[bulzeye]

Originally Posted by raehl

Actually, it's not a fact at all - if there was one league, entry fees would likely go down, because there would be more teams over which to spread the extremely high fixed costs of running a tournament series.

The goal is to increase participation, without going broke in the process. That means trying to get the entry fees as low as possible, not higher. More participation, more value to sponsors.

- Chris

I am probably not remembering correctly but didn't PSP use to have to cap team entries back in like 05/06/07. do you remember the cost of entry back then?

[ophooligan]

Originally Posted by eforce

You forgot this part at the beginning:
NPPL/Valken: PSP paint vendors are not allowed to sell at our events.

http://68caliber.com/2013/01/15/nppl...fficial-paint/

Just read the article. No where in there does it say "psp paint venders are not allowed to sell paint at our events.".
It does say that Valken is the exclusive paint vendor but we all know they are the ONLY paint vendor willing to sell to them.
Anyone feel like starting up the old machines from GAP just for the NPPL?

I don't have a horse in this race but if you are going to put a link up don't make up things that are not in the article.

[sstiggy]

Originally Posted by ophooligan

Just read the article. No where in there does it say "psp paint venders are not allowed to sell paint at our events.".
It does say that Valken is the exclusive paint vendor but we all know they are the ONLY paint vendor willing to sell to them.
Anyone feel like starting up the old machines from GAP just for the NPPL?

I don't have a horse in this race but if you are going to put a link up don't make up things that are not in the article.

Per Gino on FB "We are Only exclusive beause no on wanted to sign up other than Valken to provided paint. We than payed for three sponserships to help keep the sport going and this event. Last year was the same story. All the other paint compaines decided to boycott the NPPL. Since the PSP won't let us in this is a way to support our customers and the sport that we love. We welcome other companies."

[jamest91]

Originally Posted by raehl

Actually, it's not a fact at all - if there was one league, entry fees would likely go down, because there would be more teams over which to spread the extremely high fixed costs of running a tournament series.

The goal is to increase participation, without going broke in the process. That means trying to get the entry fees as low as possible, not higher. More participation, more value to sponsors.

- Chris

Now let me give you some real life scenarios...

I just went whale watching yesterday and the boat had a full service food/drink bar on board. They charged $8 for a hamburger, $5 for a hotdog, $3 for any candy bars, and $2 for a small bag of chips. Hot cocoa, tea, and coffee were all $4 per packet. A can of chilled budweiser was $10. Guess what... people actually paid these prices. Why? It was the only food available.

Go to a movie theater or sport event.... (self explanatory if you have ever been to one)

There is only 1 repair store for a certain product or industry. That store can charge a higher price than normal and people will pay it.


Why could anything like this ever happen in the world? There is no competition. These are all expensive, just like paintball venues as well. Competition keeps pricing down and regulates the market. If there is no other competitor that offers similar products or experience, people only have one option, regardless of price.

This is a very likely scenario that could in fact happen if the PSP's competition does indeed go under.

[aquadgio1]

If NPPL is on life support, PSP should just buy them out and keep the same playing format and just run it smoother then the current version. Also if NPPL folds Valken will still make plenty of money from rec play. Truth is PSP and NPPL are only a small chunk of sales for these paint companies. Rec play is every weekend year around while PSP and NPPL are 8-9 tournaments combined per year. There will always be rec play/scenario.....while the we wait what the future holds for big national tournaments. I hope that they are still around for when my kids grow up, they can have fun like i did.

[eforce]

Originally Posted by ophooligan

Just read the article. No where in there does it say "psp paint venders are not allowed to sell paint at our events.".
It does say that Valken is the exclusive paint vendor but we all know they are the ONLY paint vendor willing to sell to them.
Anyone feel like starting up the old machines from GAP just for the NPPL?

I don't have a horse in this race but if you are going to put a link up don't make up things that are not in the article.

What part of a statement that Valken is the exclusive paint dealer for the NPPL leads you to believe that other paint vendors (the only real ones being PSP vendors) are not banned from selling paint in the NPPL?

