[solrflare]

Originally Posted by eos356

Absolutely wrong. You can argue whatever point you wish, but the comparison is simple. Once you graduate ROTC and earn your commission as a 2LT, you have to realize that you will outrank 80% of the Military (AF is 20% officer, I don't know other branches exact numbers.) Want to see a real difference? Take a gander at the pay grade chart.
Sure, you've got a slim shot at OCS, but in reality, enlist out of high school and you're likely to be saluting your entire career. Just saying. Also, if you want to be a pilot, your chances are much higher in ROTC.
Just my 2 cents.
-Alex
USAF

Outranking 80% of your branch doesn't mean ****. And you're still the lowest of them.

Those young E-5s and seasoned E-8s salute you because they have to, not because they respect you. That comes with time.

Originally Posted by eos356

I think you have a very skewed view. I'm sorry you haven't had good officers. My captain is a good man who would gladly take a bullet for any of his men. No questions asked. As for myself, As a 2LT, my men's safety and well being are my top priorities. If there's something wrong, I consider it a personal failure. I would give my life to protect any one of the fine men I have the privilege of leading. I would expect the very same of my fellow officers. I hope that you will take comfort in knowing that there are good men in the officer corps, not just pompous *****.
Respectfully,
-Alex

It's good that there is at least one good officer in the Air Force, and that he'd take a bullet for you - but hopefully he won't have to, being in the AF and all.

I hate 90% of officers, and I am one. Pretty ****ed up, huh?

[eos356]

Originally Posted by solrflare

Outranking 80% of your branch doesn't mean ****. And you're still the lowest of them.

Those young E-5s and seasoned E-8s salute you because they have to, not because they respect you. That comes with time.

It's good that there is at least one good officer in the Air Force, and that he'd take a bullet for you - but hopefully he won't have to, being in the AF and all.

I hate 90% of officers, and I am one. Pretty ****ed up, huh?

The CPT and I are security forces officers. More and more we're running convoy duty and the like. Scary stuff. Also, I was fortunate enough to have a great senior NCO to help me out. I learned more from him then I ever learned in training. The relationship we have is one of mutual respect. I trust the man with my life, and vice versa. That man has forgotten more about security forces and combat then i've ever known. I have nothing but contempt for the new LT's who go on a power trip from day one. It's a poor leadership decision. Respect is earned, not pinned on to your collar.
-Alex

[underdog_153]

all of the officers i know say the exact same thing but they never practice it.

[eos356]

Originally Posted by underdog_153

all of the officers i know say the exact same thing but they never practice it.

That's unfortunate.

[killasteve08]

Originally Posted by sbbihknarf

lol if i went throught ROTC and OCS and became O1 im pretty sure id be leaning on the people that have been there longer for atleast a little wile untill i got to know everything

The Marines Also have a program called PLC its like an ROTC-OCS highbrid but you don't actually do anything with it during the school year, just the summers.

[justavillain]

Originally Posted by solrflare

Outranking 80% of your branch doesn't mean ****. And you're still the lowest of them.

Those young E-5s and seasoned E-8s salute you because they have to, not because they respect you. That comes with time.

don't forget those salty E3's that are in E5+ billets....like this guy(E6) But we have 1 2LT running around and I salute him out of respect. He was a Sgt in my unit before commissioning and I served in Iraq with him and he's a solid leader.

[Vindikacione]

To be honest, I'm surprised no Academy Ring Knocker has jumped on board and said go to West Point, Annapolis, or AF Academy instead! Maybe they don't play paintball?!

Interesting thread: Views are hard right or hard left, not much love for the officer corps and yet no disdain for the enlisted corps. Regardless, one thing remains true less than 1% of our entire US population serve in the Military. Think about the other 99% -the civilians, the ones we truly serve, who happen to be reading this thread. And realize their confusion when they read the amount of distrust and animosity there is within the only element of America that truly represents what this country stands for: Freedom.

A sad state of affairs, if this is how we are going to represent the military. For the sake of the uniform you wear, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself, because all and any negativity expounded between officer or enlisted is profoundly unprofessional and a serious waste of time and energy. Officers of any service are not the enemy. The enemy is an equal opportunity killer who likes reading about posts like this and see through our military weaknesses. Displaying it on PBNation is the lowest of all lows for anyone attempting to say they wear their uniform proudly. Everyone swore an oath whether they are an officer or enlisted and obviously there are few of us out there that don't remember or know what it means to swear before God and Country. Or maybe they are just pathological liars. Either way fix yourself or quit serving because you disgrace what it means to wear the uniform of a member of the United States Armed Forces... the best damn military in the history of the world.

End Rant.

[solrflare]

Originally Posted by underdog_153

all of the officers i know say the exact same thing but they never practice it.

Gotta love it, right?

