[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

Taking advantage of new players does not help our sport.

Yes, new players should be treated with respect and made sure they have a good time. They should not be taken advantage of.

Originally Posted by Tempted

And raping people on price gouging pretty much means only the wealthy are able to enjoy a full day of paintball. Its a despicable practice that drives players away from our sport.

It's only price gouging if people feel they must spend a lot of money. We actually rely on them not wanting to spend a lot of money. This is why the system works.

I guess if we made everyone buy a case at our prices, I would agree with you. But not only do we not make them do that, we admittedly try to make sure they don't feel the need to buy a case (or anywhere near it). That way they spend a similar amount that they would at other fields, but get to play in an environment more to their liking.

[Way2scary4u]

Originally Posted by Tempted

What the hell are you talking about? The field isn't losing money selling paint at $45 a case, it just isn't bending its customers over. I don't shoot much paint because I aim. New players average 500 rounds a day. Since most legitimate fields give you a bag with the package, they usually don't have to spend much more.

If you limit the players to one bag per day then they will leave when they finish that bag. This would do exactly the same things as you are trying to do, the only difference is you wouldn't be raking in insane prices. You wouldn't lose money, you just wouldn't be taking advantage of new players and would make less. Your business ethics suck hugely.

Out field is the only field for another hour and a half and they don't have ridiculous prices. I would say that $55 for a case of paint and air and entry is pretty good. Field that would charge note than that are just steeling people's money. They get a case of paint for ways way cheaper because of a shipment every weekend and they buy in bulk so I agree with you

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Way2scary4u

Out field is the only field for another hour and a half and they don't have ridiculous prices. I would say that $55 for a case of paint and air and entry is pretty good. Field that would charge note than that are just steeling people's money. They get a case of paint for ways way cheaper because of a shipment every weekend and they buy in bulk so I agree with you

Yeah but that idiot is selling paint at $10 for 100 rounds. Pure robbery, truly disgusting to take advantage of new players like that. And his $30 entry fee doesn't include any paint. So after you get screwed by paying $30 and getting nothing, you get screwed again by paying for paint at a rate of $200 per case at $10 per 100. So you want to save a little money and buy a bag instead? Oh that's great, they only charge $45 for a bag. Not $45 for a case like a good field, but $45 a bag. They are taking advantage of new players, plain and simple, and need to be shut down. The only thing I hope for is all fields who carry on this despicable practice get shut down after losing every penny that they have stolen from paintballers.

If you are curious what I'm going on about, take a look at this:


Rental Package

$30.00 / person
$25.00 / with deposit ($10 deposit and another $15 on game day)

Includes:

Field Fee from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (trained referees supplied)
Equipment rental (incl. Semi-auto marker, mask, all day CO2)
Camouflage Top
Jumbo Dog & pop for lunch


Own Gear Package

$20.00 / person
$15.00 / with deposit ($10 deposit and another $5 on game day)

Includes:

Field Fee from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (trained referees supplied)
All day HPA or CO2 (while playing - not available after last game)
Jumbo Dog & pop for lunch


* Please note that players with own gear must have effective barrel plug or barrel sock.
(Own Gear Package does not include use of TNT clothing or equipment of any sort)


Group Pricing Specials

Groups up to:
10 players - $200 (Private group option not available) - (as low as $20/player)
15 players - $270 (Private group option not available) - (as low as $18/player)
20 players - $350 ($450 for private group option) - (as low as $17/player)
30 players - $450 ($540 for private group option) - (as low as $15/player)
40 players - $500 ($600 for private group option) - (as low as $12.50/player)
60 players - $600 ($720 for private group option) - (as low as $10/player)

* Each player has use of up to 5 refereed fields, marker, mask, and camouflage top, and lunch
* All prices include 12% HST
* Must be prepaid at least 7 days in advance
* No refunds
* No discount for not needing rental gear
* Cannot be combined with any other special offer or coupons
* Paintballs not included but must be purchased at TNT Paintball


Want to play free and/or get some free paintballs on your next visit to TNT Paintball?

Organize a group of players and as the organizer, you will receive Group Organizer incentives. As us for details.

