought we had already come to some kind of consensus yesterday that there are different fields to cater to different demands. Horizon is NOT right in saying that his method is more entertaining but he IS right in saying that there is definitely a market for his type of field.

[JohnSherman]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

Why do you think sports arenas charge way more for beer than what you can buy at the liquor store? Imagine the number of drunken brawls, drunk driving accidents, and cubic crap tons of vomit there would be if people could buy beer at a game for that cheap.

Oh really? I'll make sure to thank the movie theater the next time they sell me a five dollar bottle of water. Wouldn't want to get hyper-hydrated, now would I?

[sup'mango]

Destroy all electronic markers.
Only sell pumps and mech guns. All problems solved..

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by sup'mango

Destroy all electronic markers.
Only sell pumps and mech guns. All problems solved..

That doesn't solve much at all. Many mechanical markers can still shoot 12 bps and a player could easily shoot a couple of cases in a day with a mech. Even autotriggering with a pump guys could probably shoot a couple of cases if they desired to do so.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

Horizon is also being modest. His field is awesome! I have played there and the next time I am back in Victoria I will play there again, and again and again!

For some people saying that they can shoot a bag all day and say the price should still be > $40/case... thats nice. Thats YOU, congrats. But can EVERYONE maintain that self control? Nope. That has been well proven on fields with cheap paint. Cheap paint, more shooting...It just is the way it is.

Expensive paint, Less shooting, more movement, more aggressive play, A LOT more fun!

Horizon: I fully support what you are doing, and I wish you well in your efforts to teach the logic...

Thank you. Next time you are in town and playing at TNT Paintball, introduce yourself so I can put a face to the Username.

People not used to our methods often find it difficult to understand that we do have fans and get a lot of support from many regular players. Thank you for speaking up.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Horizon

That doesn't solve much at all. Many mechanical markers can still shoot 12 bps and a player could easily shoot a couple of cases in a day with a mech. Even autotriggering with a pump guys could probably shoot a couple of cases if they desired to do so.

So stop dodging the question and tell us why you don't just charge acceptable prices and limit the players to one bag per day max.

[Tempted (Banned)]

By the way, there are only about 4 mechanical markers that can consistently fire 12bps. Automag RTs(which only do it at an output PSI above 1000) and a couple Tippmanns with RT triggers.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

So stop dodging the question and tell us why you don't just charge acceptable prices and limit the players to one bag per day max.

Do you like being told what you are allowed to do? Would you really be happy going to a field where the management says, "Sorry, you are only allowed to shoot 500 paintballs today. Once they are gone, you have to go home." I don't. I'd tell them to shove it! We don't restrict people on paint. Some players will shoot 1,000 paintballs at our field. Others will shoot 250-300. The average is probably right around 500 and that seems to create an atmosphere that is enjoyable for a large number of participants. Our method has people making up their own mind to restrict themselves rather than having some authority figure mandate it. As a field owner, I strive to give people good value and most importantly make sure they leave happy rather than pissed off. That's what builds a business. That way they will most likely come back and tell their friends about the great time they had and bring their friends with them next time. It's been working very well. Why are you insisting I should change something that makes our customers happy and keeps them them coming back?

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

By the way, there are only about 4 mechanical markers that can consistently fire 12bps. Automag RTs(which only do it at an output PSI above 1000) and a couple Tippmanns with RT triggers.

OK, you may be right. But what does it matter? If electronic markers were made illegal, guess which markers players would buy. Guess what technology marker manufacturers would copy and enhance?

[Tempted (Banned)]

Taking advantage of new players does not help our sport.

And raping people on price gouging pretty much means only the wealthy are able to enjoy a full day of paintball. Its a despicable practice that drives players away from our sport.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Horizon

OK, you may be right. But what does it matter? If electronic markers were made illegal, guess which markers players would buy. Guess what technology marker manufacturers would copy and enhance?

That makes no sense. You attempting to defend your scheme is only making you look worse.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

That makes no sense. You attempting to defend your scheme is only making you look worse.

What are you talking about? I'm not attempting to defend anything. I'm just responding to someone's idea that limiting players to pumps and mechanicals would solve all the problems. Which it would not.