[tgs-killer]

Alright, so my concept of a tactical marker has been on the drawing board for a number of years, and it is only just recently that I have decided to actually pursue it further (i.e., produce it). To put it bluntly, I want to produce a product that the consumers will want to need to have -- I don't want to put a product out there that was based on primarily on my preferences and force the consumers to like it because it's there and somehow different. Which is why I am here today and asking you to tell me what your thoughts and preferences are!
Although I do have a pretty good understanding of what the current trends are for tactical paintball, I definitely think that I need a better scope on things, first hand. My definition of a "tactical" marker means that it is adaptable to different scenarios and tactics (adaptive/modular/expandable yet practically functional)


Request of preferences:
►What would you like to see in a 'tactical' marker in general?
►What should a 'tactical' marker not have?
►What is a reasonable price-point?
►What is a preferred material composition and finish?
►What is your preference on the loading configuration (e.g., top, bottom, offset/side, etc)?
►What is your preference on the air system configuration?
►What is your preference on a firearm concept (e.g., AR/variant, bullpup, etc)
►What is your preference for the type of firearm configuration (e.g., long-rifle, SBR, carbine, SMG, etc)?
►What is something that is not mentioned that you would like to input?


This is the current projected list of specifications:
►Bullpup design for a shorter OAL (overall length)
►AR/variant design for offset stock capability to allow a direct line of sight; longer OAL.
►Modular breech to accommodate all thread/barrel types and most ball-detent types
►Modular feeding system

• (accommodates most current loading systems such as hoppers, Qloader and magazines with modular mounting points for selective placement and orientation)

►Modular air system

• (accommodates most current air systems such as CO2 and HPA tanks, remote lines and cartridges with configurable mounting points for selective placement and orientation)

►Multilayer pivot and take down pin receiver for rapid access to internal components

• (Bolt out back, rear regulator)

►Main components are self contained and non-clam-shell for durability and accessibility
►Modular slotted fore-end for use with direct bolt-on attachments and rail systems
►Mechanical single trigger mechanism on a .45 frame
►Regulated low pressure system
►Projected composition: rubber butt-pad, polymer/glass-reinforced nylon, 6061 aluminum (anodized type III class 2 or alternative coatings), various steel (stainless; melonite/nitride), cerakote optional
►First-Strike equipped
►Operating system TBA
►Component compatibility TBA


Please be thorough and thoughtful in your response(s)
Any input that you may have will be appreciated -- I look forward to seeing what ideas you all have!

[Fubarius]

Here's what I'd do, and it would be completely different than what everyone else is doing in this category (except one company).

Include absolutely no accessories. None. No stocks, no grip, no shroud, no carry handle. Nothing. But, and here's the big selling point, make it 100% compatible with real AR accessories.

They buy your body/trigger assembly/feed mechanism, then add that mil spec stock, that over molded grip, and that full length free floating quad rail that they want. Or that phantom 45grip block, that bottom line HPA tank, and that carbon fiber carbine length fore grip. These parts are already out there, no need to reinvent the wheel, or gamble on what your customers will find popular.

For an example of a company already doing something like this, read up on the CCM SR1...
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/c...ry-so-far.html

As for technical specs, mag fed and First Strike compatible are the big things right now. Find a way to make the mags cheap.

[tgs-killer]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

Here's what I'd do, and it would be completely different than what everyone else is doing in this category (except one company).

Include absolutely no accessories. None. No stocks, no grip, no shroud, no carry handle. Nothing. But, and here's the big selling point, make it 100% compatible with real AR accessories.

They buy your body/trigger assembly/feed mechanism, then add that mil spec stock, that over molded grip, and that full length free floating quad rail that they want. Or that phantom 45grip block, that bottom line HPA tank, and that carbon fiber carbine length fore grip. These parts are already out there, no need to reinvent the wheel, or gamble on what your customers will find popular.

For an example of a company already doing something like this, read up on the CCM SR1...
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/c...ry-so-far.html

As for technical specs, mag fed and First Strike compatible are the big things right now. Find a way to make the mags cheap.

