[Horizon]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

How "horrible". God forbid someone wants to shoot a bunch of paint, it's not like we're playing paintball or anything.

It is rather ironic that the only sentence in my post you focused on was that one. Haha.

[jyocum10]

Free entry, $10 for all day air, case of paint 35-100 depending on what you want

[universal_dave]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

How "horrible". God forbid someone wants to shoot a bunch of paint, it's not like we're playing paintball or anything.

I really don't see why a different model is so offensive to you.

Several folks (I believe you included) keep proposing "only allow them a limited amount of paint" as your solution to making the game "low volume".

I submit to you that means that you (and several more folks) really are kind of lost when it comes to human nature. If you make it "X shots then you're done for the day", that hard line will be an active detriment to people. Sure, there will be some that won't mind it, but far more will get angry over a hard limit on their style of play.

A higher price for paint is a *soft* limit, it's usually far less offensive to people...folks who want to shoot more can, but it's still self limiting.

Folks who *only* want to shoot a ton of paint will figure it out and go somewhere else (likely pretty quickly)...and as stated several times, in several ways, the field operator is *fine with that*.

The field model doesn't work for you, don't go there, there's plenty of other choices.

[SNAKESNIPER (Banned)]

Originally Posted by universal_dave

I really don't see why a different model is so offensive to you.

Because it keeps new players out of the sport, which prevents growth. Also it's not so much a "model" as a straight up ripoff.

Several folks (I believe you included) keep proposing "only allow them a limited amount of paint" as your solution to making the game "low volume".

I never proposed that. I propose he should charge a reasonable amount for his paint, limited ammo or otherwise.

The field model doesn't work for you, don't go there, there's plenty of other choices.

I don't even live in the same province as Horizon's field. It's geography.

Believe me, I would never set foot on his field. I recognize a cash-grabbing price gouge when I see it because I know generally how much a field's wholesale price on cases is.

The problem is that first timers will go there, get charged an insane amount and assume paint is that expensive at every field, decide that the sport is too expensive for them and never bother to even try paintball again.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

I highly doubt that the price has that big an effect on new players joining the sport compared to a lot of other factors.

Hockey, Skiing, Snowboarding, Wakeboading, American Football, and other sports are also very expensive to get into and play and yet they continue to have new players join the sport.

Hell, it cost nearly $80 just to get a lift ticket these days...and that is before rentals, transportation, food, your own snow suit... Yet Thousands of people try out skiing or snowboarding every year.

Hockey equipment is very expensive. It often needs to be replaced every year or two. Registration into a league is not free...Ice time Cost someone money...Yet new players join every year.

I think some people are putting too much emphasis on price.

How much does a new Rental player actually pay on average at a field with cheap paint vs a field such as TNT?

I would hazard a fairly solid guess that the prices are not all that far off...

-$50 to $80 at TNT (Rental players are not buying a whole case to them selves...)

-$50+ at a cheap field? Entry + a cheap case?

When paint is cheap people buy more of it, and often end up spending more because of it.

Add that to the high rate of fire which results and I would argue that this combination would be more harmful to new players desire to come back than Price alone.

[rexisme]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

The problem is that first timers will go there, get charged an insane amount and assume paint is that expensive at every field, decide that the sport is too expensive for them and never bother to even try paintball again.

THE END.

[byarosh201]

The problem is horizon is charging what would be the approximate cost for a case, on a per bag level.

One bag(500) - $45

Other fields one case - $45-55

See what people are getting at now?

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

The problem is that first timers will go there, get charged an insane amount and assume paint is that expensive at every field, decide that the sport is too expensive for them and never bother to even try paintball again.

Originally Posted by rexisme

THE END.

See this is why I don't get why you guys are arguing about this so much and it demonstrates that you have no understanding of the concept at all.

You guys say it does one thing when it actually does exactly the opposite. Because we all know that people don't want to spend an arm and a leg to play paintball (I assume you agree with that point), it automatically creates a much less intense environment for new players, so in fact we are attracting and even more importantly, retaining more new players than what you call "good" fields. I don't mind that you can't grasp the concept, but arguing about something that you don't understand sort of boggles my mind.

