[petedaddy]

I have been thinking about this subject a lot lately. The topic of Ego frames being “cheaply” made or “flawed” because they bend at the frame when you dig your barrel into the ground and then proceed to put more than your weight on them when you fall. I’d honestly like to have an intelligent discussion on this matter without it turning into a fight or flame war or troll fest. Here are my thoughts on this whole matter:

I’m not overly intelligent by any means (I’m sure Mark and Gerry will agree). I’m not going to sit here and quote from engineering books or claim I’m a mechanical genius. But I do understand things. I do know that energy always needs a place to go. You are able to dive into water because the water disperses your energy. But the higher you fall from, eventually you’ll get hurt. If the water did not absorb and disperse your energy…it would be called ice. Go try to dive into ice…Let us know how you make out with that.

When you core sample your gun on a dive, how that energy is dissipated, is where the Ego grip frame comes into play. Once your weight and pressure is applied to the gun when it’s digging the ground, the energy travels up through the gun. Once it reaches the grip frame, it collapses. If this did not happen, all of this energy would then travel to your hand, arm, shoulder, etc…If this were to happen, you would end up with a severe injuries. Broken wrist, shoulder, dislocations. It is a safety “feature” not a “flaw” (viperashes words).

I have a question for the people who think otherwise…Do you think it is a design flaw when a car smashes into a wall and gets all crumpled up? Do you people *****, “I hate the cars made by big auto! Every time I crash into a wall, the car gets damaged”. No. It’s supposed to happen. It is meant to happen. Also on that note, let’s see if big auto replaces your car for free, like PE replaces their grip frames.

PE is famous for their customer support. We know this. That being said, lets say that it was a “flaw” like a lot of people say it is. Don’t you think that they would have corrected this problem by now? There was a problem with the rammer on the SL94. They addressed it. There was a problem with o-rings shredding on the Ego9. They fixed that. There was a problem with the grips screws on the Ego8s puncturing the solenoid. They fixed that. All of these problems have been fixed. Since Ego frames have been bending since their inception basically, don’t you think they would have addressed it by now?

It bends for a reason…accept that.

[CatoRockwell]

You mindless lemming, don't you know that anyone who believes this Propaganda about "dissipating energy & safety" is just swallowing the company line of thinking... Damn you capitalists, always out to find a way to sucker us out of another buck. If only the company was run by the proletariat then we'd get quality equipment.

































Just in case there really is anyone dumb enough to think I'm serious, I was being SARCASTIC.

[outkast kid]

I used to hate PE, didn't think the ego was very special or shot that great. In the last 10 months I've owned 3 egos and they've completely changed my mind about PE entirely. Even if the frames bending on impact was initially an accident, it was a happy accident. PE is all about standing behind the players.

I don't understand the logic of people who think this is a negative feature. The frame isn't going to bend if you dive properly. It takes a LOT of force to bend metal, force that would otherwise cause serious injury to a player. Your ego isn't going to explode unless you dive really, really wrong and at that point you're not regretting that it did.

[petedaddy]

Originally Posted by CatoRockwell

You mindless lemming, don't you know that anyone who believes this Propaganda about "dissipating energy & safety" is just swallowing the company line of thinking... Damn you capitalists, always out to find a way to sucker us out of another buck. If only the company was run by the proletariat then we'd get quality equipment.

I'm not going to lie...I thought you were serious when I read the first sentence! lol....

[BunkerKing5291]

Bent my frame on my 07 ego a few years back. I was luckily fine and suffered no injuries since it bent and if it didn't i could see myself crack my jaw and dislocate my shoulder.

They replaced it for free by the way. Planet eclipse has the best customer service I have ever seen in paintball and is up there with any other company outside of paintball i have ever purchased from

[levesque45]

Did it at the end of the 09 season to my lagoon ego..... I didnt even dive wrong I tripped in the woods at a big game... I ate dirt hard and would have ****ed myself up big time if the frame didn't bend... saved my hand/wrist and stomach...

yeah replaced for free no questions. Shipped it on a Monday had it back in my hands on Thursday ready for the next weekend... A+

[okitoki]

Originally Posted by levesque45

I didnt even dive wrong I tripped in the woods at a big game...

lol...clumsy

[levesque45]

Originally Posted by okitoki

lol...clumsy

haha I know... not used to playing in the woods.... no branches on the speedball field

[AdamRRT]

If you truly want to discuss it, I'm sure the net kiddies are waiting to hear my input.

