[custar]

Originally Posted by CNCRouterman

Regarding Spartacus, no, this was not my article for or against a topic. If you wish to use Spartacus as evidence, then provide suitable links to appropriate threads. I have plenty of things to do research on for my own projects. Not trying to be a snit, just putting the burden of proof back on you. You provide the links, and I am willing to review it. Don't ask me to sign up for yet another web forum, and then learn their structure, and then search their forums for something I am not even sure what I am looking for...

It would be my burden of proof if I wanted to persuade you. Like you, I have quite a few irons in the fire and don't have any incentive to do that homework if your interest level is not high enough to sign up for a forum. If your interest rises, go to http://forums.ddayadventurepark.com/ and post your questions or PM to global (game coordinator at the last I heard his title) or PM Spartacus.

Since you posted, Dale has provided information regarding the insurance, so that is another avenue if you want to dig deeper.

HAND.

custar

[CNCRouterman]

Well now. Let's back up just a bit and review the stated topic for this thread. \
---
Why aren't nerf launchers used at D-Day...
---
In post number 66, you assert that a wooden dowel was used at D-Day, and that precipitated the ban on Nerfs. You were called to substantiate that assertion.

A one word answer "Spartacus" to Dale's revisiting of that point is not much of an answer.

Suggesting that anyone NOT willing to accept that as a valid response should then go looking for more information is, well, less than I expected from your other, more lucid responses.

One of the things that I respect about Dale is that he backs up his answers rather well, opinion or factual assertion, either way, the answer comes with something that can be readily evaluated. On the rare occasion where his point of view or data is found to be in error, he has no trouble owning it and moving on. I seriously respect that attitude.

Both you (custar) and robot0ninja carried a lively debate and other than an occasional testy quibble shot across the bow, kept it together pretty well. The exception to your otherwise reasonable debating style remains the unsupported one word argument.

So, based solely on the merits of this thread, there was no wooden dowel incident, as there is no supporting evidence. All reference thus far is at best 2nd or 3rd generation hearsay.

This seems to me to be a core issue for this particular thread. Either the dowel incident happened, and thus it should be verifiable, and likely documented, or the incident was something else entirely, and somehow morphed into the current story through repeated tellings. If there was an arbitrary decision to ban Nerfs for personal preferences of the field owners, then fine, their field, their rules, but creating a bogus story to justify it simply impings upon the integrity of the ones floating the story.

At the end of the day, the field owners get to choose how they run their fields. Those of us who wish to effect a change in any given rule set, need to present logical, compelling reasons for the field owner to consider making the change. Some things will simply never change at some fields, this may simply be one of those cases. If the rule set in question has enough support, it will be adopted by other fields, and thats where the players will go. If it is a big enough deal, it will impact the player volume of the recalcitrant field owner, who may then elect to reconsider his position for economic reasons.

Clearly to date, D-Day is doing enough right that they do not feel it necessary to review this particular rule. As a follicularly impaired pharoh was purported to have said (after suitable Goggle Translations of course) "So let it be written, so let it be done".

[custar]

I am not sure exactly what you want out of me or why. I have not asserted I was there when the incident happened. The person I know who does have first hand information does not post here, and I can't think of any reason to induce him to take out an account here to do so. Dale was able to track down the information that confirms the insurance on the field, dispelling one of the allegations in this thread. I have no contact with Larry Cossio nor any leverage to induce him to come here and post either.

So, if this was a court of law, I would admit I have no direct proof of the wooden dowel incident. If that means you choose to believe it did not happen, so be it. However, before we leave the subject, do you really think the field owner elected to disallow nerfs just in order to sell an additional 8.5 cases of paint (85 total AT players on both sides * 200 rounds each / 2,000 rounds per case)? In fact, when the decision was made to go to MIAT only, not even that many AT were allowed. Balance that against the added logistics required to keep those AT rounds separate from all the other paint at the event, staff who has to repackage cases into baggies with 200 rounds each, making special arrangements for AT paint in the mini-games, etc. It seems to me there are a lot more efficient ways to generate the sale of 8.5 additional cases of paint.

If you make it out of Tennessee to Oklahoma or Dallas/Fort Worth Adventure Park, LMK and I will hook you up with a MIAT so you can see how it plays.

custar

[CNCRouterman]

Thank you for the kind offer. I have yet to justify a trip to Texas, though it is on my list.

The "What I wanted" part was a link or direct reference to the event (wooden dowel incident in question). A link backing up a cut and paste would suffice.

The "why" part: Just as your acquaintance does not have reason nor incentive to post here, I do not have reason nor incentive to post, or more specifically, search there.

