[raehl]

Originally Posted by Nokia6618

Since these are the numbers the players gave in several intervieuws and press releases..

OK, so the claim is:

352, 317, 307, 303.

The penalties were:

Gross, major, major, minor.

Consulting the rule book:

Gross: Over 325
Major: 311-325
Minor: 301-310


Your homework assignment for the evening:

Please match the claimed velocities with the penalties.

Showing your work is not necessary.


- Chris

[soccerguy243]

Originally Posted by Nokia6618

Wrong it was 2 over 317 and 2 below 310.. The psp made a mistake and will never admit it.. Look again at the webcast..

Wrong. You're more wrong than you say Chris is.

You can go back and watch the DVR of the match (I did at http://www.paintballaccess.com/live/). You can see a Tonton shoot a short stream before the point at 3:22:35 (H:MM:SS) on Sunday's feed.

@3:28:15 = 3 Majors (one marker was 352 FPS), 1 Minor penalties on Tontons.
Reference the PSP rules paragraph 4.2:
301-310 FPS = minor;
311-325 FPS = major;
325+ = gross penalty.
That means 3 guns are faster than 310, and one gun is 301-310.

Lane Wright says it himself:
"5. The guns were spot chrono'd by surprise and 4 TonTon guns were indeed shooting hot. 1 slightly hot, 2 extremely hot, and 1 unbelievably hot [352fps, emphasis added]. Aftershock also had 2 guns shooting slightly higher than 300fps."

[Bob_Evans]

umm.. maybe what i heard was a little outdated but wasn't it 4 hot guns that started the whole issue? then when they chrono'd the other team the ton tons had 1-2 more hot guns than them with 1 gun being over 350fps.. every tournament i've been to yoo chrono throughout the day. To top that off, every team that i see play PSP including even D4 teams, not to mention professional teams bring extra markers for when issue's like this arise. Seems like they decided to have a backstory to excuse their shooting hot, and let me mention this isn't the first time they've been publicly caught shooting significantly above 300 fps.

[broder]

Originally Posted by raehl

OK, so the claim is:

352, 317, 307, 303.

The penalties were:

Gross, major, major, minor.

Consulting the rule book:

Gross: Over 325
Major: 311-325
Minor: 301-310


Your homework assignment for the evening:

Please match the claimed velocities with the penalties.

Showing your work is not necessary.


- Chris

Taken from the official press release:

"The first marker to be checked was Loic Voulot’s gun, he was chrono’d between 300 and 310 FPS. He received a minor penalty.
The second marker belonged to Axel Gaudin, whose gun chrono’d below 300 FPS.
The third marker belonged to Frank Chambon, and he was chrono’d at 317 FPS and he received a major penalty.
The fourth gun belongs to Karl Samuelson and was chrono’d at 304 FPS (he received a major in the confusion).
As for me, my gun was chrono’d at 307 FPS, and I received a minor penalty.

Loic Voulot’s marker was then re-checked and HIS FIRST SHOT ONLY was chrono’d at 323 FPS and later his gun was re-checked again at 352 Fps. This was due to a Drop-Off (an o-ring was torn in his regulator) all the shots fired with Loic’s marker after the first shot were below 300 FPS.

... The PSP and the referees, brought in a Dye Technician during the gun check, who took apart all markers that were shooting hot. They concluded that:
All our DM13 were stock (boards, parts, settings).
The DM that was chrono’d at 352 FPS ON THE FIRST SHOT, had a regulator problem, on o-ring used.
None of our DM13 guns were modified to have an increase in velocity during the game.
None of our DM13 guns had a “cheater” Mode."

So there wasnt 2 majors thrown, There was:

1 gross: 352 fps
1 Major: 317 fps
2 minor: 307, 304

[soccerguy243]

Originally Posted by broder

Taken from the official press release:

"The first marker to be checked was Loic Voulot’s gun, he was chrono’d between 300 and 310 FPS. He received a minor penalty.
The second marker belonged to Axel Gaudin, whose gun chrono’d below 300 FPS.
The third marker belonged to Frank Chambon, and he was chrono’d at 317 FPS and he received a major penalty.
The fourth gun belongs to Karl Samuelson and was chrono’d at 304 FPS (he received a major in the confusion).
As for me, my gun was chrono’d at 307 FPS, and I received a minor penalty.

Loic Voulot’s marker was then re-checked and HIS FIRST SHOT ONLY was chrono’d at 323 FPS and later his gun was re-checked again at 352 Fps. This was due to a Drop-Off (an o-ring was torn in his regulator) all the shots fired with Loic’s marker after the first shot were below 300 FPS.