Originally Posted by Vindikacione

To be honest, I'm surprised no Academy Ring Knocker has jumped on board and said go to West Point, Annapolis, or AF Academy instead! Maybe they don't play paintball?!

Interesting thread: Views are hard right or hard left, not much love for the officer corps and yet no disdain for the enlisted corps. Regardless, one thing remains true less than 1% of our entire US population serve in the Military. Think about the other 99% -the civilians, the ones we truly serve, who happen to be reading this thread. And realize their confusion when they read the amount of distrust and animosity there is within the only element of America that truly represents what this country stands for: Freedom.

A sad state of affairs, if this is how we are going to represent the military. For the sake of the uniform you wear, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself, because all and any negativity expounded between officer or enlisted is profoundly unprofessional and a serious waste of time and energy. Officers of any service are not the enemy. The enemy is an equal opportunity killer who likes reading about posts like this and see through our military weaknesses. Displaying it on PBNation is the lowest of all lows for anyone attempting to say they wear their uniform proudly. Everyone swore an oath whether they are an officer or enlisted and obviously there are few of us out there that don't remember or know what it means to swear before God and Country. Or maybe they are just pathological liars. Either way fix yourself or quit serving because you disgrace what it means to wear the uniform of a member of the United States Armed Forces... the best damn military in the history of the world.

End Rant.

Touche, well said.

[Death_Taco]

Originally Posted by justavillain

rotc is a program you do during college, you then go to OCS and become a 2LT you gain nothing from it.

But I still stand by my link.

wrong.

ROTC and OCS are two separate commissioning programs.
If you have to ask the question of whether it's worth it or not, than clearly it's not worth it for you.

My 2cent: If you think you're better than people as an officer you'd think the same thing as an enlisted soldier. It's not this magical commission that makes people *******s, it's *******s getting a commission. If I compared all enlisted soldiers to that one guy who can't do basic multiplication and can barely read, that wouldn't be fair to the enlisted corps. Not all officers are douche-bags, there's just less of us, so you have a smaller sample to go off of, which makes the numbers more inflated than they are.

Just read Got_Hemi44's posts...wtf. Authority, rank, money? I'm sorry I thought you were commissioning as an officer to serve your country, and to lead the enlisted corps to the best and some of your abilities. Just proves my point...

[penguin_style25]

Originally Posted by Vindikacione

To be honest, I'm surprised no Academy Ring Knocker has jumped on board and said go to West Point, Annapolis, or AF Academy instead! Maybe they don't play paintball?!

Interesting thread: Views are hard right or hard left, not much love for the officer corps and yet no disdain for the enlisted corps. Regardless, one thing remains true less than 1% of our entire US population serve in the Military. Think about the other 99% -the civilians, the ones we truly serve, who happen to be reading this thread. And realize their confusion when they read the amount of distrust and animosity there is within the only element of America that truly represents what this country stands for: Freedom.
A sad state of affairs, if this is how we are going to represent the military. For the sake of the uniform you wear, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself, because all and any negativity expounded between officer or enlisted is profoundly unprofessional and a serious waste of time and energy. Officers of any service are not the enemy. The enemy is an equal opportunity killer who likes reading about posts like this and see through our military weaknesses. Displaying it on PBNation is the lowest of all lows for anyone attempting to say they wear their uniform proudly. Everyone swore an oath whether they are an officer or enlisted and obviously there are few of us out there that don't remember or know what it means to swear before God and Country. Or maybe they are just pathological liars. Either way fix yourself or quit serving because you disgrace what it means to wear the uniform of a member of the United States Armed Forces... the best damn military in the history of the world.

End Rant.

I agree with solrflare, Very Well Said.


As to what I bolded, that is why we can have a thread like this, where people can have conversations that are purely thought and contain no type of contamination from things like expression, emotion, looks, gender, or status. It's not our fault the people we protect created the internet and decided one day it was a good thing. Real people are going to get together, and they are going to have REAL opinions. I dont give a **** what oath you swore under.

And shame on you Sir, for thinking that real discussion between enlisted and officers about their performance and capabilities is a demenonstration of Poor Leadership, which I'm sure is what you were implying. The greatest leaders are always the one's that make their decisions using as much information as possible. As far as I can see, this thread is only a place where some BRILLIANT ****ing ROTC kid can learn a thing or to from the bad ones that came before him.

[LostCause40]

Idk, i dont see any problem with ROTC (though dont do a whole lot as a MS1)

Real reason i did it was Dad was Enlisted, and wanted me to have a better life and a little more breathing room then we did growing up. So I somehow got a 4 year scholarship and doing ROTC now. Either way I was going in, only downside I truly see is almost every single ROTC w/ No prior service is not squared away. I eventully had to say screw and and talk to the Senior NCOs to get anything down.

Prior service O's...best ones and always will be, I guess im just tainted from seeing the diffrence.