Furthermore, Gino went up on facebook saying that he was furious that Valken was to be charged more than other PSP vendors if they want to participate, and that it's outrageous for the PSP to do that. This went up a day after the announcement that PSP vendors cannot sell paint at NPPL events this season. You don't see the hypocrisy in Gino throwing a fit about the PSP charging more for him to sell his paint at their events, a day after the NPPL announces PSP vendors can't sell paint at NPPL events?

Originally Posted by sstiggy

Per Gino on FB "We are Only exclusive beause no on wanted to sign up other than Valken to provided paint. We than payed for three sponserships to help keep the sport going and this event. Last year was the same story. All the other paint compaines decided to boycott the NPPL. Since the PSP won't let us in this is a way to support our customers and the sport that we love. We welcome other companies."

So here are a few things to draw from this:

1. The NPPL is in such a dismal financial situation that their major sponsor, Valken, has to pay three sponsorships just to keep the league afloat. By the way, wouldn't the extra $10,000 he's complaining about to sell at PSP events be covered by... gasp... not paying triple the NPPL sponsorship fee? That in itself is hilarious - a man that pays 300% to sell in the NPPL upset that he has to pay 150% to sell in the PSP.
2. Gino is saying the PSP won't let him in, after complaining about a phone call from the PSP letting him in.

Originally Posted by jamest91

Now let me give you some real life scenarios...

I just went whale watching yesterday and the boat had a full service food/drink bar on board. They charged $8 for a hamburger, $5 for a hotdog, $3 for any candy bars, and $2 for a small bag of chips. Hot cocoa, tea, and coffee were all $4 per packet. A can of chilled budweiser was $10. Guess what... people actually paid these prices. Why? It was the only food available.

Go to a movie theater or sport event.... (self explanatory if you have ever been to one)

There is only 1 repair store for a certain product or industry. That store can charge a higher price than normal and people will pay it.


Why could anything like this ever happen in the world? There is no competition. These are all expensive, just like paintball venues as well. Competition keeps pricing down and regulates the market. If there is no other competitor that offers similar products or experience, people only have one option, regardless of price.

This is a very likely scenario that could in fact happen if the PSP's competition does indeed go under.

That's cool, now let me give you a real life scenario relevant to our discussion. In 2008 the NPPL went bankrupt. In 2009 the PSP was free to charge whatever it wanted due to lack of competition and low and behold... prices did not increase. In fact, pro entry dropped by more than $1000 at Phoenix.

Some more information for you: The guy you quoted works every PSP event, owns the APPA, and runs NCPA. Of all the people posting in this thread, he is easily one of, if not the most well informed man present. He is also far and away most qualified to tell you what our little crystal ball has to say about the future of registration fees.

Food for thought: The PSP is, and has been, the only major national xball league in this country and by virtue of its scale remains a monopoly since its formation a decade ago. It's had ten years to jack up the prices and tell you to have fun playing xball in your backyard if you have a problem, but we haven't seen it happen, because it won't. As stated by Chris, the league is in part owned by, and heavily funded by... paintball companies. These companies don't make money on their investment if there aren't a lot of teams that can afford to attend PSP events. For the simple reason that PSP owners need teams to make money, it's fairly obvious that we won't see prohibitively high entry fees or paint charges. If anything, the sponsor dollars and team attendance go up after the NPPL dies, paving the way to juicier profit margins at potentially lower prices for the players.

[SageScout]

[swanton23]

Originally Posted by raehl

Actually, it's not a fact at all - if there was one league, entry fees would likely go down, because there would be more teams over which to spread the extremely high fixed costs of running a tournament series.

The goal is to increase participation, without going broke in the process. That means trying to get the entry fees as low as possible, not higher. More participation, more value to sponsors.

- Chris

pretty good. point. look at cup, 71 teams alone in d4rt2.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by jamest91

Now let me give you some real life scenarios...

I just went whale watching yesterday and the boat had a full service food/drink bar on board. They charged $8 for a hamburger, $5 for a hotdog, $3 for any candy bars, and $2 for a small bag of chips. Hot cocoa, tea, and coffee were all $4 per packet. A can of chilled budweiser was $10. Guess what... people actually paid these prices. Why? It was the only food available.

Analogy fail.

In your analogy, paintball is the boat ride, not the concessions. The concessions on the boat are like.... wait for it... the concessions at a paintball tournament!