I don't think it's a flaw. I agree, energy has to be transferred, and in no way have I ever said anything against that. I in no way said or implied that it somehow is a bad thing that the frame breaks. I think that breakage is expected and especially in a marker as light and with as little material as the Ego.

I will ask one thing though: if this is such a safety feature, where are all these guys with these broken bones from non-PE markers? There has to be a problem for the fix to be relevant. While I'm glad the guys above me weren't hurt, there is NO WAY to PROVE that they would've been hurt if the marker hadn't bent. The only way to show that is to show the guys who have had similar falls with other markers that don't break in the grip frame, and that they sustain injuries every time. Which can't be proven. No adult would disagree with that fact. Do we at least agree on that? You can't say for SURE that it helps, since there's no other side of the coin to compare to.

[Blak Katalyst]

Originally Posted by AdamRRT

If you truly want to discuss it, I'm sure the net kiddies are waiting to hear my input.

I don't think it's a flaw. I agree, energy has to be transferred, and in no way have I ever said anything against that. I in no way said or implied that it somehow is a bad thing that the frame breaks. I think that breakage is expected and especially in a marker as light and with as little material as the Ego.

I will ask one thing though: if this is such a safety feature, where are all these guys with these broken bones from non-PE markers? There has to be a problem for the fix to be relevant. While I'm glad the guys above me weren't hurt, there is NO WAY to PROVE that they would've been hurt if the marker hadn't bent. The only way to show that is to show the guys who have had similar falls with other markers that don't break in the grip frame, and that they sustain injuries every time. Which can't be proven. No adult would disagree with that fact. Do we at least agree on that? You can't say for SURE that it helps, since there's no other side of the coin to compare to.

You make a very valid point and I almost agree with you..... almost. When a frame is engineered to break because of a bad fall, trip, slide, whatever, its not something PE can make by sitting back with a stack of statistics and looking for a solution. In reality we won't ever know how much it really does help but from all the stories I've read and the people I know who have experienced a broken frame are glad that it happened and that's good enough for me. Would they break a wrist if it didn't snap? No one will know but for the most part, none of them were seriously injured. I'm glad its there even if I never find out how well it works and its just another little thing that PE does for their customers.

[DM4midget]

It'll suck for those who buy used or when the warranty expires. That I do know.

I'd rather my gun hurt me a bit from a trip or fall thea break at the frame. I wonder what PE will do if it happens to one person more than once???
I feel like the crumple zone design will come back to bite them, despite their possibly good intentions.


I remember when the 07 ego first came I out I though "wow, they removed a lot of metal from the 06 to make that design". Since then. They've been shaving more and more off it seems.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea though, it just has it's drawbacks, like any design.

[petedaddy]

Originally Posted by AdamRRT

If you truly want to discuss it, I'm sure the net kiddies are waiting to hear my input.

I don't think it's a flaw. I agree, energy has to be transferred, and in no way have I ever said anything against that. I in no way said or implied that it somehow is a bad thing that the frame breaks. I think that breakage is expected and especially in a marker as light and with as little material as the Ego.

I will ask one thing though: if this is such a safety feature, where are all these guys with these broken bones from non-PE markers? There has to be a problem for the fix to be relevant. While I'm glad the guys above me weren't hurt, there is NO WAY to PROVE that they would've been hurt if the marker hadn't bent. The only way to show that is to show the guys who have had similar falls with other markers that don't break in the grip frame, and that they sustain injuries every time. Which can't be proven. No adult would disagree with that fact. Do we at least agree on that? You can't say for SURE that it helps, since there's no other side of the coin to compare to.

To many people the frame bending like that is a bad thing. If it were not meant to do that, would'nt you think PE would have "fixed" it by now?