Though, if you think you can do it, go for the scholarship or try it out in college, if they offer it. If not go Enlisted, both are highly respected and both let you serve your country which is the reason why you do it. If your doing it for the money, then go quatermaster (not knocking on anyone if you are a Quatermaster...just trying to think of something in the rear, so peoples lives are at less risk from someone who is doing it for the wrong reasons and trying to get out

[Vindikacione]

LC40, you joined for one of the reasons I did. I'm a fourth generation military servicemember, but the first one in my entire family to receive a commission. There is a lot to be said when it comes to responsibility. From the get go I thought; why should I get told what to do as a private, when I can be the one ultimately responsible for whether or not the platoon's mission succeeds or fails? That sort of challenge was bred in me, and just like you I knew I would be in the military. It so happens that the day the Marine Recruiter showed up to swear me in, was the same day I got my acceptance letter to a military junior college. Talk about decision making. I often think back to that day and wonder what if I decided the other route and swore a different oath. But given the awesome jobs I've had so far, I wouldn't change a thing. Nothing can replace the awesome experience of being a tank company commander with 36 tanks, then turning them in and becoming a motorized rifle company commander in Afghanistan. The sheer responsibility of ensuring your entire unit knows their job, does their best, and gives a $hit (cares) makes every difference in the world. Realize that lieutenants eventually become captains, who eventually become majors and so forth. A great NCO will realize this even more than you will.

Remember this- your molding into a good officer starts with your Platoon Sergeant. You know you had a great Platoon Sergeant as a lieutenant, IF... you get through your company command time and it seemed easy. i.e. no soldiers conducted heinous crimes or grievous violations of the UCMJ, high-dollar property wasn't lost or stolen, soldiers weren't killed due to safety accidents, no Congressional inquiries were issued against you, no EO complaints, never missed a retention quota, and other such metrics. If your #1 NCO (Plt Sgt) is worth his salt he will look out for you, take care of you, and support you through all your decisions, even if at the time there were better COAs available to execute. Not only will he train you to become a great platoon leader, but he'll guide you to understand the makings of a good company commander. Bottom-line, take care of your men and they will take care of you.

Realize that your Oath of Office is not some words on a piece of paper you just recite and then autograph. It is the reason and purpose of why you serve in the US Military. Great men such as GEN Patton and GEN Eisenhower recited essentially the same oath as you will one day. During the Roman times the Centurions would use their blood to sign their allegiance to the Caesar to indicate their sincerity and seriousness. Realize that the Officer's Oath is different because it adds "...I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office which I am about to enter...." Again, Know your Job (discharge the duties...), Do your Best (well and faithfully...), and Give a $hit (because if you don't, nobody else will). If you abide by such a philosophy and inspire your men to adhere to it, your unit will accomplish anything. Lastly, there is no greater feeling in the world than knowing your Soldiers will go the distance with you and for you. But you have to be able to do that for them first.

You're making a good choice.

[underdog_153]

[quote=Vindikacione;63851555]LC40, you joined for one of the reasons I did. I'm a fourth generation military servicemember, but the first one in my entire family to receive a commission. There is a lot to be said when it comes to responsibility. From the get go I thought; why should I get told what to do as a private, when I can be the one ultimately responsible for whether or not the platoon's mission succeeds or fails? That sort of challenge was bred in me, and just like you I knew I would be in the military. It so happens that the day the Marine Recruiter showed up to swear me in, was the same day I got my acceptance letter to a military junior college. Talk about decision making. I often think back to that day and wonder what if I decided the other route and swore a different oath. But given the awesome jobs I've had so far, I wouldn't change a thing. Nothing can replace the awesome experience of being a tank company commander with 36 tanks, then turning them in and becoming a motorized rifle company commander in Afghanistan. The sheer responsibility of ensuring your entire unit knows their job, does their best, and gives a $hit (cares) makes every difference in the world. Realize that lieutenants eventually become captains, who eventually become majors and so forth. A great NCO will realize this even more than you will.

Remember this- your molding into a good officer starts with your Platoon Sergeant. You know you had a great Platoon Sergeant as a lieutenant, IF... you get through your company command time and it seemed easy. i.e. no soldiers conducted heinous crimes or grievous violations of the UCMJ, high-dollar property wasn't lost or stolen, soldiers weren't killed due to safety accidents, no Congressional inquiries were issued against you, no EO complaints, never missed a retention quota, and other such metrics. If your #1 NCO (Plt Sgt) is worth his salt he will look out for you, take care of you, and support you through all your decisions, even if at the time there were better COAs available to execute. Not only will he train you to become a great platoon leader, but he'll guide you to understand the makings of a good company commander. Bottom-line, take care of your men and they will take care of you.

