[phillylovin1994]

In defense of the German tanks, there was 8 AT guys just with my team alone holding down that area, not to forget our 20 other guys that we use for support on are team and then prolly another 100-200 peope behind

[Abnmp78]

So say 150-200 players holding an area. So the general should mass infantry to break thru and get HIS tanks on the field. That's the point. Not that the tankers did anything wrong.
The key is combined arms. When the tanks and infantry work together.

[CNCRouterman]

Abnamp78, you are so right. Combined arms in this environment is crucial. Both from the overall game score perspective, but also for the overall enjoyment of the game.

Easy victories may put points up on the board, but from an excitement and memorable experience standpoint, they are pretty hollow.

I have observed far more excitement on BOTH sides when there was an intense Tank duel with loads of infantry on both sides waiting on the outcome. The case I'm recalling was at my very first PB game, and our tank was facing off with Sweettooth (I think) and his Orange Mohawk tank. We traded about 4 or so volleys, while each tank moved only a couple of feet forward or backward to maintain natural cover. Our line of fire defined the battle front, and each team was trying to cross that line, and both tank had great fields of fire for Anti personnelle fire, so as long as the tanks were there, neither side's infantry could advance to their respective objective.

The duel only lasted a few minutes, but the shear tension in the infantry was building fast. It would just about peak each time a well aimed shot was headed for the opposing tank, only to be stopped by a tree or other natural obstacle, the Players would lead off, like a baseball player leading the pitch, only to dash back for cover when the shot failed. It was pretty Epic for those few minutes. For all the players in that few minutes of game, it was like watching your favorite Pitcher go up against the other teams favorite Batter. A fairly good analogy, actually, as it took several "pitches", swings, and misses before the duel was done.

Those on the winning side of that battle felt they EARNED that victory, and I would bet the folks on the other side remembered it too, and were busy planning how to do better next time.

The most significant observation of that exchange was just how much excitement a Tank on Tank battle brings to a game. It was really quite notable, as when the deciding shot was finally administered, the resulting tumult of voices, both cheering and despairing were heard for a very respectable distance.

[Jrob33]

now HAT baseball anlaogy made sense! lol kidding...

[BlackAngelSS]

Originally Posted by Abnmp78

So say 150-200 players holding an area. So the general should mass infantry to break thru and get HIS tanks on the field. That's the point. Not that the tankers did anything wrong.
The key is combined arms. When the tanks and infantry work together.

good you build a tank and count on hundreds or random players to do their job and support you. I'd prefer balanced rules. or balanced weaponry.

If you want to really get technical in WW2 a bazooka shot like 100 yards tops. where as a mg round shot over a 1000 yards and a tank round went twice that. If it were up to me the a/t guys would either be restricted in numbers or have to shoot a different ammo. i have these 2 inch foam balls that are soft like a nerf and shoot half as far. that would balance things out quick.

Unbalanced rules don't just affect our tanks on the field. They affect our ability to recruit good tanks as well. I know of a few tanks offhand that wont play at certain fields due to unbalanced rules. Since i have been in charge of organizing and recruiting the German armor for 5 years i know what i am talking about in this area.

Like CNC said a good tank battle is fun for everyone. anyone who hasnt rolled into battle in a paintball tank is missing out

[Abnmp78]

Obviously missed my point.
I suggested that LAWs use a p'zooka since if they can shoot you you can shoot them idea and the tankers were all against it since it would ruin the game. But until fields allow LAWs to take out bunkers it will always be how to limit the laws.
There was a great thread about two-three years on his and if tankers don't feel it's fair they'll stop building them.

[CNCRouterman]

What is a "p'zooka"? Is that a paintball marker mocked up to look like a bazooka?

I think SS may be on to a valid game balancer. If the AT LAWs Bazookas, and RPGs were using a shorter ranged ammo, one that brought them into (tanker's) PB marker range, I think that would tend to even things up a bit.

Possibilities for accomplishing that would include a different ammo such as the 2" foam balls that SS suggested, or possibly chrono-ing the Nerf shooters to a significantly lower FPS, maybe something like 120 or so.