The other thing you guys keep talking about is "new" players. Our business model is not just attractive to new players. We also have the lion's share of the gear owning regular players in the market place. I'm sure just about every one of them has experienced the lower priced/higher paintball volume fields, but they prefer our field. So when you say that people will experience the high paint prices and it will keep them from playing paintball again, it's simply not true. Exactly the opposite seems to be happening. $160/case didn't keep the sport from growing 20 years ago when people weren't earning even half as much as they do today and it doesn't keep the sport from growing today, when $160 is actually worth about half in 1990 dollars.

Try to get past your initial shock, your knee jerk reactions, and your personal prejudices and use your brains. It's not really that hard of a concept to understand.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Horizon just stop. You can't pull wool over our eyes by squalling about how you promote a less paint policy by screwing people on the paint they do buy.

We all understand your scheming concept and that is why we all want you out of our sport.

I am willing to bet an extraordinary amount of money on this subject. I know, without question, that if I walk up to 99% of rec ball players who play once a month and ask them why they don't play every weekend that their answers are "I can't afford to play every weekend". And that is at the correct prices. You charge 400% more than good fields. Yes, you are running people away from the game and no, there is no chance in hell that you will get any of us who play often on your side. You're a crook.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

How exactly is $60 a day of play too much? You have yet to answer that question?

[incognito-z]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

How exactly is $60 a day of play too much? You have yet to answer that question?

50$ is usually my limit... 20$ for entry+air and I get my own paint. Not sure how anybody would pay 160$ for a case...

[randomdean]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Only fixed costs stay the same, variable costs (expenses) increase with the number of players..

Obviously expenses vary greatly in different part of the world. That aside, the only expense we have less than a field that sells more paint to each customer is the cost of the paint, which is not a field's biggest expense. At least it shouldn't be unless it's a crappy field that doesn't provide much to their customers. But that savings is offset by providing better than average service like higher ref to player ratios than most fields, free lunch, included air/CO2, rarely charge own gear players for stuff they need like tanks, barrel socks, masks, camo and such. I HOPE we have more profit per player than many fields, but I doubt that we honestly do. You just think we do. But you actually know very little about our business. The only thing you can focus on is the price of paint, probably because you're the type of player that regularly shoots more than a bag of 500.

Cool? Completely sidestep the issue some more. The issue is your profit margin on paint sales, not your overall profit margin. You say free lunch, letting gear owners rent stuff for free, free air, higher ref ratio? That is inconsequential in this argument, if your business model is that expensive then charge an, accordingly priced, field fee; don't be that ******* who touts false information about free lunches etc.. when you're just hiding the charge in your, highly outrageous, paint mark up. Shady business tactics are what your field runs on, this is undeniable to anyone with half a brain and a somewhat functioning moral compass. If you're truly concerned about the amount of paint people shoot keep a tally of what people buy on their waivers, when you feel they have gone past the point you are comfortable with deny them the sale. But, I doubt you will do that because you would rather hide your operating costs in your paint pricing. Probably, so that you can, falsely, tout being an awesome and helpful field who has a lot of "freebies" and because you make more money this way. Either say it's all about the money or break up your pricing structure so people know where their money is going, but whatever you do stop blowing smoke up our collective ******* because no one is buying it.

/argument

move on and please shut up

[happy7833]

Originally Posted by incognito-z

50$ is usually my limit... 20$ for entry+air and I get my own paint. Not sure how anybody would pay 160$ for a case...

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Originally Posted by randomdean

If you're truly concerned about the amount of paint people shoot keep a tally of what people buy on their waivers, when you feel they have gone past the point you are comfortable with deny them the sale.

The ONLY place I have ever seen this idea ever used is in a bar...and then rarely...and then only because the bar staff are supposedly not supposed to continue you serve drunk people...yeah right.

[SNAKESNIPER (Banned)]

Originally Posted by randomdean

Cool? Completely sidestep the issue some more. The issue is your profit margin on paint sales, not your overall profit margin. You say free lunch, letting gear owners rent stuff for free, free air, higher ref ratio? That is inconsequential in this argument, if your business model is that expensive then charge an, accordingly priced, field fee; don't be that ******* who touts false information about free lunches etc.. when you're just hiding the charge in your, highly outrageous, paint mark up. Shady business tactics are what your field runs on, this is undeniable to anyone with half a brain and a somewhat functioning moral compass. If you're truly concerned about the amount of paint people shoot keep a tally of what people buy on their waivers, when you feel they have gone past the point you are comfortable with deny them the sale. But, I doubt you will do that because you would rather hide your operating costs in your paint pricing. Probably, so that you can, falsely, tout being an awesome and helpful field who has a lot of "freebies" and because you make more money this way. Either say it's all about the money or break up your pricing structure so people know where their money is going, but whatever you do stop blowing smoke up our collective ******* because no one is buying it.

