[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by JcKa

Explain further.

White people look at Wrights comments and think "Wow blacks have a problem with white men" because of his inflammatory rhetoric.

Black people listen to Wrights comments and think "White people are racist and want to hold me down" because he is telling them that oppression from whites is the reason why they are not and can not be successful.

This causes whites to be more suspicious of blacks and blacks to be more suspicious of whites, promotes an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides, and strokes racial tensions.

If Wright would choose to take the racial baiting out of his speeches and say for example "Rich, greedy people" as opposed to "rich, WHITE people" he would still be engaging in class warfare, but at least he wouldn't be stirring racial tensions on both sides even further while doing it.

[ipoppedtimmy]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

White people look at Wrights comments and think "Wow blacks have a problem with white men" because of his inflammatory rhetoric.

Black people listen to Wrights comments and think "White people are racist and want to hold me down" because he is telling them that oppression from whites is the reason why they are not and can not be successful.

This causes whites to be more suspicious of blacks and blacks to be more suspicious of whites, promotes an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides, and strokes racial tensions.

If Wright would choose to take the racial baiting out of his speeches and say for example "Rich, greedy people" as opposed to "rich, WHITE people" he would still be engaging in class warfare, but at least he wouldn't be stirring racial tensions on both sides even further while doing it.

I'm glad that you and I can both reasonably agree that Wright's comments were not the best things that could have been said. I agree that some of his claims are wrong (in an epistemological sense, not a moral one), and divisive.

However, what I don't see is where Wright's comments are racist. Just as the other graph depicted, I'm lost as to how someone can make that connection.

[kowz76]

Maybe racial tension needs to be stirred so that it actually takes center stage. Racism is definitely still around in the world today, and that sickens me. Why would anyone hate someone else just because of the color of their skin?

[shaka zulu]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

This causes whites to be more suspicious of blacks and blacks to be more suspicious of whites, promotes an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides, and strokes racial tensions.

If Wright would choose to take the racial baiting out of his speeches and say for example "Rich, greedy people" as opposed to "rich, WHITE people" he would still be engaging in class warfare, but at least he wouldn't be stirring racial tensions on both sides even further while doing it.

Wrights comments caused nothing. They just brought a lot of issues out of hiding. It's like one of my favorite sayings, "Bad situations don't bring out the worst in people, they bring out what's really in them." The Wright situation is no different. As far as we've come in cultural relations, we're still miles from home.

[bleedonstage]

and where is the option on this poll of ipoppedtimmy deserves a severe kick in the nuts for making 3 of the same threads.

Give it up, Racism exists in society... So what, make an example to world by stopping it with yourself... hate will always happen because every one of us thinks they are better in some way than the next..

The problem with the world is that we always want a change, but forget that if we want to change the world, we must let it start with ourselves.

[Furious Ge0rge]

I strongly agreed, but there's more to it than just 'blacks letting it go'. Racism in the past few years has been a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think my man Jefferson can sum up the issue of the perceived racism Blacks feel today in a short sentence;

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.

Fact is, a lot of black community leaders (See: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton) MAKE issues racist, when they're not. Just because a black woman was raped, doesn't mean it's a race issue, necessarily. But they'll make it one. If Sharpton and Jackson find a person of color in distress, they'll immediately make an issue racist. So yes, I strongly agree with the poll, but it goes a bit deeper, since there are instances of real racism in the country, and still a ton of people who are still racist.

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by shaka zulu

Wrights comments caused nothing. They just brought a lot of issues out of hiding.

No, they caused exactly what I pointed out in my post above. I don't think I could be more clear about his words increasing suspicion and tension on both sides of the aisle. Wright uses inflammatory speech which affects the way that those who listen to him (and either hold him in esteem or derision) shape their world view.

He is an example to many people in his community and they look to him for guidance and leadership. He uses this opportunity to cause division between whites and blacks by generalizing and demonizing whites as the problem, and causes his community to be more apt to blame their problems on whites, as this is the excuse that has been taught to them.

To others that are not within his community he is looked on as a representative of the community as a whole. These people will look at him saying things like "Rich white people are the problem" and "Damn America" and pass the whole community off as a bunch of hating loonies.

I understand that there's already tensions existing among both groups, but if you don't see how this widens emnity and creates more division then I don't see how you can have a firm grasp on reality. You'll have to explain to me in more detail what I'm missing here if you think I'm wrong.

It's like one of my favorite sayings, "Bad situations don't bring out the worst in people, they bring out what's really in them." The Wright situation is no different. As far as we've come in cultural relations, we're still miles from home.

I don't agree with this either. Bad situations can cause a person to change. I refuse to believe that everybody down in New Orleans was a looter just waiting for a chance to cause a ruckus. Stress, anger, lust, fear, hunger, etc. will cause people to do things that they wouldn't normally do nor dream of doing. It is up to us to make sure that we do not crack when confronted by these things, and avoid the possibility of being confronted by them to the greatest of our abilities.

I can elaborate on that if you'd like.

[JcKa]

Originally Posted by Oconnore

Well I didn't think so either, but here is your post...