I definately see what you are saying and can appreciate that. I guess as far as other markers are concerned, it will be up to other players who have or have not been injured in a more sever manner while playing with a different brand gun to provide their input as well.

I guess my question is, who cares if the frame bends when I dive? I get it replaced for free and maybe, just maybe I was saved from something more injury wise.

Would you no put this into the same category as the "crumple zones" in cars?

[CatoRockwell]

A friend of mine 2 years back took a core sample with his dm & broke his collar bone.

Ive personally seen the same thing happen with an ego, frame snapped and the only injury the guy sustained was to his pride.

So from first hand experience i would say it works. Also the point remains that if it was such a flaw why do they keep replacing it for free? Ive owned a lot of markers in my 14 years in the sport and NO manufacturer has this kind of service or puts this much thought into their overall design.

So from personal experience seeing accidents & in dealing with eclipse, theyve earned my respect enough for me to trust them on this.

[levesque45]

Originally Posted by DM4midget

It'll suck for those who buy used or when the warranty expires. That I do know.

I'd rather my gun hurt me a bit from a trip or fall thea break at the frame. I wonder what PE will do if it happens to one person more than once???
I feel like the crumple zone design will come back to bite them, despite their possibly good intentions.


I remember when the 07 ego first came I out I though "wow, they removed a lot of metal from the 06 to make that design". Since then. They've been shaving more and more off it seems.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea though, it just has it's drawbacks, like any design.

I have seen first hand 3 times where a marker has been out or warranty and they frame has been replaced for free.... I was one

[outkast kid]

I have also seen injuries from poor landings. A few months back a local player dove into D3 and didn't get up. He stopped moving and the point had to be ended. It took 5 minutes for him to walk off the field and when he got up, the barrel on his Matrix was 13" into the ground. They needed to stitch up his jaw because of the gash that he ended up with. If it were an ego, it'd be destroyed but he would have been able to play the rest of the day and go home just fine.

Out of respect, I didn't photograph any of it (that's why I was there that day) and I'm sure that's the case with a lot of paintball injuries. It's easier to photograph a broken gun than a broken person.

[AdamRRT]

Originally Posted by petedaddy

To many people the frame bending like that is a bad thing. If it were not meant to do that, would'nt you think PE would have "fixed" it by now?

I definately see what you are saying and can appreciate that. I guess as far as other markers are concerned, it will be up to other players who have or have not been injured in a more sever manner while playing with a different brand gun to provide their input as well.

I guess my question is, who cares if the frame bends when I dive? I get it replaced for free and maybe, just maybe I was saved from something more injury wise.

Would you no put this into the same category as the "crumple zones" in cars?

Were these questions toward me?
- I've never said it's a flaw. So no I don't think they'd fix it. I do t think it's a flaw. Could be an accepted breakage because the weight reduction results in more gained than offset by a few replacements given out. Plus you look like the good guy in the customer support area. Just a possibility. No way to know.

- I don't care if it breaks. I never have voiced a like or dislike of this characteristic. Although because I don't hear of broken bones any more often than snapped/bent frames, I still don't consider it a safety feature.

- I think it MAY serve the same purpose as crumple zones. I don't know though because I've never done or seen research into optimal points for force dispersion on a marker. It might, if we had data showing that people are being hurt by other markers with x force exerted at y point.

- mostly I just don't care. It's a fun aspect to discuss but due to lack of solid data, it's got little merit. It just got blown outta proportion by some folks reading more into my post than what was there. It's the internet. It happens.

[AdamRRT]

Originally Posted by outkast kid

I have also seen injuries from poor landings. A few months back a local player dove into D3 and didn't get up. He stopped moving and the point had to be ended. It took 5 minutes for him to walk off the field and when he got up, the barrel on his Matrix was 13" into the ground. They needed to stitch up his jaw because of the gash that he ended up with. If it were an ego, it'd be destroyed but he would have been able to play the rest of the day and go home just fine.

Out of respect, I didn't photograph any of it (that's why I was there that day) and I'm sure that's the case with a lot of paintball injuries. It's easier to photograph a broken gun than a broken person.

