[BlackAngelSS]

Originally Posted by Robotech

I play with the SoCal Ghosts. We play with and against OCMI often. We run a PUG and I really need to get back to it. At Decay of Nations you see tanks...that's at SC Village...but that's a out the only game. It use to be at the scenario games at Jungle Island the owner had a REAL M113 tracked troop APC and a REAL WWII American half track...their macine guns replaced with paintall guns but still looking like the real deal and those were the tanks used during the game! You haven't played LAW until you half go face off against a REAL tank charging across a river coming for you! Lol so yea, it's not like it used to be.

Man that must have been something. Maybee someday ill see if i can bring my tank to the decay of nations game. East coast vs west coast tankers. that would be ALOT of fun

[Team Predator]

[quote=Robotech;79228284]

Once through the main line the armor has to keep moving and taking advantage of the breakthrough

HUH! GOOD IDEA

[Team Predator]

[quote=Boom Master;79228807]

A tanker should always be looking for an opportunity to 'break the line' of defenders.

It was hilarious last weekend! We broke through the lines and were attacking the Allied CP. We ended up almost completely encircled by Allies. At one point, they were falling back into bunkers right in front of us,(with their backs to us) thinking that because we were there, we had to be their tank! WRONG! As we were shooting them all, they were yelling at us that they were Allies! LOL We answered, Don't you see the big Iron Cross on the side? Good Times

[BlackAngelSS]

The Red Barron was once asked

"what makes you such a great pilot"

His reply

"I don't fight battles i cant win"

I dont do suicide missions unless im ready to get off the field or ,am trying to take an objective,. the mission is always to help win the game.Dead tanks dont do alot to help their team. no i dont consider every attack with risk a suicide mission

[Robotech]

Originally Posted by BlackAngelSS

Man that must have been something. Maybee someday ill see if i can bring my tank to the decay of nations game. East coast vs west coast tankers. that would be ALOT of fun

Would love to have you. That would be something else.

Originally Posted by Team Predator

HUH! GOOD IDEA

Mind you that's if the armor is on the offensive. On the defensive, their role is to eliminate enemy armor. If the enemy is already bottled up, then the armor's primary job is to maintain. Generally though, Armor is best used on the offensive and being in deffensive positions should only be done when there are no other alternatives to take advantage of armor's mobility.

[Cromagnum Tankerman]

Ok gentlemen, Lets see if we can be kindler/gentler tankers towards one another. We are all suppose to be friends here. I really think if we could put all the tanks on the field at any given time. And no one had to wait in line to play. We all would be happy and want to play with each other. We could all use our tactics and roll over the field as we do. Then at the end of the day we could be drinking a cold one at our camps bragging about how we kicked some players and tankers butt that day. These arguments are really about playing time. Not what we can and cannot do on the field. I made a statement in the ION post about this subject. So lets take our issues to the game directors and Generals and let them fight it out in the meetings. Like anyone else I dont like the rotation method with the tanks. I didnt like it myself when I had to wait a while to go on the field to play. I didnt ask my other Allied tanks that question but no one that I knew of complained about not getting in the game. I know there was some moments that I kept telling my tanks to be ready and get going when another came back in. I wasnt trying to be bossy or a traffic cop. My goal as the tank commander was to get tanks back on the field whom was ready ASAP to keep pressure on the opposing forces. But you go by the rules stated by the game director and play within the bounds of what you can do. Skirmish tried something new at this game with 2 refs per tank and only allowing two tanks on the field at a time per side with a rotation of two more tanks. It worked fine as far as I know as long as the missions were short and tanks were not gone for long periods. I was once on the field for almost an hour before I returned and no one complained. At least not to me. I will say I was a little less aggressive at this game and tried to hold back so I wouldnt get taken out so much. The few times I did move up into the front I got taken out rather quickly.

Treaddz

[BlackAngelSS]

you had 2 refs on your tank? I only had one at a time as i recall

[Cromagnum Tankerman]

Everytime a Allied tank went on the field we had two tank refs. If you guys had only one I dont know the reasoning.