... The PSP and the referees, brought in a Dye Technician during the gun check, who took apart all markers that were shooting hot. They concluded that:
All our DM13 were stock (boards, parts, settings).
The DM that was chrono’d at 352 FPS ON THE FIRST SHOT, had a regulator problem, on o-ring used.
None of our DM13 guns were modified to have an increase in velocity during the game.
None of our DM13 guns had a “cheater” Mode."

That's taken from the Tonton's release 3 days after Lane's release. Not the PSP, Not Lane Wrights, Not was was on the PSP webcast. They were assessed 3 majors, and 1 minor.

[Nokia6618]

Originally Posted by raehl

OK, so the claim is:

352, 317, 307, 303.

The penalties were:

Gross, major, major, minor.

Consulting the rule book:

Gross: Over 325
Major: 311-325
Minor: 301-310


Your homework assignment for the evening:

Please match the claimed velocities with the penalties.

Showing your work is not necessary.


- Chris

Well i am too old to go back to school, but here is the thing : we see 1 yellow flag and 1 red flag on the webcast. So were did the majors and 1 minor come from ? Each player was there, and the 1 ref was there.. Nobody else was there, i was not, you chris were not, nore was anybody else.. When the chronies were taken..
The players gave each their numbers.. And it does not ad up to the penalties..
So either one of the players is lying, or there was a mix-up with the penalties.
And it is logical for tontons to admit 2 majors and 1 minor and then to lie about the third major right ?
But we will never know since the ref stoped throwing flags after the second one.. And it will always be his word against the players word.. I would suggest that if such a case would occur again, the refs throw the flags for each penalty and that somebody writes down how much the fps is..

As for the reg thing, so if it was not a faulty oring, what made the reg broken ?

I am sure that a lot of people would like to know..

[broder]

Originally Posted by soccerguy243

That's taken from the Tonton's release 3 days after Lane's release. Not the PSP, Not Lane Wrights, Not was was on the PSP webcast. They were assessed 3 majors, and 1 minor.

And which of these other press releases contradict TonTons?? None.

Lane Wright does not mention anything about specific velocities or specific penalties. And I have yet to see an PSP press release (or on from Paintball Access but that doesn't really matter) so for know, all we can do is trust what is presented by the team captain of the TonTons, until there is another press release that says otherwise

[John]

What happened on the field contradicts the listed velocities in the press release. I have no idea if it was a ref error or a player who simply didn't want to accept blame. However, I can say that it is very common for players to not accept blame when they receive a penalty and try to make it out to be the ref's fault.

Either way, the refs should have recorded the velocity and should have thrown flags as penalties were accessed. Just as importantly, the stats tower and the webcast announcers should know every time there is a penalty and exactly what the penalty was for. There is a breakdown in communication there and it leads to conspiracy theories.

Originally Posted by Nokia6618

As for the reg thing, so if it was not a faulty oring, what made the reg broken ?

I am sure that a lot of people would like to know..

If a faulty reg was actually causing the velocity to rise, then it most likely was not a broken o-ring. That would more likely cause a leak. It was probably a scuffed regulator seat. That's a common reason for regulators to creep which in turn can certainly raise velocity. The more you know.

[broder]

Originally Posted by John

What happened on the field contradicts the listed velocities in the press release. I have no idea if it was a ref error or a player who simply didn't want to accept blame. However, I can say that it is very common for players to not accept blame when they receive a penalty and try to make it out to be the ref's fault.

Either way, the refs should have recorded the velocity and should have thrown flags as penalties were accessed. Just as importantly, the stats tower and the webcast announcers should know every time there is a penalty and exactly what the penalty was for. There is a breakdown in communication there and it leads to conspiracy theories.




If a faulty reg was actually causing the velocity to rise, then it most likely was not a broken o-ring. That would more likely cause a leak. It was probably a scuffed regulator seat. That's a common reason for regulators to creep which in turn can certainly raise velocity. The more you know.

Not trying to be irritating, I'm actually wondering this: what exactly happened on the field that contradicts the pressrelease and who is the source?

[John]

The penalties accessed don't match the velocities the Ton Tons say they were shooting.

[broder]

Originally Posted by John

The penalties accessed don't match the velocities the Ton Tons say they were shooting.

Yeah, it looks like that on the webcast but as the pressrelease said and I've heard locally, Karl Samuelsson was given a major(red flag thrown) in the heat of the moment when he really was shooting 304, and it was recalled and changed to a minor.