Fantastic post, Fubarius!
Yes, utilizing existing parts and accessories was in the design outline for my marker, but it is difficult to maintain that concept because I want to do something pretty different in regards to paintball. And truth be told, my concepts/part(s) ideas are already present in the firearms industry, but even then they are far and few in-between so they are by no means "standard". But the fact still remains, it is difficult to introduce anything "new" on conventional terms without copying something from someone else -- specifically, we tend to see this a lot in the tactical/milsim area of paintball. And above all, we absolutely do not want to look like airsoft in this aspect. However, that is certainly understandable because those concepts just work. Don't worry, I won't create anything that is too "radical".
Most definitely some of the mechanics of the trigger assembly, grips, rails/risers/mounts, ambidextrous parts, and likely stocks will also be industry standard and interchangeable with real firearms components. So no new introductions here! Additionally, the complex inner workings will have variations if not be completely independent only to paintball. Good stuff!
Also, while I am still fascinated by CCM's work, I am shoving it to the side as I don't want to copy their stuff!

-Jarred

[tgs-killer]

Come on folks, I need more opinions!
I will post up some renders of my work-in-progress soon,

-Jarred

[mrspeeddemon]

My questions are:
-What would you like to see in a tactical type of marker in general?
modular- i.e. customizable
-What should not be done for a tactical type of marker?
theres alot of opinions on what is "right" or "wrong" on a tactical style marker and there will never be a 100% answer so lets see what you got
-Price point?
obviously the cheaper the better, but if quality is worth it people don't mind paying for it
-Preferred material composition (e.g., composite, polymer, steel, aluminum, etc)?
most people will cry for metal (steel or aluminum) but I've never had a problem with composits if done right
-Preference on loading configuration (e.g., top-horizontal loading, bottom-vertical loading, bottom-horizontal loading, etc)?
something offset with different congfigurations available to run hopper(or if you want to be really cool make a box mag for it
-Preference on air system configuration (e.g., tank on rear, tank on front, remote line only, small tank only, or expandable to large and small tanks with being slightly offset from center of barrel)?
again it should be customizable- alot of guns come out for remote line only and that only appeals to half the market, I personally like tank on gun as I shoot left or right handed
-Preference on top sight plane (i.e., 'complete' monolithic flat top, or flattop receiver with offset stock to compensate for goggle slack)?
compensating for use with a goggle will go a long way
-If unsure of above, what type of firearm concept would you like the marker to be based off of (e.g., FS90, Bullpup, AR, etc?)
AR style is going to be your easiest platform for options but its been done- alot! Bullpup would be the coolest
-If unsure of above, above, then what type of firearm category would you like the marker to be based off of (e.g., shotgun, long-rifle, cqb-rifle, smg, etc)?
-Anything else that you think would be considered "out there", please share it!



my answers are in red I have lots of ideas and would be very interested in what you have cooking

[Bigjoe11]

To be honest, I prefer aluminum, but if it reduced the price I wouldn't have a problem with polymer. I like the top of the plain shaped round, like the barrel, so it can aid in aiming down the barrel. I really like the bullpup idea, there is only one paintball bullpup on the market right now. If bullpuup, I think a a froward facing under the barrel asa would be best. If not a bullpup, either that or the asa coming out of the back like a stock would be great.

[Pdubs]

I like this! I feel like an SMG sized gun or an AR style would work best. Base the scale of the gun around a barrel length and run with it, but make sure to allow shorter configurations. I agree with the modular component, there should be different breeches/receivers that take different grip-frames or feed options (magfed, centerfeed, Q-loade-wait, never mind that last one). make the internal design similar to the new eNMEy by GoG (or mech ion by Yoda and Death if you're a purist). and have the ability to drop in a electronic upgrade. Make the purchasing system very modular, and make sure it accepts all modern combat weapon accessories (Cred to Fubarius on that one).

I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do! Good luck, and I hope it succeeds!

P.S. First strike or future equivalent compatible, but not dependent. You'd be surprised at how much this helps (*Cough*Kingman Hammer 7*Cough*)

[99BPS]

I have a very different way of looking at the concept of Tactical. Paintball is very different then real engagement, and not for the obvious reasons with no bearing on the marker, because paintball is played with a mask and paintballs don't fly like a bullet...nothing like the range, and no where close to as accurate.