Note: All above prices include tax.


Pricelist
(Subject to change without notice)

Paintballs *

100 / $10.00
500 / $45.00
1,000 / $85.00
2,000 / $160.00


* TNT Paintball is a Field Paint Only (FPO) facility. Please do not bring any outside paintballs; their use is not permitted. Violators will be asked to leave immediately with no refund!


Miscellaneous Prices

Camouflage Top (rental - free with rental pkg.) $5.00
Camouflage Pants (rental) $7.00
Neck Guard (rental) $1.00
CO2 tank (20oz) - Rent $3.00
Barrel Sock - Rent $2.00
Barrel Socks - Purchase $10.00
200 Round Hopper (gravity feed) $14.00
Elbows (clear plastic) $5.00
9 volt Batteries $4.00 (2 for $7.00)
AA Batteries $1.00 (4 for $3.00)
TNT T-shirts $15.00
TNT Hoodies $30.00
TNT Hats $15.00
TNT Thermos Cups (Stainless steel) $15.00


Food & Snacks

Jumbo Dog (available at lunch time only) $2.00
Pop (can) $1.50
Chips $1.50
Chocolate Bar $1.50
Coffee $1.50

[byarosh201]

Thanks for the clarification on his prices. Pure robbery is right!

[Soul06]

Originally Posted by Tempted

If you are curious what I'm going on about, take a look at this:


Rental Package

$30.00 / person
$25.00 / with deposit ($10 deposit and another $15 on game day)

Includes:

Field Fee from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (trained referees supplied)
Equipment rental (incl. Semi-auto marker, mask, all day CO2)
Camouflage Top
Jumbo Dog & pop for lunch


Own Gear Package

$20.00 / person
$15.00 / with deposit ($10 deposit and another $5 on game day)

Includes:

Field Fee from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (trained referees supplied)
All day HPA or CO2 (while playing - not available after last game)
Jumbo Dog & pop for lunch



* Each player has use of up to 5 refereed fields, marker, mask, and camouflage top, and lunch
* All prices include 12% HST
* Must be prepaid at least 7 days in advance
* No refunds
* No discount for not needing rental gear
* Cannot be combined with any other special offer or coupons
* Paintballs not included but must be purchased at TNT Paintball


Want to play free and/or get some free paintballs on your next visit to TNT Paintball?

Organize a group of players and as the organizer, you will receive Group Organizer incentives. As us for details.

Note: All above prices include tax.


Pricelist
(Subject to change without notice)

Paintballs *

100 / $10.00
500 / $45.00
1,000 / $85.00
2,000 / $160.00


* TNT Paintball is a Field Paint Only (FPO) facility. Please do not bring any outside paintballs; their use is not permitted. Violators will be asked to leave immediately with no refund!


Miscellaneous Prices

Camouflage Top (rental - free with rental pkg.) $5.00
Camouflage Pants (rental) $7.00
Neck Guard (rental) $1.00
CO2 tank (20oz) - Rent $3.00
Barrel Sock - Rent $2.00
Barrel Socks - Purchase $10.00
200 Round Hopper (gravity feed) $14.00
Elbows (clear plastic) $5.00
9 volt Batteries $4.00 (2 for $7.00)
AA Batteries $1.00 (4 for $3.00)
TNT T-shirts $15.00
TNT Hoodies $30.00
TNT Hats $15.00
TNT Thermos Cups (Stainless steel) $15.00

This is the most incredible collection of bull**** I've ever seen!!!

I was against the paint prices as it is but looking at the whole picture I am now convinced that Horizon is ripping people off. You want to limit paint fine. There is a market for that. But what he is charging is ridiculous. How do you offer a rental package that doesn't even offer all the necessary items needed to play. For $30 you get a mask, marker and all day CO2....but no CO2 tank, hopper or barrel sock? No, thats an extra $19. Matter of fact its not only extra but its required as you can't play with them. Calculate all of that and you are talking about approx. $95 + 12% tax to play ($106.40 total). Mind you this is with only a bag of 500 paintballs and 4 playing fields.