Treaddz

[Boom Master]

What other games are there to take your tanks to that WILL allow you to play with your tank.

There is something wrong with any game that prevents players from using their toys. That includes RPGS, Tanks, etc. Even full auto at a low rate of fire. That is the lazy way to deal with issues that can be managed in other ways that allow players to have fun with their toys.

The players will adapt. Curious, why two tank refs? One can't do the job? I assume they weren't field refs... Furnished by the tank owner, Yes?

[hardboy]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

What other games are there to take your tanks to that WILL allow you to play with your tank.

There is something wrong with any game that prevents players from using their toys. That includes RPGS, Tanks, etc. Even full auto at a low rate of fire. That is the lazy way to deal with issues that can be managed in other ways that allow players to have fun with their toys.

The players will adapt. Curious, why two tank refs? One can't do the job? I assume they weren't field refs... Furnished by the tank owner, Yes?

Two assigned tanks refs from the field. A waste of manpower in my opinion.

[Cromagnum Tankerman]

Well Hardboy I cannot say why the Allies had two tank refs per tank. They were there and thats what I was told. It would have been nice to have 1 ref per tank and no rotation and all tanks in play at one time. Could have been some epic tank battles during the game. Or the tanks could have dominated the game and wipped out the infantry on both sides. Maybe the reasoning for their decision.

Treaddz

[BlackAngelSS]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

What other games are there to take your tanks to that WILL allow you to play with your tank.

There is something wrong with any game that prevents players from using their toys. That includes RPGS, Tanks, etc. Even full auto at a low rate of fire. That is the lazy way to deal with issues that can be managed in other ways that allow players to have fun with their toys.

The players will adapt. Curious, why two tank refs? One can't do the job? I assume they weren't field refs... Furnished by the tank owner, Yes?

I think it's because the German tanks nerf him so much he needs 2 to keep track lol j/k.

They use to let us have 3 tanks at a time pr side. they narrowed it down to two. i personally dont see what the big deal is with one more tank in play or even 2 but it's not my field. At Adams paintball world we would do all sorts of crazy things. rocket artillery anyone? lol

[BlackAngelSS]

Also it was pretty weak that Isaac couldnt compete in the target shoot competition. Its not like it counted for anything pointswise and he was a paying player who comes to the scenario games all the time.

[BlackAngelSS]

Anyways i figure ill add some of the tricks/tactics i use in the tank

Camo- the foolish and unskilled may laugh at this but it does help. so does the color scheme of your tank. when i have a few mins to kill i always try to throw some leaves or branches or grass on my rig to help keep it under the radar some. Here is an example of how well it can work. West point- went there w a friend who also brought his own tank. we where on opposite teams. sometime in the day he says "i dont know why you camo up i always see you". no lies about a half hour after that on that one and only path that goes up the hill (the dead end one) pointing down the path in my Hetzer. i know the other tank will be coming. i know from this position i can easily shoot him as he appears. but just for fun i figure ill mess w him and pretty much eliminate his chances of surviving this battle lol. so i talk to some guys in the infanrty i know t and tell them to lay down heavy fire on him from my right about 50 yards away. this will distract him away from me. i then camo the hell out of my hetzer. i was parked next to a bush and used ALOT of the same leaves and branches on the front of my Tank. So brrrr brrrr brrrr i hear him coming. giggling i button up inside my hetzer and wait. he starts coming up the hill. I go to fire and the stupid wire to my air cannon came off(not the one i use now, no more electronics for me not needed). Im like WTF WTF scrambling to ge this thing to fire. the grunts are still pounding him. Then he pulls up RIGHT NEXT TO ME!!!. I'm talking like 12 to 14 inches parked perfectly next to me. He was so close i could have poped out the hatch and slam dunked a nade in his tank if i had one. Since my cannon was #$%^ed and i have a tank destroyer than cant shoot something next to it anyways i start the engine. (he later sais it started them big time). i then charged down the hill to go fix my cannon and not give him the easy kill.

moral of the story Camo works.You obviously dont always have to but its fun and works sometimes.Best on defense obviously but that doesnt mean it cant help on offense.