Is there any site you can check penalty statistics and see if you can get any clarification there? Paintball Access doesn't keep statistics for challengers and I'm not registered to APPA so I don't know if that's available there.

[John]

That didn't happen though. If the penalty was really corrected and changed to a minor, then the Ton Tons would have gotten that player back sooner. As it was, they got three players back at the same time for the three majors. (Technically I believe it was one gross and two majors.)

[raehl]

Originally Posted by broder

Is there any site you can check penalty statistics and see if you can get any clarification there?

There might be someone who can look at the actual database of stats, which includes all the penalties.

Someone like me.

The actual penalties assessed were:

One gross, two majors, one minor.


I know, some may not want to believe me, it's too bad there's not a video record of this somewhere to confirm it....

Oh wait!

www.paintballaccess.com/video-on-demand

Click the Ton-tons match, go to 48 minutes, count players in the box when the major penalty on TonTons goes under a minute.



Three players in the box with less than a minute on the majors = 3 majors.


- Chris

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by taulce1

I love the morals most of you have. Cheaters are the most disgusting part of the game. Good for all of you who are against it.

Now get your heads out of your ***** because I've seen just about every team cheat and knowingly do it.

Wiping, ect. is just as bad as a hot gun in the cheating world. How some of you can distinguish the difference is beyond me.

The ONLY difference is that a hot gun could hurt someone. Other than that cheating is cheating. I won't sit here and beat up on the TonTons when I would have to do the same for the other teams.

Best post of this entire thread, which is pretty much filled with demented uninformed opinion

What people fail to realise is, that the punishment the Tontons got within the rules, during the match, was absolutely fair...... but the PSP going outside of the rulebook, to punish the team harder, after the event, changes the whole thing from a simple rules infraction issue to a moral issue.

And - in a moral respect - wiping or knowingly playing on (for instance), is just as bad sportsmanship as velocity cheating.... at least according to the rulebook that covers the PSP events.

So, the PSP has positioned itself - morally - in a place where they will have to crack down just as sternly, on other types of cheating which are found to be done on purpose.... and do it outside the rulebook, after events.

This whole "out of book penalty after the event" thing is ridiculous and ill conceived, and makes the PSP look very bad indeed, in my view.

They should have stuck with the rulebook as is, if they want to be perceived as running a serious bonafide sports organisation.... and then change the rules to impede further rules infractions of the same kind in future.

That would have been the professional way to handle this whole issue.

I noted the PSP press release said nothing of a coming rulechange, which I find very curious, and which should make teams fear where the whip is cracked the next time, without any regard for the rules of the game.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by broder

Taken from the official press release:

"The TonTon's told me their guns shot 352, 317, 307 and 303."

"The TonTon's were incorrect."

"No they weren't! The official press release from the TonTon's proves it!"

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by broder

Yeah, it looks like that on the webcast but as the pressrelease said and I've heard locally, Karl Samuelsson was given a major(red flag thrown) in the heat of the moment when he really was shooting 304, and it was recalled and changed to a minor.

Is there any site you can check penalty statistics and see if you can get any clarification there? Paintball Access doesn't keep statistics for challengers and I'm not registered to APPA so I don't know if that's available there.

The Tontons press release said Karl was erroneously given a major in the confusion, as his velocity was within the boundaries of a minor, if I remember correctly.

In other words, they did not claim they got 2 majors and a minor, they claimed one of the majors was a reffing mistake.

[Bloodymurder]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

They should have stuck with the rulebook as is, if they want to be perceived as running a serious bonafide sports organisation.... and then change the rules to impede further rules infractions of the same kind in future.

That would have been the professional way to handle this whole issue.

I noted the PSP press release said nothing of a coming rulechange, which I find very curious, and which should make teams fear where the whip is cracked the next time, without any regard for the rules of the game.

The fact that they gave further punishment actually makes them appear to be a more serious sports organization. If you've paid any attention at all to, say for instance, the NFL, NHL, NBA, NCAA, etc., the leagues often issue additional punishments and fines far exceeding the rulebook after the fact.

It shows that the league takes a strong stance against that kind of behavior, and it won't be tolerated.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Bloodymurder

The fact that they gave further punishment actually makes them appear to be a more serious sports organization. If you've paid any attention at all to, say for instance, the NFL, NHL, NBA, NCAA, etc., the leagues often issue additional punishments and fines far exceeding the rulebook after the fact.

It shows that the league takes a strong stance against that kind of behavior, and it won't be tolerated.