Your words (underlined) suggest that the oppressed gain dignity from oppressing others.

This would suggest that they view oppression as a source of dignity (otherwise, how would oppression of others help them maintain dignity?), and would likewise associate their oppressors with that dignity as well.

Yes, when they are oppressed, they lose their dignity, however oppressing others reaffirms in their minds a sense of power or control, and thus dignity/superiority. Oppression in itself is not a source of dignity, however it is a vehicle through which one can attain a twisted sense of dignity. They would not associate their oppressors with dignity, unless all of them psychologically adapted the mindset that their oppressors were truly superior, however at that point they would have little motivation to oppress others, as they would not have the capability to recognize that their dignity is being taken.

[JcKa]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

White people look at Wrights comments and think "Wow blacks have a problem with white men" because of his inflammatory rhetoric.

Only if those white people actually believe Wright speaks for all black people in his sermons.

Black people listen to Wrights comments and think "White people are racist and want to hold me down" because he is telling them that oppression from whites is the reason why they are not and can not be successful.

That's quite a large assumption.

This causes whites to be more suspicious of blacks and blacks to be more suspicious of whites, promotes an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides, and strokes racial tensions.

Only if the assumption that all blacks take his statements that way and all whites take his statements that way is that true (and if they did, they're already racist to begin with).


If Wright would choose to take the racial baiting out of his speeches and say for example "Rich, greedy people" as opposed to "rich, WHITE people" he would still be engaging in class warfare, but at least he wouldn't be stirring racial tensions on both sides even further while doing it.

I agree with your last statement, however he still has to fill an audience, and to be honest, if you're going to engage in class warfare, it's nearly impossible to do so without mentioning the obvious statistics concerning race and position within the classes.

[shaka zulu]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

I understand that there's already tensions existing among both groups, but if you don't see how this widens emnity and creates more division then I don't see how you can have a firm grasp on reality. You'll have to explain to me in more detail what I'm missing here if you think I'm wrong.



I don't agree with this either. Bad situations can cause a person to change. I refuse to believe that everybody down in New Orleans was a looter just waiting for a chance to cause a ruckus. Stress, anger, lust, fear, hunger, etc. will cause people to do things that they wouldn't normally do nor dream of doing. It is up to us to make sure that we do not crack when confronted by these things, and avoid the possibility of being confronted by them to the greatest of our abilities.

I can elaborate on that if you'd like.

You seem quite level headed and I'm enjoying this exchange.....I'll happily answer these and elaborate on my position this evening......work just got too busy for a lengthy post. Lol.

[PDXMark]

'Rally' is the best racing "ever"!

[tonysk83]

I somewhat agreed. Some blacks can't let it go, but I'd say a large percentage have let it go. It seems though the most outspoken blacks are the ones that can't let it go, and the majority that let it go don't let their voices be heard.

[shaka zulu]

Originally Posted by tonysk83

I somewhat agreed. Some blacks can't let it go, but I'd say a large percentage have let it go. It seems though the most outspoken blacks are the ones that can't let it go, and the majority that let it go don't let their voices be heard.

Would you have compassion for a woman who is in her 40's and has been raped, watched her family murdered in front of her eyes and is healthier than when it first happened but still has some anger issues and pain associated with her ordeal?

[timmyt]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

If Wright would choose to take the racial baiting out of his speeches and say for example "Rich, greedy people" as opposed to "rich, WHITE people" he would still be engaging in class warfare, but at least he wouldn't be stirring racial tensions on both sides even further while doing it.

I 100% agree with this statement.

It's a class issue. Many people confuse class issues with race issues.

[shaka zulu]

Nothing in life is generally as simple as one issue. It's actually a mix of class and race/cultural issues.....and based on many of the wonderful (no sarcasm) responses on here, somewhat of an age issue as well I'm thinking.

[Adema3412]

Originally Posted by timmyt

I 100% agree with this statement.

It's a class issue. Many people confuse class issues with race issues.

A post from a previous thread that no one commented on, but is relevant to this


But let me approach this from a different side.

What it boiled down to was white people as a majority who constantly see the affirmation of whiteness reinforced as a positive quality in America do not take pride in their whiteness anymore, because while whiteness is reinforced in advertisements, television, in their politicians, other races are no longer believed inferior because of their race. White Americans while still believing themselves superior, base their superiority in socioeconomic and cultural terms, which although tied to race are not intrinsic to race. Which is why no one here as said I am proud to be white, because they separate being rich from being white, they separate being important from being white.

While the opposite is true for many minorities, they are brought together by what sociologists call bounded solidarity; being in an alien culture they are brought together by their common traits and characteristics. This is especially prevalent in any case where the minority is physically bounded or segregated from the white, majority community. For instance in the inner city where blacks generally live together in very dense numbers, a community which is brought together by bounded solidarity is formed. There are negatives associated with this, such as resentment associated with members of the community who want to leave it, but what I wish to show is that the reason the black community has pride in itself is because of their position inside of an alien culture. They come to see poverty as an issue of race, because all those around them are black and poor and those outside are rich and white.