shortly after this pic i got a 60 plus yard 1 shot kill against a well known allied tanker in the northeast .(back then 1 hit was a kill) he had no idea where the shot came from


some will say "we dont need camo we want to be seen". well a tank you dont see lives alot longer,and can nail you when you dont even know where it is. plus its kinda harder for the at guys to shoot you if they also don't know you are there

[BlackAngelSS]

another tip-

Target practice. as you can see from this vid in jan 07 we've been doing it a while

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFqrKEy7dbw

[Boom Master]

Or the tanks could have dominated the game and wipped out the infantry on both sides. Maybe the reasoning for their decision.

Amazing! Whatever happened to the TANKS complaining about being dominated by the AT players and not getting any playing time?

What is so different about this game? Don't they have AT players? If the tanks start dominating, all the producer has to do is hand out satchel charges like candy and say, " Don't get mad, get even." After that, they deserve to lose the game...

We did a scenario training day at a local field. Just handed out extra Nerfs to be hand thrown at my tank to work like a satchel charge. They were taking me out very quickly and had a lot of fun doing it. Almost fighting over the nerfs to throw. There is no excuse for tanks dominating a game.

[hardboy]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

Amazing! Whatever happened to the TANKS complaining about being dominated by the AT players and not getting any playing time?

What is so different about this game? Don't they have AT players? If the tanks start dominating, all the producer has to do is hand out satchel charges like candy and say, " Don't get mad, get even." After that, they deserve to lose the game...

We did a scenario training day at a local field. Just handed out extra Nerfs to be hand thrown at my tank to work like a satchel charge. They were taking me out very quickly and had a lot of fun doing it. Almost fighting over the nerfs to throw. There is no excuse for tanks dominating a game.

I totally agree. Boom.

[Robotech]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

Amazing! Whatever happened to the TANKS complaining about being dominated by the AT players and not getting any playing time?

What is so different about this game? Don't they have AT players? If the tanks start dominating, all the producer has to do is hand out satchel charges like candy and say, " Don't get mad, get even." After that, they deserve to lose the game...

We did a scenario training day at a local field. Just handed out extra Nerfs to be hand thrown at my tank to work like a satchel charge. They were taking me out very quickly and had a lot of fun doing it. Almost fighting over the nerfs to throw. There is no excuse for tanks dominating a game.

Exactly! The first time I operated a PUG I got thrown off the field for being "Too effective". The field we played on always had the problem of one side getting trapped in the city where their CP was. The city had a small river with woods beyond it on one side of it and a big hill (probably 40-100 feet high) on the other. To it's rear was the park entrance and to the front open ground for about 60 yards.

All morning long we had played right behind where the out of bounds line came down the hill to the road that ran between the hill and the road. Anytime we tried to move foward, we would take flanking fire from the part of the hill that was in bounds and if we fired at the hill, we'd take flanking fire from those in the other half of the city.

So I pushed my PUG through the city. At the time, we didn't have to stay on the road. Obviously the road was a tank death trap too. It was easy for enemy AT to hide in the city and take out the approaching tank plus it was hard for the tanks on the road to hit the buildings in the city that were over by the river. I'd push forward a bit, take a building or two, then get hit by a LAW. I just had to go back to the CP to respawn and by the time I came back, at least half the buildings I had just cleared were occupied by the other team agian.

Finally, as I was heading out for what felt like the hundreth time, a team of three guys came up to me and asked what I needed. I said "I need infantry support. I need about 10 guys and when I clear a building, you guys need to come up and occupy it." They rounded up about 12 other players and followed me out.

We completely cleared the city in about 10 minutes. We were surrendering people (I had no cannon in the tank...just a marker) in groups of 10 or 20. As I cleared the last of the city and moved into the open field beyond to sweep up the lower side of the hill I got pulled off the field.