That should be criminal.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Horizon

That way they spend a similar amount that they would at other fields, but get to play in an environment more to their liking.

Spend a little more, get a lot less. Yeah that makes sense. That worked out great for..... come to think of it..... no successful business in history. Its a moronic practice that, if adopted by the rest of the industry, will be the guaranteed death of paintball.

You are sitting here trying to justify screwing new players. Your business reminds me wholly of Mike @ ******'s scam auction site.

[Tempted (Banned)]

If you go by their FAQ page, this is what they claim:

What does it cost to play paintball?

The total price for your day of paintball will be dependant on how long you plan to play and how many paintball you use. At TNT Paintball, we promote a low paintball environment so we prefer if you shoot less rather than more. Our average customer shoots around 500 paintballs if they stay all day. So if you are renting and purchase 500 paintballs, it will cost between $60 and $70 depending on if you take advantage of discounts offered. If you stay 3.5 to 4 hours and shoot 300 paintballs, it will cost between $50 and $55. This will include field fees, rentals (mask, marker, and camouflage top), and Jumbo BBQ hotdog and pop for lunch.

So if you "take advantage of discounts offered" and shoot only one bag of paint, you can play for $60 to $70.

This is what my field charges:

RENTAL FEES
If you need to Rent

Pricing
Field Fee, All Day Air, Marker, Mask, pod pack and 500 rounds of paint $30.00

If you have your own Equipment

Pricing
Field Fee and All Day Air (paint sold separately) **Field Fee WAIVED with purchase of 500 Rnds per person** $10 per person

Paint Prices
FIELD PAINT ONLY

500 Rnds
Field Paint (Prices Subject to change without notice) per person $20.00
*** Case pricing available*** $60.00 (2000 rounds)
Bring Your own Paint Fee per person (**BANNED PAINTS: **Check Field Rules. UPDATED STARTING MARCH 1st 2011**) $20.00
Field Fee (If you are not buying our paint and BYOP) $10.00
Spliting field paint (per person not buying paint) $10.00



That is a respectable field with competitive pricing. Horizon and TNT are price gouging and taking extreme advantage of new players.


If you add up what it would cost to walk on to TNT's field and shoot one bag of paint, this is what you get:

Rental package - $30
Bag of paint - $45
Tank - $3
Barrel cover - $2


I'm unsure if the package includes a hopper or elbow, but if it doesn't then they charge you another $19 for a gravity hopper(to rent).

Bottom line is minimum you are going to pay to walk on is $80 for one bag of paint.

Here is the breakdown of what it costs to play on my field and shoot one bag of paint:

Rental package - $30
Paint - Included
Tank - Included
Barrel sock - Included
Hopper - Included

Total price to walk on is $30.




Now lets do that again, but this time shoot 2 bags of paint.

They are $80 plus $45 = $125. To shoot two bags of paint, $125.

We are $30 plus $20 = $50.

Which field would you play at?

[honculada]

that's just crazy

[Subterfuge]

The cost of living must be extremely high over there. As a budget baller, I try to keep the price at certified fields under $40. If I received a huge paycheck, maybe I might go over $50. Sometimes I can make a bag of 500 last all day. I just play hopper ball and pretend I have a pump. I still take out a bunch of people because I am more about angles than ROF. If you price your paint that high, I would rather practice on an outlaw field alone by myself, than waste my money on those prices. It's a waste of my time. I can always train myself on the last 200 rounds of paint for free on some vacant lot. Snapshooting off hand, sliding and shooting, running and shooting, bunker accuracy, and field walking. I did play on a field that was price gouged like that for a birthday party. It was about $50 for 100 rounds of paint and a sl-68 rental marker [I liked the trigger]. The deprived refs didn't want me to leave. They were giving me extra bags of paint.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Let's look at this a different way.

Say we take the $80 value for the walk on that was spelled out above. $80 for the average walkon who only plays once or twice a year is nothing.

That same walk on will only shoot the 500 he is given. He doesnt have to cower behind bunkers as paint rains around him. He is not going to get lit up. And at the end of the day he walks off the field having ha a lot of fun.


