[Angel_Owner_188200]

ok i've been playing for over 11yrs now and back in the day it was quarter size hits were the only thing that counted, a few years ago i started getting the "I saw it break of the edge of your mask, your out" with no paint on that area. so i went into the rules and noticed that if the ref see's it your out..

now i have been living by this rule since, but now i have a team coming out talking about there is no marker im not out..

so my question is:

is the player out if you see it hit, spray off the player, but not leave a mark?

[MN_Rising]

Originally Posted by Angel_Owner_188200

so my question is:

is the player out if you see it hit, spray off the player, but not leave a mark?

Yes. If the paintball breaks on contact with the player, the player is out, regardless of how small/large/non existent the mark left is.

[ck028]

Originally Posted by MN_Rising

Yes. If the paintball breaks on contact with the player, the player is out, regardless of how small/large/non existent the mark left is.

I've wondered that too. Lame rule. You aren't marked if it breaks in the air.

[Angel_Owner_188200]

well the ball isnt breaking mid air, no it hitting a mask, gun or hand and leaving almost no mark at all...

[MN_Rising]

If it breaks in the air, then the player wouldn't be out, as it did not break while contacting the player. Being "Out" comes from paintballs breaking on, not bouncing off, players. So, if you see it hit a the tip of a barrel and break, that player would be out. If you see it break as it hits a player in the knuckle, the player would be out.

Now, you can't call a player out just because you think that they could have gotten hit - if you don't see the break and no mark is left you can't come back and call them on it. You have to see it, or it has to leave a mark.

The 'quarter' size rule is mostly, in my experience, used with newer referees who have not yet learn to distinguish a hit from spray or rub, but when you ref for a while it's much easier to distinguish what it a hit and what isn't.

[CoYeImPy]

I have seen refs alot lately calling you out if they see paint hit you but it bounces, Played a tourney and they did it all day. They were fair about it tho they did it to everyone so i didn't complain.

[ck028]

That's what I'm saying, it hits the player and breaks in the air, the ref sees spray but sees no hit on the player.

[MN_Rising]

If you see things like that usually bringing it up, respectfully, to an event coordinator (if PSP or similar, then talk to head of rules and refs) and let them know, sometimes it has to be brought up to know there's a problem.

[Angel_Owner_188200]

Its just local play but being that i've played larger events than the locals i know the rule and understand it but a new team thinks they dont count..

it really is truly funny playing with them. they dont want to get out unless a ref pulls them, even though there are only maybe 2 refs,but then when they get bonuce balled they get made. and on the flip of that they want to bonuce ball because the players are walking not running off the field..

[Fubarius]

Originally Posted by MN_Rising

The 'quarter' size rule is mostly, in my experience, used with newer referees who have not yet learn to distinguish a hit from spray or rub, but when you ref for a while it's much easier to distinguish what it a hit and what isn't.

I found the old quarter rule is best for good old fashioned open play. Games where players are expected to check themselves, or refs only end up checking players after the fact since they can't see every player at all times.

I've never cared for the "ref sees the ball break, mark is irrelevant" rule. It's burned me as a player a few to many times. One event in particular, the paint was really brittle, but hard. It would hit then blow up in the air after bouncing. Or bounce off and crack, so paint would spray around in the air as it spun off a player. Got hit with a playing on penalty on a hit I swore was a bounce. Ball hit, I checked arm, no paint at all (well, little splatter, but that could have come from anywhere).

However I understand the need for the rule as it stands. Too many douchebags out there. Just because the ball hit and broke, doesn't mean there would still be a nice round splat on the player by the time the ref gets there.

[Angel_Owner_188200]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

However I understand the need for the rule as it stands. Too many douchebags out there. Just because the ball hit and broke, doesn't mean there would still be a nice round splat on the player by the time the ref gets there.

or players have wiped the hit while checking it themselves...

[ck028]

Originally Posted by Angel_Owner_188200

or players have wiped the hit while checking it themselves...

Again, douchebags. Don't wipe.