It was explained to me that I was being pulled off because the other team was complaining. I was too quiet. I shouldn't be allowed to move off the road. It was hard to tell if I was in or out (Even though I would raise my hand high since I had no netting on the tank and was easy to see and would shout "Dead Tank" as I walked back out of the line. No one had said anything about me having a red flag or something and eventually this would be required. I even had a red rag in my gear for this reason but they told me that no, that wouldn't be enough.). Most importantly, I was too hard to kill.

I wasn't happy. As I walked off the field, our side...which had been bottled up in that city for over four hours, flooded the field and pushed the other side all the way back to their CP before I could even get off the field. However, within the hour, we were back in the city, just like before, and would stay there the rest of the weekend. Even though tanks, the PUG included,could deploy on the main road, every AT gunner on their side would be waiting for us and we would only get past their front line about half the time. Usually we were shot out as we reached the front.

Some did believe the real reason I got pulled were because I was being effective...too effective. See, the field owner had these really cool real military vehicles (I mentioned them before...the WWII Half Track and Vietnam Era M113) and I was showing them up, so to speak. Of course I counter that rumor by pointing out that with us out of the city his tanks could be 100 times more effective.

To me being able to move through the city as I could helped even things out. All the other side had to do was stop grouping their AT assests along the road and start spreading them deeper into the city and I would have a hard time clearing them out. I would not have been dominant like that all day had that happened. But it was easier for the other side to complain and have me removed. (Not saying that was their goal...just that's what wound up happening.) I wish the field owner had told the other side to adjust their tactics to overcome my PUG rather than just pulling me off the field.

[Boom Master]

I had to put up with the whining from the other side for 4 years before the Axis players in the Tour of Duty learned to counter my PUG.

I will give the Producer credit for not restricting the PUG. He did open it up to make it easier to kill my tank. RPGs, Satchel Charges, Hand Grenades, Flame Throwers, etc. Anything except a paintball would eliminate it.

They finally learned how to use grenades and then they started having a LOT more fun BECAUSE of my tank.

Their favorite was giving me a grenade shower. Quite often the grenades would bounce off me and if they threw it to hit the ground in front of me, it would sometimes miss splattering me as it bounced by. So their infantry would engage my PUG and when I faced to engage them I would hear the patter of little feet running up behind me and SQUISH there is a guy squeezing a grenade all over my tank.

It seemed OK to everyone to not enforce the 25 foot rule on a PUG. Silly rule for a PUG anyway. Anyway, after getting my grenade shower, the dude would strut off doing his best Rocky Balboa imitation to the cheers of his team mates.

Needless to say, I had to change my tactics and not engage infantry unless I had infantry to cover my backside...

Some players are just SLOW. It took them 4 years to figure out how to counter my PUG with hand grenades. Went to Sherwood and it took them half a DAY to start countering my PUG forcing me to change tactics. It was a totally different group of players.

Rarely any whining. One game up there was pretty much a rout on Sat. No opposing tanks and ineffective Anti Tank. The plan was for my PUG to be on the other side on Sunday. No matter what, I could not get my side to attack even with a tank. They just wanted to play defense all weekend. Needless to say, they did not make very many missions. But they didn't complain.

With PUGs, it would be a good idea to have a conversation with the owner / Producer and the head ref about how they are going to manage complaints about the PUG being unfair, too effective, whatever.

I would suggest that if there is only ONE tank in the game, that it be a half day on each side each day. It is just a tool and the side that uses it most effectively gets the benefit. A whole day with a PUG being perceived as making the game one sided can demoralize the team like mentioned above, that they just can't get back into the game with the tank on Sunday.

The WORST thing is making the mistake of changing the rules in the middle of the game.

First game of the season in the Tour of Duty when they decided to ban Nerfs Bazookas and go with markers made up to look like bazooka that had to hit itty bitty targets on each side of the tank.

I will admit I was not happy about him banning Nerfs but immediately figured out how he gave my PUG a HUGE tactical advantage by doing so.

So I planned and had every right to play the game to the best of my ability with the new rules.

I took a No Mercy attitude and chose to use that tactic very aggressively and hoped to convince Bill, this paintball bazooka thing was a bad idea especially after a bunch of HIS customers had made a bunch of Nerf Bazookas they couldn't use.