You'll note that the concessions at paintball tournaments are priced similarly to concessions in other circumstances where the venue has control over on-site concession pricing. They're charging for the convenience of not having to bring/prepare your own food or leave the venue to get food. That's why the prices at a movie theater can be 5x what you'd pay at the grocery store down the street.

That doesn't mean the guy operating the boat ride can charge whatever he wants for a boat ride - EVEN if he's got the only boat in town - because people can decide they'd rather do ANY OTHER RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY. The guy with the whale watching boat is competing against the beach, or the guy with the parasailing boat, or the guy renting jet skis, etc. Or you can stay home. Nobody has to go watch whales, or play paintball, but if it's 3 PM and you haven't eaten since breakfast, you're going to want to eat.


Monopoly pricing also depends on having a market with a high barrier to entry. Otherwise raising your prices just attracts a competitor. And I think it's pretty obvious that running a paintball league has a low barrier to entry - it's so low even I run one.


Anyway, the only people one league might mean higher prices for is the sponsors, but only because those sponsors will be getting more value out of the sponsorship (more players in the same spot). One league would also increase the value of the teams too, since the value of a Pro team sponsorship isn't undercut by "discount" Pro teams in a different league. (Your sponsor can't say, you're asking for too much, I can go sponsor a pro team over there for half as much!)


One league is better for, and will almost certainly be cheaper for, the players.


- Chris

[Johnnymac631]

There is more to the whole entire thing that people forget .
It's more than leagues and sponsors and paintball at all .
These Guys are all rich . Flat out. if your a owner of any kind your surly not the guy on the corner begging for change . This is greed and money added in with the killer instinct to rid the leagues of eachother for the simplicity of competition.
Last season everyone boy Cotted paint being sold at nppl.
NPPL signed with valken exclusively but also let a smaller company called apx sell paint as well. .... Valken never had a monopoly . It was players choice to buy their paint. Furthermore, even after they said the NPPL was dyeing it still held 4 tournaments at a national level which included pro division down to d4 seven man and 5 man along with pump.

The venues may look smaller and the attendance my reflect a decrease but how come nppl still has 4 dates for a national series this year?

How come everyone's attacking Geno for being a smart business man ?

Why are we so quick to jump down eachothers throats when we all want the same thing just view it differently ?

At this point the leagues pure greed of holding the exclusive title of being the premier league blocks their vision to enstill a better format for one single league and a brighter future to advance younger teams.

There will come a time these "star" players get old and these successful companies drop out . You see it time and time again.

What worries me as a enthusiast and a player climbing the ranks is simply this:

The argueing , the politics , back door deals for a extra buck all make our sport we love look weak and flimsy like a house made of playing cards.

This is nothing more than business among wealthy men to start .

That is why there is no resolution and no peace amongst the leagues.

Blame who you like . It's money and greed that stop the sport from advancing.

[sstiggy]

Originally Posted by eforce

What part of a statement that Valken is the exclusive paint dealer for the NPPL leads you to believe that other paint vendors (the only real ones being PSP vendors) are not banned from selling paint in the NPPL?

Furthermore, Gino went up on facebook saying that he was furious that Valken was to be charged more than other PSP vendors if they want to participate, and that it's outrageous for the PSP to do that. This went up a day after the announcement that PSP vendors cannot sell paint at NPPL events this season. You don't see the hypocrisy in Gino throwing a fit about the PSP charging more for him to sell his paint at their events, a day after the NPPL announces PSP vendors can't sell paint at NPPL events?

Where is this announcement, because I have yet to read it?

[357 Productions]

Originally Posted by **GP**

I think it is cool that so many people in here are able to see the books for the PSP. Its cool that Lane shows all of you the P&L reports.

Greg for President!

[Brules]

I will say it again, the NPPL just needs to hurry up and die.

PSP becomes the main series.

All paint manufacturers should be allowed to sell their paint (equal sponsorship prices).

Expand PSP to more events to replace lost NPPL locations.

= Win for everyone

Except the NPPL, but I think the 2 series are unsustainable and one will surely have to go at some point.

[stevebski]

Originally Posted by SageScout

One of the best posts in this thread.