I just knew someone would miss the point of my post - So I'll ask you to expand on this question:

What kind of "behaviour" is that exactly? - "Intentional cheating"? - or possibly "an infraction already covered in the rulebook"?

Btw, all the leagues you mention, have their rulebooks cover those additional punishments - they don't just make them up as they go along, so your statement is incorrect.... the only variant in those instances, is the severity of the punishment, which is being decided upon by an official league body, specifically put in place for handling such instances, often a rules committee or disciplinary board.

Also, I'd like you to come up with ONE example from any of those leagues, of a whole team being deducted points in the league standings, for infractions covered under the normal rules of play.

[raehl]

The short answer to this is, tell me where in the rulebook it says you get suspended for trashing hotel rooms. Would anyone seriously suggest that the league would be out-of-line to suspend a team that trashed hotel rooms? (I hope not, because it's been done.) And that doesn't affect the game at all!

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

Btw, all the leagues you mention, have their rulebooks cover those additional punishments

That's just plain not true.

All those leagues have a policy that conduct that does not represent the league/sport well will yield sanctions. They don't enumerate every single possible situation and penalty in advance; they decide the penalty for each case as it happens.

I was just reading an article today about a NASCAR driver who lost series points because he was disrespectful to a reporter off-camera (or so he thought; someone nearby got it on their phone.)

There was no rule in the rulebook that said, "Don't disrespect the reporters" or that specified a penalty for it, but no one was surprised when he lost ranking points.

To take it to the extreme, Penn State University had YEARS of games retroactively forfeited because the administration covered up child abuse. You think that was in the rulebook? Of course not.

Also, I'd like you to come up with ONE example from any of those leagues, of a whole team being deducted points in the league standings, for infractions covered under the normal rules of play.

How many of them have points-based league standings?

In most of those leagues the preferred method of punishment is monetary - the Pros fine and suspend, the NCAA suspends, fines, and takes scholarships. NASCAR does have points-based standings and deduct points. Sports with drafts will fine and take away draft picks (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Na..._controve rsy)

Most of those remedies aren't available in paintball. Any significant financial fine would likely bankrupt most teams, we don't have scholarships, or draft picks...


Anyway, point is GAME RULES and LEAGUE POlCIES aren't the same thing. The rulebook is what the officials on the field follow to conduct the competition, and the officials on the field followed the PSP rulebook. League discipline is another matter entirely, and conduct on and off the field can lead to league sanctions in addition to any on-field penalties. (You wouldn't suggest a team that gets caught dumping paintballs all over their hotel parking lot start their next match with a major, would you?)

which is being decided upon by an official league body, specifically put in place for handling such instances, often a rules committee or disciplinary board.

MLB's league body is Bud Selig. NFL's league body is Roger Goodell.


PSP apparently believes TonTons actions were beyond simple game infractions, and levied league sanctions in addition to the game penalties. There is nothing at all odd or surprising about that.


- Chris

[Kizru]

Can you guys please get on with your life's what happened is over and it does not need to be continued. They simply made a mistake thats that nothing more. Now please move on in your life's and think about the future

[Nokia6618]

Originally Posted by John

What happened on the field contradicts the listed velocities in the press release. I have no idea if it was a ref error or a player who simply didn't want to accept blame. However, I can say that it is very common for players to not accept blame when they receive a penalty and try to make it out to be the ref's fault.

Either way, the refs should have recorded the velocity and should have thrown flags as penalties were accessed. Just as importantly, the stats tower and the webcast announcers should know every time there is a penalty and exactly what the penalty was for. There is a breakdown in communication there and it leads to conspiracy theories.




If a faulty reg was actually causing the velocity to rise, then it most likely was not a broken o-ring. That would more likely cause a leak. It was probably a scuffed regulator seat. That's a common reason for regulators to creep which in turn can certainly raise velocity. The more you know.

John i agree with you on the first part, but not on the reg part.. Would be interesting to get the dye tech testamony on what he found wrong with that gun.

Still there are big differences between what the tontons claim and what the psp claims.. The fact that from day 1 the tontons have been very detailled about what happened, and the psp on the other side that is just wayving it, ( almost wih contempt ) ads to the suspiscion.

And then there is the part were the psp want to sell us that the tontons knew they had faulty regs..
But hey everybody has xray eyes nowerdays right ?

As for the penalty part, the player that the tontons say should have gotten a minor indtrad of a major is karl johanson.. Former joy division. He has played a lot of tournament over the last 10 plus years.

Anyway how history repeat itself..

I hope that 141 give you the subtitels in english on the tavarez intervieuw on page 4.