Or

He goes to the field down the road and pays less an gets the same rental package. But then sees everyone else buying cases of paint. He feels he doesnt have enough paint so he buys more too. Well he is no going to not shoot it. Neither are all the other rentals. So lots and lots of paint is being shot. By new players who lack control. People get lit up. And at the end of the day he walks off the field bruised and battered wondering why he paid for that abuse?

Who feels ripped off?

If I pay $80 and have a blast then I don't feel ripped off bit I sure would if I paid $50 to have a crappy day...



Horizon has also never said anyone should buy a case of paint let alone multiplies. He has never said this business middle is the only one. He even points people who want to shoot more to the field down the road.

At the end of the day he has been in business for over a decade. He has a large regular following of regular players. And he has probably made countless new players enjoy their day.

If his philosophy, business model, style of play is not what you like then go someplace else. What is the point of getting so bent out of shape?

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

Let's look at this a different way.

Say we take the $80 value for the walk on that was spelled out above. $80 for the average walkon who only plays once or twice a year is nothing.

Yeah that's true, but at $125 For field fee plus two bags of paint, they can't afford to play anymore. You play twice at that scheming field for $250. You play 5 times at a good field for $250. Tell me who is driving people away from the sport?

The reason I am going on about it is because its hard enough to get new players in the sport to keep us running and price gouging fields like his are only making it worse. Ask any person who plays once every two months why they don't play more often. You know what 99% of them say? Because it costs too much.

[Gyvanth]

Originally Posted by Tempted

The reason I am going on about it is because its hard enough to get new players in the sport to keep us running and price gouging fields like his are only making it worse. Ask any person who plays once every two months why they don't play more often. You know what 99% of them say? Because it costs too much.

Exactly. Until I bought a loaner marker + full loaner set up, I couldn't get any of my friends to go because of the prices. Now I can bring one friend at a time because I have enough gear to field a second player outside of myself. The prices are really one of the main turnoffs for main players, especially just for the paint. I mean, you can pick up a starter marker at Walmart for around $100, but getting a decent case of paint is around $50... most new players can't justify that.

[Soul06]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

Let's look at this a different way.

Say we take the $80 value for the walk on that was spelled out above. $80 for the average walkon who only plays once or twice a year is nothing.

That same walk on will only shoot the 500 he is given. He doesnt have to cower behind bunkers as paint rains around him. He is not going to get lit up. And at the end of the day he walks off the field having ha a lot of fun.

Or

He goes to the field down the road and pays less an gets the same rental package. But then sees everyone else buying cases of paint. He feels he doesnt have enough paint so he buys more too. Well he is no going to not shoot it. Neither are all the other rentals. So lots and lots of paint is being shot. By new players who lack control. People get lit up. And at the end of the day he walks off the field bruised and battered wondering why he paid for that abuse?

Who feels ripped off?

If I pay $80 and have a blast then I don't feel ripped off bit I sure would if I paid $50 to have a crappy day...

Horizon has also never said anyone should buy a case of paint let alone multiplies. He has never said this business middle is the only one. He even points people who want to shoot more to the field down the road.

At the end of the day he has been in business for over a decade. He has a large regular following of regular players. And he has probably made countless new players enjoy their day.

If his philosophy, business model, style of play is not what you like then go someplace else. What is the point of getting so bent out of shape?

The continuous assumption is that the newbie playing at the field where high volumes of paint are being shot is going to not enjoy his time there. This may be true for some but not all. Some people like the intensity of high volume games. Some like low. But who is he to tell everyone what the most entertaining style of play is?

And the reason we constantly get "bent out shape" over it is because he often brings it up. If you put yourself in the line of fire you can't complain when you get hit. Paint prices are a big concern for players. What do you expect when someone comes saying that they charge almost $200 a case?

[rexisme]

Thats what I was trying to state before when he was arguing with me. I went to his website and saw the bull**** with my own eyes before I even talked about it. Dude, is fricking crazy charging what he does for a case, should be ashamed.