The main downside I see to either idea is making the tank crew aware of the hit. Currently, it is fairly easy to tell the difference between a PB hit and a 180 FPS Nerf from inside the tank, slow nerfs or those soft 2" foam balls will be undetectable most, if not all the time (from the tank crew perspective).

I would leave "crew serve" AT weapons with the nerfs at Tank chrono. The premise is that often times, Towed AT guns are just Tank Guns on wheels instead of in a turret. I'm thinking of examples like 57mm AT gun, or German 88s (which were also AA artillery as well as the primary Tiger armament).

I am in favor of allowing bunkers to be destroyed by both tanks and probably Bazookas. Bear Claw has gone both ways on that, the last game in either April or May of '11 did not allow tanks to destroy bunkers, and that really messed up the balance for the tanks, as, of course, you can guess where the LAW players tended to take position. Had a good discussion with Ben from MPP games on the subject after hearing about 50% of the Tankers say they were leaving the tanks home next game if that rule stayed. Ben told me that he would restore the rule for the next game to permit Nerfs to destroy "small" bunkers, but not buildings or forts. The issue then was mostly enforcement, and avoiding resentment on the field due to ambiguous calls or situations. All the tankers I spoke with at that game were of the opinion that allowing tanks to engage bunkers under the previous rules was highly preferred, as even when a ref was not immediately present to enforce the elimination, the players at Bear Claw typically honored the elimination anyway, and even if they didn't, it DID make them duck and cover, which accomplished the goal of suppressing the enemy.

[BlackAngelSS]

Yes Eric anti tank guns should totally be able to use nerfs and should have to be taken out by a nerf/Anti tank hit, or to shoot up the crew with a paintgun. Anti tank guns have to be fun to slug it out with. Ive never hit one while in my panzer Cannon yet(few people have them) But i have used a Anti tank gun against tanks and it was a blast.

The lower chrono idea is decent but i think they can just aim alot higher and still get you. not from as far though.

[Haz-Mat]

Actually what we found with lower speed is shorter distance and less accuarcy. One of the event productor had reduce the LAW speed to 230fps to 140fps this year at his events. This put most AT guys within Paintball range it gives players in tanks and bunkers a chance to take out the AT guy. The nerf also seems to fly wild toward the end of it's flight at the lower speed.

[CNCRouterman]

The point of slower chrono is just that, reduce "effective" range. Lucky or skilled shots using high angle fire earn the kill, in my opinion, but then again, I AM an Artilleryman, and high angle fire is no stranger to me.

I very much admire your AT Crew-serve PAK. Nice work. I will still express a number of colorful metaphors if you take me down with it, but still, nice work.

[Abnmp78]

Great idea with the lower chrono for LAWs. The main thing is players must understand a tank doesn't always know it's been hit. So they need to notify a ref. Simple but...... So if a limit on LAWs is used non-ATs can still take out bunkers.

[CNCRouterman]

Abnmp78, Yes, that is pretty much what I would recommend. Lower Chrono's for LAWs and other man portable AT weapons, Full Chrono for Crew Serve AT. Get a Ref's attention when possible, because the Tankers may be oblivious to your attack otherwise, every tanker crew I have met will honor a hit regardless of a ref IF they know they were legitimately hit.

Yes on allowing Man portable AT weapons to take out small bunkers/ small buildings (one floor, maybe something like 20 x 20 in size for buildings), and maybe 5 x 10 or 10 x 10 for bunkers. Crew serve and Tanks take out most bunkers, small buildings, but maybe not multi story or bigger than 30 x 30.

[BlackAngelSS]

Originally Posted by CNCRouterman

The point of slower chrono is just that, reduce "effective" range. Lucky or skilled shots using high angle fire earn the kill, in my opinion, but then again, I AM an Artilleryman, and high angle fire is no stranger to me.