/argument

move on and please shut up

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by randomdean

Cool? Completely sidestep the issue some more. The issue is your profit margin on paint sales, not your overall profit margin. You say free lunch, letting gear owners rent stuff for free, free air, higher ref ratio? That is inconsequential in this argument, if your business model is that expensive then charge an, accordingly priced, field fee; don't be that ******* who touts false information about free lunches etc.. when you're just hiding the charge in your, highly outrageous, paint mark up. Shady business tactics are what your field runs on, this is undeniable to anyone with half a brain and a somewhat functioning moral compass. If you're truly concerned about the amount of paint people shoot keep a tally of what people buy on their waivers, when you feel they have gone past the point you are comfortable with deny them the sale. But, I doubt you will do that because you would rather hide your operating costs in your paint pricing. Probably, so that you can, falsely, tout being an awesome and helpful field who has a lot of "freebies" and because you make more money this way. Either say it's all about the money or break up your pricing structure so people know where their money is going, but whatever you do stop blowing smoke up our collective ******* because no one is buying it.

/argument

move on and please shut up

Sidestepping what issue? I've been nothing but honest with everything I have said. Why do you care what my margin on paint is compared to overall margin. As long as the customer is getting good value overall and is out of pocket roughly the same as other fields, why should that concern you? Do you care that McDonalds has a 300% markup on a Big Mac? I don't. If I want a Big Mac and I feel it's worth the price they are charging, I'll buy one. If I think it's overpriced and I can get better value at Burger King, I'll go there. As a consumer, I have choices. You wouldn't come to our field because the paint is too expensive for you. Cool. Your choice. I don't go to the low cost paint fields because I don't like what they offer. My choice. We all have choices.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

How exactly is $60 a day of play too much? You have yet to answer that question?

Where exactly did you come up with $60? By the way, My field is $30 with a bag of paint(500 rounds) and all day air with rental equipment. The same thing at Horizon's sham of joint is $80, nearly three times the cost and the exact same package.

[randomdean]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

The ONLY place I have ever seen this idea ever used is in a bar...and then rarely...and then only because the bar staff are supposedly not supposed to continue you serve drunk people...yeah right.

Well it's the only good way to limit paint use without scamming the **** out of people. And cool analogy dude :rollseyes:, only difference is that the bars don't make it a point to try and limit people based on their own beliefs in how people should drink, they do it to save lives not to cater to a certain market. This field on the other hand makes it part of it's running philosophy to try and limit paint use, but they do it in a shady and ****ty manner by overpricing the hell out of their paint. If the high paint cost is to deter people from using too much paint then why doesn't the field put on all of it's advertising that it's paint is 400% pricier than the competitions, probably close to 800% higher than cost, but it's for the customers benefit. Yeah that's right, because it would deter people away, something that horizon says the overpriced paint doesn't do. You and horizon are on the wrong side of this argument, and have the argumentative skills of a 2 year old.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Sidestepping what issue? I've been nothing but honest with everything I have said. Why do you care what my margin on paint is compared to overall margin. As long as the customer is getting good value overall and is out of pocket roughly the same as other fields, why should that concern you? Do you care that McDonalds has a 300% markup on a Big Mac? I don't. If I want a Big Mac and I feel it's worth the price they are charging, I'll buy one. If I think it's overpriced and I can get better value at Burger King, I'll go there. As a consumer, I have choices. You wouldn't come to our field because the paint is too expensive for you. Cool. Your choice. I don't go to the low cost paint fields because I don't like what they offer. My choice. We all have choices.

^^^Huge fail of an argument.

Prices aren't roughly the same when you compare apples to apples. Strictly speaking, your prices are 3 times more than a good field for exactly the same package. I can buy a Big Mac for 3 bucks. I can also buy a case of Valken Crusade for $45 and Redemption for $60(and that comes with all day air). I couldn't buy one bag of paint and the field fee at your field for that.



SHUT IT ABOUT PEOPLE PAYING THE SAME ON YOUR FIELD VS OTHERS. YOU ARE LYING.