Your point regarding AT paint sales is good enough for me, I agree with your logic there.

After I posted my last message I was thinking that I should have just dropped it and moved on, so please accept my apologies.

I also apologize for sounding or implying any "legaleze". I was trying for hard logic, and failed.

The closing acronym HAND was intended to take any sting out of my post, but I fear it may have been interpreted as condescending.

So, in closing, any direct links to the "offending incident" would be appreciated, but I won't get bent out of shape if you are tired of this topic.

[custar]

Originally Posted by CNCRouterman

Thank you for the kind offer. I have yet to justify a trip to Texas, though it is on my list.

The "What I wanted" part was a link or direct reference to the event (wooden dowel incident in question). A link backing up a cut and paste would suffice.

The "why" part: Just as your acquaintance does not have reason nor incentive to post here, I do not have reason nor incentive to post, or more specifically, search there.

Your point regarding AT paint sales is good enough for me, I agree with your logic there.

After I posted my last message I was thinking that I should have just dropped it and moved on, so please accept my apologies.

I also apologize for sounding or implying any "legaleze". I was trying for hard logic, and failed.

The closing acronym HAND was intended to take any sting out of my post, but I fear it may have been interpreted as condescending.

So, in closing, any direct links to the "offending incident" would be appreciated, but I won't get bent out of shape if you are tired of this topic.

I have no hard feelings over your post. I did not take any part of your post as condescending. If I was upset, I would not have extended the offer. If I ever come across a direct link to the wooden dowel incident (and my memory of this thread has not fallen victim to old age forgetfulness), I will post it.

Until then, best wishes.

custar

[Posey899]

Here's the tall and the short guys: Dday runs MIAT AT. If that's not something you're into, don't play AT at Dday. 45 AT players, 40 heavy weapons operators, and 40 tankers seem to be fine with it year in and year out. If nerf's the only way you can have fun, find another game. Ask yourself this question: Do you really think all this bluster about how and why nerf was banned from Dday or who the insurance carrier might be is going to change the status quo? No. It's not. Accept it or not, Dday will continue to host the largest amount of PB armor around. If you only like nerf, play as something other than AT. If AT is the thing that gets your blood pumping, try MIAT. I have no problem filling my billets for AT players, and regularly have to turn folks away due to the AT cap. If you want to know more about how AT works at Dday, feel free to ask Custar or myself about it. We'd love to have you come out, but this back and forth about insurance carriers and wooden dowels is a pointless expression of your frustration that you can't seem to get your way. If you want a huge game that allows nerf and draws huge amounts of armor, buy 1000+ acres and start building. Until then, come join us at Dday and try something different than you're used to. You might actually have some fun.

Posey
CO 899th Tank Destroyers, OK Dday

[Tusken Raider]

I am thinking that MIAT will wind up being the future for AT gunners. Cheaper in the long run. Now tank on tank battles may just stay nerf vs nerf.

[Abnmp78]

Question- How do they select who will and won't be a AT gunner? At D day or any other field?
Are the MIATs single shot or 10 round stock tube feed?

As far as the comments about the AT PB. A field by me was considering using both nerf and MIAT. But didn't due to the logistics of a few cases of a diff color for the MIATs.

[custar]

Originally Posted by Abnmp78

Are the MIATs single shot or 10 round stock tube feed?

At OK D-Day, MIAT are 10-round tube feed only. At Red Dawn and and Black Hawk Down (both played at the same field), they are single feed but have a 20' kill radius to simulate RPG's and LAW's.

Originally Posted by Abnmp78

Question- How do they select who will and won't be a AT gunner? At D day or any other field?

Contact the command staff for the side or the unit commander for which you want to play. It is largely first come-first served.

custar

[dorsai]

At D-Day there are caps on how many AT gunners each side
can have. Ideally both sides would field that number, but it's
not always easy to find players willing to play that role. On
the Allied side the majority of AT gunners belong to the 899th
Blackcats, a unit named after a true WW II AT outfit. Back
then of course AT hunting was done using tracked vehicles,
rather than by ground pounders armed with Bazookas.

Sincerely,

[dorsai]

Here's another example of what goes on during the week leading
up to the main event at D-Day. This film was produced by our CEF
unit. Some of you may already know all about combined arms, but
for those who don't consider this as a free lesson.