The anti tank paintball targets on the tanks reflected the relative strength of armor on a real tank. 2" square on the front, 4" on the sides, and a big fat 8" on the back.

I really enjoyed standing in plain sight with that 2" front target rubbing up against a 4" tree trunk when enemy armor showed up. They were defenseless unless they could get a angled shot at my side targets. Or standing behind your fork lift pallet bunker covering up the front and side targets but the top half of the PUG totally exposed. My PUG totally dominated their armor. The last straw was when I went INSIDE a 4 sided bunker that totally covered all my targets. It was within a foot of the tank road and 50 feet from the objective we were to defend. TJ, my good friend and fellow tanker rolled up and realized he was screwed. They had nothing to shoot at and for some strange reason the motorized tank rules stated they could not stop. (Players would use them for bunkers, presumably)

Directly opposite of my bunker was a KID with his brand new Anti Tank paintball marker set up looking for his first tank kill. Our plan was for my PUG to get their attention and as they rolled by dealing with my PUG, he would take his shot almost point blank on there side targets. So I waited and just shot my regular marker at TJ. They were pissed and STOPPED right next to my bunker to complain to the ref that I was too close the objective (50 foot rule tank camping on objective rule which I already had cleared with the mission ref) For whatever reason, they where making so much of a fuss that the KID never took his shot. The ref decided to make peace and both TJ and my PUG went neutral on each other and he would leave the mission area and then return to re engage.

30 minutes later, I am informed by Bill that I cannot go INSIDE structures. and the opposing general standing right next to Bill threating to pound me into the dirt.

Clarifying my use of one to two sided pallet bunkers, we agreed that if it was wrapped in field tape, I would have to stay out of that perimeter but COULD use it for cover. Well, all the field refs and players on the other side did NOT get the same set of information. Playing by the rules the PRODUCER gave me, the refs and other players were accusing me of cheating and demanding I be taken off the field. Refs told me I was eliminated for using cover illegally. Then I was back in and back out. It took almost ALL day for the refs to get on the same page as the Producer.

NEVER change the rules in the middle of the game, It only caused chaos.

They whined all right, but not about wanting the Nerf Rockets back. They wined it was "unfair" for me to use that tactic and wanted the producer to force my PUG to not use cover and have to stay on the tank roads like they did.

Well, everyone was pissed. Bill allowing his local players on HIS field to physically threaten me in his presence. I was pissed about that since the Producer was standing right next to him while 50 players heard this go down. I demanded their General be sent off the field for unsportsmanlike conduct for threatening me. I was pissed about the Nerf ban. Bill caved to his players and banned my PUG saying his players needed to cool off and he didn't want anybody getting physical. Well, my attitude was HE should penalize players that threaten other people. He should control his local players on HIS field. So fine, I was sick of it anyway. Not having fun at his games. I can spend my money elsewhere and went to Sherwood and had a great time. CPX, Rhelms of Ruin and didn't have any problems with other players whining like the Axis players of the Tour of Duty. And it took the Sherwood players half a day to learn how to counter my PUG.

[ShepsTank]

With my PUG, I have been in pretty much all the situations Boom Master describes. The worst is changing the rules several times in a day because there is no way all the refs will get the changes and there have been times where I was only told the rule changes after the fact. If the sides are getting that unbalanced because of me, I am more than willing to take the PUG off the field for a while and just run and gun. And tape boxes are a horrible idea for tanks. In a PUG it is very easy to hide the box while still being able to attack the enemy. Random rule changes and tape boxes will keep me from coming back to a field.

I would like to see more fields with separate rules for motorized tanks and PUGs. It should take more hits to take out a tank while PUGs should be able to take advantage of their mobility and go places the tanks can't go. Ideally there would be no set tank roads but I understand some places are worried about their fields getting torn up. This can be handled by designating certain parts of the field open to tanks and certain parts limited to roads only. Or if the ground is dry and the path is wide enough, it should be fair game. Tanks are the most fun when they show up places no one is expecting them. If a tank abuses this and tears up the field or continually gets stuck then the field can just not invite them back.