If anything needs clarification just ask, because I know I was vague in some points.

So while it is ultimately a class issue, these class distinctions are rooted in past racial problems. It isn't a coincidence that black people are poorer on average than their white counterparts and that up until WWII many blacks were still in an kind of neo-slavery and that up until the 1960's blacks were not equal citizens under the law. Black poverty stems from black inequality and while it is ultimately a class issue today it still has racial roots. Is it incredibly productive to blame these racial roots, no. But it isn't something that can easily be forgotten, especially when one looks around and sees themselves surrounded by poor blacks.

[travis2k2rf]

Strongly disagree.

That statement is a part of why racism still exists, but I would say the leading reason is simply because people, for whatever reason (most of them not valid), continue to hate others. They grow up hearing it from their parents and their peers and it is "normal" to them. They are a product of their environment I suppose.

[timmyt]

Originally Posted by Adema3412

A post from a previous thread that no one commented on, but is relevant to this


But let me approach this from a different side.

What it boiled down to was white people as a majority who constantly see the affirmation of whiteness reinforced as a positive quality in America do not take pride in their whiteness anymore, because while whiteness is reinforced in advertisements, television, in their politicians, other races are no longer believed inferior because of their race. White Americans while still believing themselves superior, base their superiority in socioeconomic and cultural terms, which although tied to race are not intrinsic to race. Which is why no one here as said I am proud to be white, because they separate being rich from being white, they separate being important from being white.

While the opposite is true for many minorities, they are brought together by what sociologists call bounded solidarity; being in an alien culture they are brought together by their common traits and characteristics. This is especially prevalent in any case where the minority is physically bounded or segregated from the white, majority community. For instance in the inner city where blacks generally live together in very dense numbers, a community which is brought together by bounded solidarity is formed. There are negatives associated with this, such as resentment associated with members of the community who want to leave it, but what I wish to show is that the reason the black community has pride in itself is because of their position inside of an alien culture. They come to see poverty as an issue of race, because all those around them are black and poor and those outside are rich and white.

If anything needs clarification just ask, because I know I was vague in some points.

So while it is ultimately a class issue, these class distinctions are rooted in past racial problems. It isn't a coincidence that black people are poorer on average than their white counterparts and that up in till WWII many blacks were still in an kind of neo-slavery and that up until the 1960's blacks were not equal citizens under the law. Black poverty stems from black inequality and while it is ultimately a class issue today it still has racial roots. Is it incredibly productive to blame these racial roots, no. But it isn't something that can easily be forgotten, especially when one looks around and sees themselves surrounded by poor blacks.

I can agree with that. I know it's hard to "forget and move on". I know that it was only 60 years ago we allowed black people to even share the same water fountain as whites, many of which are still alive today.

[corporationpaintball]

Originally Posted by JcKa

I strongly disagree.

.

Racism is evil.

[shaka zulu]

Originally Posted by timmyt

I can agree with that. I know it's hard to "forget and move on". I know that it was only 60 years ago we allowed black people to even share the same water fountain as whites, many of which are still alive today.

This is the exact point I made on another forum. My father is only 57 and has some serious stories from his teens. Heck, the Tuskegee experiments just ended in 1972...only two years before I was born. Then you have ol' Reagen and Ollie North and their pal Noriega piling literal "tons" of cocaine into poor neighborhoods thanks to upstanding citizens like Ricky Ross. That's why I used the example above in my previous post. To me the root of modern day prejudice among the middle and lower class stems from the misguided concepts of "tolerance" and the ideal "colorblind" fallacy.

When we begin to seek to understand each other instead of "tolerate" each other like one tolerates a debilitating illness, or a boss or coworker you DON'T like then we'll see some gains. When we stop ignoring the fact that there are many cultural differences between us which can be a great strength and stop allowing it to divide us, instead of this silly "i'm colorblind" garbage then we can make more progress. Bottomline is that nothing becomes stronger from ignoring what is true and in front of your face. Things become stronger when you see and recognize things for what they are, learn from them and learn how to make them work for you.

[corporationpaintball]

Originally Posted by shaka zulu

This is the exact point I made on another forum. My father is only 57 and has some serious stories from his teens. Heck, the Tuskegee experiments just ended in 1972...only two years before I was born. Then you have ol' Reagen and Ollie North and their pal Noriega piling literal "tons" of cocaine into poor neighborhoods thanks to upstanding citizens like Ricky Ross. That's why I used the example above in my previous post. To me the root of modern day prejudice among the middle and lower class stems from the misguided concepts of "tolerance" and the ideal "colorblind" fallacy.

When we begin to seek to understand each other instead of "tolerate" each other like one tolerates a debilitating illness, or a boss or coworker you DON'T like then we'll see some gains. When we stop ignoring the fact that there are many cultural differences between us which can be a great strength and stop allowing it to divide us, instead of this silly "i'm colorblind" garbage then we can make more progress. Bottomline is that nothing becomes stronger from ignoring what is true and in front of your face. Things become stronger when you see and recognize things for what they are, learn from them and learn how to make them work for you.

I couldn't agree more, for a great post.

-CP