For anyone interested in learning more about the CEF head over to
their website - http://cefpaintball.com/




Sincerely,

[Smakman]

I know that the wooden nerf incident DID NOT happen. There was an incident that the story stemmed from which happened at another very large event out east. I personally tracked down the tank gunner and spoke with him on the phone. The plexiglass window in their tank DID get broken by something but as far as they knew, someone may have thrown a rock. No wooden nerf or dowel was witnessed or recovered. This was from the mouth of the tank gunner himself. Now that is out of the way, the owner of any field has the right to run it as they see fit with the rules that they see fit. Just don't BS your player base, be honest about it. I am not a big fan of OK D-Day myself. I went in 2003, 2004, and 2009 and it seemed like all of the same issues existed that could have been resolved by spending a little money.....well....maybe more than a little but that and the extra fee at the gate that was charged when I had already paid my fee to play was really annoying to me. Forcing me to pay more to get onto the grounds after I had already paid to play in the game was tantamount to extortion IMO. Have said all of that, OK D-Day is a great value IF you intend to play the entire week or at least more than a couple of days of it. I doubt I will ever go back myself but I still tell people who have never been to try it once for the experience.

[dorsai]

Smakman,

Fully agtree wityh all you said, save your comments about the camping fee.
Fee helps them cover the cost of buying garbage truck and collecting and hauling
tons of garbage daily to county landfill, as well as cost of maintaining bathrooms
and water supply. BTW, that fee is now incorporated into cost of admission and
the water supply no longer smells like rotten eggs, so I guess at least some of that
money everyone paid went to something good afterall.

[HarlyHunk]

Smakman,
I was also a bit miffed, when I had to pay the extra $5 for the camping fee, until it was explained to me. Not everyone who comes to the D-Day event, plays in the event, but everyone who comes to the event creates a certain amount of trash and uses the services provided in the camping area, whether they are staying or just visiting.

Since you were here last, there have been a great many changes to the overall event. If you would care to come and participate in 2013, I invite you and your friends to come and play as CEF troops.

Cheers

[Boom Master]

For a $5 camping fee, I would expect them to pump out or rent enough porta potties to hold the supply. Clean them once a day and provide TP. I'd rather go in the woods than use what I saw several years ago. Has it gotten any better in 5 years?

[custar]

HH is right about non-players generating a considerable amount of debris and waste that has to be dealt with. IMHO, the $5.00 fee should have only been charged for those who came to the event but did not pay the registration fee.

BM, over the last two years, I have noticed each Port-a-potty has TP. I can't speak to the pumping as my . . . visits . . . were irregular.

custar

[HarlyHunk]

My international players keep an eagle eye on the conditions of the potties. This past year, I noticed that they were cleaned and filled with TP each day. I actually got zero complaints from them, concerning the potties.

Cheers

[Smakman]

Originally Posted by custar

HH is right about non-players generating a considerable amount of debris and waste that has to be dealt with. IMHO, the $5.00 fee should have only been charged for those who came to the event but did not pay the registration fee.

custar

That was exactly my opinion, especially since I wasn't even camping. Not saying I will never return. Never say never. I did have a good time save trying to keep up with my son. He was 11 then and everywhere!

[dorsai]

Haha, sounds like it's time you made it back out there.
Yes, things have gotten better since you were there,
but is it as nice as staying at the local Ramada, no.

For starters the entire camp area is now littered with
porta-potties, which as you suggest are serviced daily.
In addition they've built another shower/bathroom facility
just south of the speedball fields. They've also revamped
the original bathroom so that people taking showers now
have some privacy. They also replaced all those old toilets
and best of all they've installed a new airation system which
removed most of the sulfur smell we all complained about.

All in all I'd say they've done a good job of addressing the
issues you noted.

BTW, they're going to drop handing out CO2 next June as
the number of users has dropped, not to mention the cost
in terms of infrastructure and personnel. Look instead for
them to continue offering multiple HPA refill stations at
many of the designated dead zones.

[JESTERTLS]

I'm not the biggest fan of D-Day. For me it was an alright game, but for the expendatures of hauling a tank on a two thousand mile round trip with stupid gas prices. So extra fee's tacked on made a difference to me.

But I will say, I do not take issue with the clean up fee. When I went, they just charged the ones that camped. I didnt camp. But I do know I contributed to the waste. We ate and drank, and threw away a decent bit of trash like everyone else. So I can fully understand that charge being implimented.

You can add how much money they take in on registration. Seems like alot until you start breaking down all the people they pay, and its alot of people to make a game that size happen. You can also add up the amount they take in for the clean up/camping fee. Again it adds up but then again take into account of what its used for.

Over all, I think D-Day is a value for the price. A week long event of mini games and speedball and then one of the two largest scenario games in the world. I had a an alright time. We had some tanking issues but that only concerned us tankers. Over all, all of our team that went out had a good time and didnt regret going. So it was worth the fee's paid.

[Boom Master]

Good to hear.....