Gory story. But with all due respect, nothing about that indicates that the marker would've made a difference. Unless there's more you're not telling us.

[petedaddy]

AdamRRT. I truely appreciate this conversation.

I was not implying that you said it was a flaw. I apologize if it came across that way...

You bring very good points to this discussion.

[SpanksIPB]

I personally am inclined to believe that it is a safety feature and one I'm glad t have on my current marker. I feel that the force required to bend or brake my frame would have to involve me being at fault as such getting the frame replace for free would be nice but even if I had to pay for a replacement I would not mind as long as it was not prohibitively expensive(over $150).

[snkp360]

I witnessed this phenomenon at PSP Chicago a cpl days ago. Trevor Ressar of Vicious core sampled bad on a dive, sending his tank into his shoulder. His frame ended up bending, which led to a deep bone bruise instead of a fractured shoulder.

The gun was then brought to the boys at the PE tank and they promptly replaced his frame, with no questions asked.

Because of this built in safety feature, he is able to play in a tournament this weekend instead of being out the rest of the season potentially.

[Alvecchio]

Originally Posted by AdamRRT

If you truly want to discuss it, I'm sure the net kiddies are waiting to hear my input.

I don't think it's a flaw. I agree, energy has to be transferred, and in no way have I ever said anything against that. I in no way said or implied that it somehow is a bad thing that the frame breaks. I think that breakage is expected and especially in a marker as light and with as little material as the Ego.

I will ask one thing though: if this is such a safety feature, where are all these guys with these broken bones from non-PE markers? There has to be a problem for the fix to be relevant. While I'm glad the guys above me weren't hurt, there is NO WAY to PROVE that they would've been hurt if the marker hadn't bent. The only way to show that is to show the guys who have had similar falls with other markers that don't break in the grip frame, and that they sustain injuries every time. Which can't be proven. No adult would disagree with that fact. Do we at least agree on that? You can't say for SURE that it helps, since there's no other side of the coin to compare to.

I just wanna know why you had to throw those comments in there? Also be an "adult" and get my name right this time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVyll305rWA

We're all kinda forgetting this very important reason that the feature is designed into the gun. Honestly, AdamRRT, I don't know (and I could be the only one...) where the eff you stand on the matter. You are very quick and harsh with your condescending opinions stating your disbelief that it is in fact a safety feature, yet you also state that you don't believe it's a flaw...So is it just acceptable to you that it bends? What exactly is your opinion?

And food for thought. A reason you probably don't hear about people's injuries is because more people are likely to come on here and show off their bent frame and blame a manufacturer than do come on to explain how they failed at a dive and sustained an injury. The latter would likely be welcomed with ridicule and they know it, so they don't post it.

Originally Posted by petedaddy

To many people the frame bending like that is a bad thing. If it were not meant to do that, would'nt you think PE would have "fixed" it by now?

I definately see what you are saying and can appreciate that. I guess as far as other markers are concerned, it will be up to other players who have or have not been injured in a more sever manner while playing with a different brand gun to provide their input as well.

I guess my question is, who cares if the frame bends when I dive? I get it replaced for free and maybe, just maybe I was saved from something more injury wise.

Would you no put this into the same category as the "crumple zones" in cars?

IMO, Yes, absolutely, yes.

Originally Posted by outkast kid

I have also seen injuries from poor landings. A few months back a local player dove into D3 and didn't get up. He stopped moving and the point had to be ended. It took 5 minutes for him to walk off the field and when he got up, the barrel on his Matrix was 13" into the ground. They needed to stitch up his jaw because of the gash that he ended up with. If it were an ego, it'd be destroyed but he would have been able to play the rest of the day and go home just fine.

Out of respect, I didn't photograph any of it (that's why I was there that day) and I'm sure that's the case with a lot of paintball injuries. It's easier to photograph a broken gun than a broken person.

The only way I can see this happening is if you landed directly on your tank and your face hit the back of your gun. If this is in fact what happened, the frame would likely have at least lessened the blow.


The frame is left as a weak point to both ensure physical safety of the player and to minimize the possibility of the tank being disconnected from the gun and flying around when the hose/asa breaks.