I very much admire your AT Crew-serve PAK. Nice work. I will still express a number of colorful metaphors if you take me down with it, but still, nice work.

a good a/t gun and crew would be pretty rough to take out. gotta have a decent air cannon of course. but they are so damn hard to hit and easy to conceal. Im going to make some vids of my panzer and pak 40 slugging it out in training soon. should be a blast

[Abnmp78]

http://genkillpaintball.com/tankrules.shtml

Great site for rules. Like the LAW and grenade rules. Just add the reduced velocity for the LAWs and there you go.

[octane2079]

Originally Posted by BlackAngelSS

ok put aside the pain of getting shot up factor for now.

Stopping your tank,getting out, walking 2oo yards to get your card punched through enemy lines is basically a time out for the tank. There are no time outs for paint checks or anything else so the punch your card thing is a pain in the @$$. Some like it,that is fine. I dont. In the middle of a firefight i dont want to have to get out and walk over to the tank i shot to get a card punched.let the ref call it out and adios go reinsert

Also sometimes we camo up our tank real nice and the other tank cant even see where they got shot from. why would i want to get out and give away my position

Don't have to do it for tank on tank kills its only AT players. We've yet to have an issue with armor not knowing its been killed by other armor.

[dorsai]

Octane2079,

just a quick question, what sort of weapon are you guys using that can even score a hit on another tank
at 200 yards? I can see a 100 yards, mabe, that's if all you have to do is bounce one off the other guys
vehicle, but to beable to hit even a fairly large rear target at that distance is going to be more a matter of
luck, not skill.

Sincerely,

[BlackAngelSS]

Originally Posted by dorsai

Octane2079,

just a quick question, what sort of weapon are you guys using that can even score a hit on another tank
at 200 yards? I can see a 100 yards, mabe, that's if all you have to do is bounce one off the other guys
vehicle, but to beable to hit even a fairly large rear target at that distance is going to be more a matter of
luck, not skill.

Sincerely,

when i said that i meant 100 yards walking each way . but you can get over 100 yards with a good cannon but the accuracy is obviously off. don't count on many 100+ yard hits

due to the limitations of the ammunition its 1/2 skill and 1/2 luck. a well aimed shot is more likley than one that isn't well aimed to hit.

[BlackAngelSS]

Originally Posted by octane2079

Don't have to do it for tank on tank kills its only AT players. We've yet to have an issue with armor not knowing its been killed by other armor.

Ohh well then i was mistaken. I assumed that since thats what i had to do last year while using my anti tank gun. Not so bad for the tankers then. That was my biggest beef about the tank rules there. now id have to admit you guys have some of the best tank rules in the country by far." fair and balanced" . when my new Tank is done i will be back to fulda for sure!


LOOONG drive for me but worth it

[TJ Allcot]

Originally Posted by dorsai

Octane2079,

just a quick question, what sort of weapon are you guys using that can even score a hit on another tank
at 200 yards? I can see a 100 yards, mabe, that's if all you have to do is bounce one off the other guys
vehicle, but to beable to hit even a fairly large rear target at that distance is going to be more a matter of
luck, not skill.

Sincerely,

From what I've seen 100 yards is about the limit, with a bit of +/- depending on wind, angle, etc. That is provided that the cannon is chrono'd at 220 or less. I've seen Nerf's go much, much further at higher velocities. My friend George has stated that we're still waiting for one to come down, it was one of the first we fired out of his Tiger with a Supah+ valve cannon that had a massive air chamber, back in 2002 or so, lol.

[octane2079]

Originally Posted by dorsai

Octane2079,

just a quick question, what sort of weapon are you guys using that can even score a hit on another tank
at 200 yards? I can see a 100 yards, mabe, that's if all you have to do is bounce one off the other guys
vehicle, but to beable to hit even a fairly large rear target at that distance is going to be more a matter of
luck, not skill.

Sincerely,

Yea nothing we've got is shooting nerfs 200 yards unless we've somehow got a 100mph tail wind lol.

[hardboy1864]

Originally Posted by octane2079

Yea nothing we've got is shooting nerfs 200 yards unless we've somehow got a 100mph tail wind lol.

And you arch it. (spelling)