[Team Live Wire 911]

By knowing lane for many years. He is one of the most stand up guys I have met. I don't blame the PSP IF this is info Gino posted is correct he failed to mention that the day before this took place he became the sole paint company of the NPPL. So of course PSP is going to charge a penalty fee because of the lock out of the other paint sponsors. I don't blame the PSP or Lane for any actions done by them. Gino is trying to drag the PSP's name through the mud. Its not the first time he has tried to do so. He also has a track record of crying after he doesn't get his exact way he wants things. Gino tried to pull a fast one on Lane and the PSP and got caught in his shady dealings. So in short he is a hypocritical crying sponsor of one of the worst run And dying series in the world.

[simple_condolences]

Originally Posted by raehl

Analogy fail.

One league is better for, and will almost certainly be cheaper for, the players.


- Chris

While i agree with what youve said, you misinterpreted the analogy i think. The noat represented the painball tournament market. The concessions were paint, entry, etc.

Wasnt super clear, but i feel that was his intention for the analogy.

[*Daylight*]

Originally Posted by Brules

I will say it again, the NPPL just needs to hurry up and die.

PSP becomes the main series.

All paint manufacturers should be allowed to sell their paint (equal sponsorship prices).

Expand PSP to more events to replace lost NPPL locations.

= Win for everyone

Except the NPPL, but I think the 2 series are unsustainable and one will surely have to go at some point.

uh... no more psp events. There is no way all teams in a div. can make 6-10 events a year....

[koolguysk8r14]

Raehl beat me to it. Wrong analogy. The PSP is the boat ride. Just because there is one boat, doesn't mean he can jack up the price to whatever he wants. No one forces you to get on the boat

[ophooligan]

Originally Posted by eforce

What part of a statement that Valken is the exclusive paint dealer for the NPPL leads you to believe that other paint vendors (the only real ones being PSP vendors) are not banned from selling paint in the NPPL?


Some more information for you: The guy you quoted works every PSP event, owns the APPA, and runs NCPA. Of all the people posting in this thread, he is easily one of, if not the most well informed man present. He is also far and away most qualified to tell you what our little crystal ball has to say about the future of registration fees.

You are not seeing my point. You are making up statements that are not in the article you quoted.
Have you seen a contract between Valken and the NPPL? Does it state contractually that Valken has the exclusive? Or, do they just have it because Kee/GI have told the NPPL to kick rocks and the NPPL knows that Valken is the only one left and therefor the “exclusive” dealer.
I prefer the PSP but as a Mod on this forum people expect you not to make inflammatory statements that you do not know to be a fact. You sir do not know what you said to be a fact.

However you are correct about what you said about Raehl. Of all the people that have posted here he probably knows the most of the story.

[bulzeye]

Originally Posted by eforce

Furthermore, Gino went up on facebook saying that he was furious that Valken was to be charged more than other PSP vendors if they want to participate, and that it's outrageous for the PSP to do that. This went up a day after the announcement that PSP vendors cannot sell paint at NPPL events this season. You don't see the hypocrisy in Gino throwing a fit about the PSP charging more for him to sell his paint at their events, a day after the NPPL announces PSP vendors can't sell paint at NPPL events?

show me the link where the NPPL stated that "PSP vendors will not be allowed to sell paint at NPPL events" NPPL offered to all paint vendors so they didn't ban anybody like you say.

if i'm not mistaken nppl pro teams were allowed to bring in their paint last year even after Valken was the only paint sponsor?

is the PSP going to offer the same gratitude towards Valken pro team?

[bulzeye]

Originally Posted by Team Live Wire 911

By knowing lane for many years. He is one of the most stand up guys I have met. I don't blame the PSP IF this is info Gino posted is correct he failed to mention that the day before this took place he became the sole paint company of the NPPL. So of course PSP is going to charge a penalty fee because of the lock out of the other paint sponsors. I don't blame the PSP or Lane for any actions done by them. Gino is trying to drag the PSP's name through the mud. Its not the first time he has tried to do so. He also has a track record of crying after he doesn't get his exact way he wants things. Gino tried to pull a fast one on Lane and the PSP and got caught in his shady dealings. So in short he is a hypocritical crying sponsor of one of the worst run And dying series in the world.

he didn't run to the nppl and say i want to be the only paint vendor, all the usual paint vendors were offered a spot