To any of you who think that thief might have a point, consider this:

If I spend $60 for one bag of paint and field fee, and I only shoot one bag of paint, I am paying about the same as I would at my field. Here is the difference, and it is a HUGE one. While people might spend the same amount of money on his field as others by simply shooting less paint, he is making 5 times more money and doing far less work. How? Well to start with if a player shoots one bag of paint, the one tank of air lasts all day. He doesn't need to worry about filling tanks. His cost on paint is less than 1/4 of a good field even if the players pay exactly the same price. How? Because on a good field you get a box, on his field you get a bag, for the same price. So now not only is he making 5 times the money, he has very little expense tied up in actually buying paint since he isn't selling as much. This does not mean the customers got their moneys worth because they would have spent the same at a good field, it means they got far less and Horizon made far more.

I hope that shines some light into his shady business plan.

[randomdean]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Sidestepping what issue? I've been nothing but honest with everything I have said. Why do you care what my margin on paint is compared to overall margin. As long as the customer is getting good value overall and is out of pocket roughly the same as other fields, why should that concern you? Do you care that McDonalds has a 300% markup on a Big Mac? I don't. If I want a Big Mac and I feel it's worth the price they are charging, I'll buy one. If I think it's overpriced and I can get better value at Burger King, I'll go there. As a consumer, I have choices. You wouldn't come to our field because the paint is too expensive for you. Cool. Your choice. I don't go to the low cost paint fields because I don't like what they offer. My choice. We all have choices.

Sidestepping the issue doesn't mean you were being dishonest. A 300% markup on a mcdonalds big mac is because they have overhead, but the difference is that they don't also charge an entrance fee, to cover overhead. Looking on your site you also charge a field fee.

Mcdonalds also doesn't advertise free condiments, napkins, staff, etc.. You do, and when you say the high paint cost is to cover those expenses those extras become not free anymore.

I have nothing wrong with you charging $160 a case, hell if you can get away with 5 grand a case go for it, supply and demand. But don't do it under the guise of the high cost being for the customer's benefit, the only thing it is benefiting is your pocket book, and for you to say anything but that is a lie. It's a matter of principle and your ****ty business tactics of misleading the consumer that irritates people. Either you're extremely inept, or are being devious. I think the latter, especially since you sidestepped 90% of my argument and only focused on the parts that, you thought, you could defend. Strawman fallacy, look it up. Actually since you're pretty dull, as shown by your arguments, I'll look it up for you.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 has position X.
Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

Prices aren't roughly the same when you compare apples to apples. Strictly speaking, your prices are 3 times more than a good field for exactly the same package. I can buy a Big Mac for 3 bucks. I can also buy a case of Valken Crusade for $45 and Redemption for $60(and that comes with all day air). I couldn't buy one bag of paint and the field fee at your field for that.

See, that's where the problem lies. You are comparing apples to apples. But your field with your pricing structure is providing apples, while we are providing oranges. That's the whole point. Our pricing structure changes the product. You think a field is all about selling paint. We are in the business of selling entertainment (fun). Paintballs just happen to be a necessary tool in this form of entertainment. But the volume of paintballs changes the product. As an extreme example, a day of paintball with everyone shooting 100 paintballs each compared to the same day with everyone shooting 10,000 paintballs each would be two totally different things. That's an extreme example and an extreme difference in products. But there is a difference in any variation in volume of paintballs. Even the difference between 500 paintballs each and 1,000 paintballs each can be seen, it's just not as extreme. We happen to provide a certain product. A low volume product, but we still need similar income per player to stay in business. Apparently some of you don't like our version of paintball That only makes sense since most of you have taken up the sport in the high paintball volume world, so that's what you are used to. I get it and I don't begrudge that.

We'll never change though because we've found out from experience that a wider demographic prefers our version of paintball. We get more customers and probably more repeat customers. Why on earth would I change to a business model that would attract less people? You can fight and argue about it all you want, but in the end, like any business, if customers are getting good value (in our case it's fun vs. dollars spent) they are going to come back and they are going to tell their friends about it and bring them with them next time.

To the person that said that we make 5 times as much as other fields, you must be using some of that new math. For us to make 5 times as much, the average player would need to spend 5 times as much (they don't) with us having the same expenses as another field, or we would have to have the same income with our expenses 5 times lower (which they obviously aren't), or something in between that would be just as laughable. Give your head a shake. If you know nothing about business, you probably shouldn't make hair brained statements like that.