[Racso]

I also do not like this rule. I will play really tight sometimes where I can be covered in spray, and if a ref thinks a paintball touched me and then sees spray, I'm out.

The sad part of this rule is that it was brought on by wipers and rule nazis (ball obviously breaks, but isn't quarter sized, "so I'm not out"). I think the idea is that it will kill off some wiping and make it harder to get away with it-was-a-bounce when it wasn't.

[mrmag911]

This rule no longer exists in the NPPL. It was taken out of the rule book at the beginning of this year. It specifically says,"...If the referee witnesses the ball hit and break and leaves less than a nickel size it will be considered a valid hit." The verbiage regarding breaking but not leaving paint has been removed. I'm not sure how this is worded in the PSP rule book.

[MN_Rising]

The wording of the current PSP rule is "3.8.2. Any live paintball striking and breaking on a player or any equipment in a player’s possession, or any mark indicating such a strike occurred, is a hit."
The wording of the current NPPL rule is "19.01 (2) ... If the referee witnesses the ball hit and break and leaves less than a nickel size it will be considered a valid hit."

[scroadkill]

what constitutes a hit changes depending on where you go.

IMO: As a general rule if it hits you and breaks then you are out.

[NGerali]

... But every field varies... My field does do the Quarter size hit splat as out.

But there some places like Hot Shots here in Fl that place Bounces as hits as well, and you're out.

[wharris14]

Originally Posted by scroadkill

what constitutes a hit changes depending on where you go.

IMO: As a general rule if it hits you and breaks then you are out.

That is the basic principle if it breaks you are out if it bounces you are not usually.

[crazygood12]

So this ball breaking but not leaving a mark has screwed me up at the last 2 local events I've played at. The first tourney the refs in general weren't great, but this one ref was horrible all day long. Off the break i get to my bunker but get hit in the top of the shoulder the ref standing at the snake 50 starts calling me to come out(not the ref directly to the side about 15-20 feet away on the same side i got hit) I had been taking bounces all day checked my self couldn't tell of a hit try to get him to come check me and he refuses. Says I saw it spray asked the other ref he says na there is no hit never saw anything either dude must be a dumb-***. I let that go without anything else said. Well sure enough at the next event same situation and the f***ing ref did it again.

How can I be out with no visible mark that is what we call A BOUNCE!!!!!!!!!!

[simple_condolences]

Dictating the size of a hit is a ridiculous notion that was done away with in general several years ago. Hopper hits are prime examples of this. How many people have been shot in the hopper, felt the hit, looked for it, and found only the TINIEST little v or "finger" of paint, where a ball clearly hit, but broke as the hopper was coming back in and left almost no paint. That is a hit, break, and elimination. By not pulling that player, we would be robbing someone down field of their work.

Likewise, off the break, paint does not randomly break in the air between two bunkers unless it hits SOMETHING. Another ball, a player, a bug, whatever. Sure, we should be trying to FIND a hit, however if it is something which we know we saw hit and break undoubtedly, sometimes trying to find the hit results in dropping your zone or convincing yourself that you didn't actually see and again, depriving the player down field of that elimination, one which may potentially change the entire course of the game.

@ crazygood12: Typically, the referees at the 50 (the ultimate and T1) are the more experienced referees on the field. Chances are, if they called you out, they had a reason to. A paintball does not have to "mark" a player, rather it has to "break" on a player. Making contact, cracking the shell, and then the rest of the ball falling apart behind the player constitutes a break and, subsequently, an elimination.

[CrusaderPB]

In competitive play, I feel:
A referee is to enforce rules, not make judgement calls. Players will cheat regardless; so giving authority to refs to remove players will just penalize innocent honest players at the hands of refs. A "quarter size" is good for open play, since it gives a frame of reference. Will some be dishonest? Sure. But for real competitive play there should be enough referees that this doesn't happen.

In recreational play:
The referee has to make calls to keep the players safe, everything else is irrelevant. Heck do I care if someone is 'cheating' at a birthday party. They paid hundreds to have a good time. Let them play.