[papitojr]

Most of the fields I play at do a great job of splitting up the groups and keeping the play level and fair. If your are new to the sport and playing with walkons that sre getting chewed up by out of control players and refs that cant break up the teams fairly, finding a new field may be in order...not necessarily one that charges outrageous fees to "curve bad behavior"

[TechnicalTick]

I am going to agree that TNT is charging over saturated prices, however. Look at all of the other fields in that area and what they are charging. You will find that is not that much different.


MESSAGE DIRECTLY TO HORIZON:
As a field employee at my local field, could you PM me or post here a more in-depth business model you have? I'm kind of really curious about yours, in a good way.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by TechnicalTick

I am going to agree that TNT is charging over saturated prices, however. Look at all of the other fields in that area and what they are charging. You will find that is not that much different.

This is an example of businesses agreeing to all charge up the butt to make more money from unsuspecting newbies. If one field charged the correct amount for paint then I can guarantee that the others will follow. If it costs me $30 to play and one field and $80 to play at another then I'm going to the one reasonably priced.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Soul06

How do you offer a rental package that doesn't even offer all the necessary items needed to play. For $30 you get a mask, marker and all day CO2....but no CO2 tank, hopper or barrel sock? No, thats an extra $19. Matter of fact its not only extra but its required as you can't play with them. Calculate all of that and you are talking about approx. $95 + 12% tax to play ($106.40 total). Mind you this is with only a bag of 500 paintballs and 4 playing fields.

That should be criminal.

Really? Websites normally list tanks, hoppers, and barrel socks as part of their rental packages? You think we (or any other field) would hand someone a rental marker without those items? Gimme a break.

I'm pretty sure our site states that taxes are included in our prices.

$30 ($25 if pre-booked with a deposit) pays for the rental gear, field use with more referees than you will find at most fields, and lunch. If you don't need the rentals it's $20 ($15 if pre-booked with a deposit) for the field fees, all day air/CO2, and lunch. And yes, prices in general (cost of living) are probably a little higher than in many places in North America.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

The reason I am going on about it is because its hard enough to get new players in the sport to keep us running and price gouging fields like his are only making it worse. Ask any person who plays once every two months why they don't play more often. You know what 99% of them say? Because it costs too much.

We don’t seem to have any problems attracting new players into the sport. Participation in paintball exploded during the years we have opened our doors. Paintball was pretty stagnant for many years here, but then participation more than tripled in the area the first ten years we were open. Most of those players, playing at our field. When we first started about 5% of paintball players in the area were gear owners. Now about 40% of our customers are gear owners that seem to come again and again. Weird huh? Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean you should jump to conclusions.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

This is an example of businesses agreeing to all charge up the butt to make more money from unsuspecting newbies. If one field charged the correct amount for paint then I can guarantee that the others will follow. If it costs me $30 to play and one field and $80 to play at another then I'm going to the one reasonably priced.

Our biggest competitor sells paintballs at $5/100 and cheaper when you buy more. He's closer to town and actually has a very nice field (better than the average field).
There are no pricing agreements. Again, unfounded assumptions.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Soul06

The continuous assumption is that the newbie playing at the field where high volumes of paint are being shot is going to not enjoy his time there. This may be true for some but not all. Some people like the intensity of high volume games. Some like low. But who is he to tell everyone what the most entertaining style of play is?

I don't tell people that. I let them make up their own minds. If players try the cheaper paint fields and they try our field and then decide to come back to our field after that, obviously the consumer is choosing with their wallet. That's the way it's supposed to work in a free market system and it does. I can't make people come to our field. They have to choose to do so on their own. We're just like any other business. We provide a service/product and consumers decide if it's good value for them. Apparently many do. I'm sorry all the naysayers (who most likely have never been anywhere near our field) don't see the value. I'm quite proud of the fact that we have brought so many new players into the market and that paintball is doing so well in the area. That's not going to change even if a bunch of people on the internet who don't understand don't like it.

Originally Posted by Soul06

And the reason we constantly get "bent out shape" over it is because he often brings it up. If you put yourself in the line of fire you can't complain when you get hit. Paint prices are a big concern for players. What do you expect when someone comes saying that they charge almost $200 a case?

Who's complaining? We're just having a nice discussion. That's the great thing about the internet and forums in particular, it allows us to have these nice discussions.