Realize that your Oath of Office is not some words on a piece of paper you just recite and then autograph. It is the reason and purpose of why you serve in the US Military. Great men such as GEN Patton and GEN Eisenhower recited essentially the same oath as you will one day. During the Roman times the Centurions would use their blood to sign their allegiance to the Caesar to indicate their sincerity and seriousness. Realize that the Officer's Oath is different because it adds "...I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office which I am about to enter...." Again, Know your Job (discharge the duties...), Do your Best (well and faithfully...), and Give a $hit (because if you don't, nobody else will). If you abide by such a philosophy and inspire your men to adhere to it, your unit will accomplish anything. Lastly, there is no greater feeling in the world than knowing your Soldiers will go the distance with you and for you. But you have to be able to do that for them first.

QUOTE]

that is were MOST of my officers **** up

[JackH (Banned)]

Ok ok ok guiz. You HAS to realize, that Im just way kewler then you cuz I am an occifer.



There's WAY too much hostility in this thread. Don't you chevron riding ****ers push me to make a phone call, or fax something....or...or.....or FILE PAPERWORK.

[underdog_153]

lol.

[warbeak2099]

ST: Military, where a commission automatically makes you an *******.

Haha, I can see where a lot of you are coming from though. I've met plenty of other middies who I can tell are going to be focusing first and foremost on their careers. I just hope I do a good job.

[JackH (Banned)]

Originally Posted by warbeak2099

ST: Military, where a commission automatically makes you an *******.

Haha, I can see where a lot of you are coming from though. I've met plenty of other middies who I can tell are going to be focusing first and foremost on their careers. I just hope I do a good job.

I'm not an ******* and I'll be a Major in a few years god willing.

[warbeak2099]

Originally Posted by JackH

I'm not an ******* and I'll be a Major in a few years god willing.

I know I was being facetious. It seems that everyone in ST Military is enlisted and that they all think officers are incompetent goons. I can see where they're coming from after having met a lot of self-absorbed ring knockers and the like. But there's also those of us who genuinely just want to do a good job for the people we're going to be leading. My plan when I get to my first ship is to sit down with my chief and get as much info out of him as possible, and then find out who everyone is in my division. I want to make sure that I can gather enough info so I don't **** up. I could care less if they think I'm cool or something, I'm not there to be their friend. I'm there to assume leadership over the division and make sure we're getting **** done.

I think the problem goes both ways. There are officers that think they are entitled to everything and there are enlisted guys who think the officers should be worshiping them.

To the OP, ROTC is a great program IMO. If you want to pursue a career as an officer in the military, I think it's the best pipeline. I'm not terribly impressed with the people who come out of the academies. I think ROTC gives you a more well rounded experience.

[Csmoore3]

eh you guys are all pretty ignorant, haha.

anyway, I've been seriously considering going through afrotc. As of now I have 36 hours logged in a cessna for my private pilots license, although I know that wont do much to get me into a military flightschool. The idea of enlisting right after high school actually appeals to me, but it doesn't seem like the smartest course of action for what I want to do.

You need a degree to get into flightschool, and I'm not a starry eyed kid fixated on fighter jets, I'd really be happy with any pilot position in the airforce. But ROTC seems like the best way to go about getting into flight school. Not only will it help substantially paying for my college tuition, but I will enter as an officer afterwards. I've done a lot of research on the interwebs, but a personalized response would be really appreciated.

Am I on the right track for this, or have I been misinformed somewhere? Thanks in advance. I'm doing this with my future in mind, it's kind of hit me like a brick this senior year.

[Vindikacione]

Well said bnctaj... High school kids these days. No sense of respect, yet they always demand it. Shameful generation.

My career path in the Army has been an anomaly compared to my peers. I'm one in the handful of combat arms officers that has had the opportunity to serve as a joint-officer within an AF command, specifically in a Fighter Wing. Such a job provided me with the opportunity to pull 9.6 Gs in an F16D more times than I'd want. Zoomies have it good, return from a sortie in time for a beer and steak along with the opportunity of hanging out with non-ugly female pilots and intel officers. However, if I could done it over again, I'd stay Army -I found the AF lifestyle too soft. Ground pounding has me jaded to what a being a warrior truly is. Pilots seldom have the opportunity to see the man trying to kill them, they simply fly too fast.

Fix your attitude if you want to fly. Your immaturity warrants a career as a hamburger flipper at a second-rate fast food restaurant.

[Csmoore3]

I should of worded it better. I do feel stupid for apparently asking ignorant people for help! And really, all my respect goes out to any military personnel regardless.

It just gets on my nerves when you get the same type of people bringing up the same archetypal arguments with seemingly no thought process of their own behind it. I should of known better to flare up on the internet, as I was put in my place very quickly and I thank you guys for that!

I appreciate the answers and yeah, it'll be a long road ahead of me but I'm looking forward to it, again, thanks for the advice.