A tactical paintball marker, TO BE TACTICALLY useful should not look like a rifle. The reason rifles are made the way they are is for three main things, to survive the force of repeated shots fired in the breach, to expel spent ammo, and to allow careful and very precise aiming. None of this applies in paintball.

Tactical in paintball means a few different things....

1. Being able to carry lots of ammo - while keeping a low profile
Reloading is not a good thing, its not tactical in a game you don't HAVE to do it. If you are playing open class, tactical means holding lots of paintballs.

2. No First Shot Drop off
At the same time, if one does set up a single shot really well, they should not lose it to FSDO.

3. Sighting with a mask
typical AR style rails are not meant to be used with a hopper or mask. Create a sight system that works while wearing a mask. Further paintballs are not super accurate so it should reflect that. A 300X zoom is not nearly as useful as an iron sight style bar in the EXACT right place for sighting the shot.

4. Efficiency/Ability to use all types of Fuel
A small tank is lighter and has a lower profile. Being able to use a smaller tank is tactical. I don't want to give up snap shooting lefty for a remote line. Give me something that will shoot great on 12grams, a 9oz co2 tank and a 13ci HPA tank.

5. Ability to Shoot at High BPS when needed
Sometimes accuracy is volume in paintball. Dye gets this with the DAM. Personally my favorite tactical marker is AGD tac-1 mag. I think a tactical marker should be able to keep up with the big boys, even without an EP set up.

6. Durability - I want a composite body with some aluminum. I want to be able to dive in the mud and on rocks, so I need the high impact parts to be composite, it just holds up much better.

7. Consistency - Accuracy in paintball = Consistency. I'd want +/- 7fps in a marker before I would call it truly tactical.

8. Reliability - This thing would need to not ever break down, be field stripped, need a quick lubing through the ASA to run, and be able to shoot through breaks and mud in the barrel. Honestly it should not be electric. Mags and GOGs new ENEMY stand out to me here.

9. A stock that allows a small bottle (13ci) to sit under - way Carter comps do

10. FS compatible double loadable like the DAM

11. Barrel shroud/rain cover that allows a flashlight to be mounted under the barrel.

[ElJefe13]

Originally Posted by tgs-killer

*No, I am/will not going to be following along the lines of these companies: Tippmann, RAP4, Mil-Sig, Tiberius, Spec-Ops, and CCM*

First and foremost, I am not sure if this is the correct location to be posting this thread, so I do apologize if it is the incorrect incorrect and please relocate it to the correct location. Thanks!

Alright, so my concept of a tactical marker has been on the drawing board for a number of years, and it is only just recently that I have decided to actually pursue it further (i.e., produce it). To put it bluntly, I want to produce a product that the consumers will want to need to have -- I don't want to put a product out there that was based on primarily on my preferences and force the consumers to like it because it's there and somehow different. Which is why I am here today and asking you to tell me what your thoughts and preferences are!
Although I do have a pretty good understanding of what the current trends are for tactical paintball, I definitely think that I need a better scope on things, first hand. My definition of a "tactical" marker means that it is adaptable to different scenarios and tactics (adaptive/modular/expandable yet practically functional), which then of course follow to it being magazine-fed marker (traditionally..).

My questions are:
-What would you like to see in a tactical type of marker in general?
*Light, fast, and dangerous
-What should not be done for a tactical type of marker?
*Make it ugly, make it all plastic, make it weight 10 lbs.
-Price point?
*Not ridiculous, but whatever you need to make it work.
-Preferred material composition (e.g., composite, polymer, steel, aluminum, etc)?
*Similar to the Trracer. Metal for the important parts, high impact polymer for the rest.
-Preference on loading configuration (e.g., top-horizontal loading, bottom-vertical loading, bottom-horizontal loading, etc)?
*Removable hopper adapter, mag-fed and FIRST STRIKE compatible (very important IMHO).
-Preference on air system configuration (e.g., tank on rear, tank on front, remote line only, small tank only, or expandable to large and small tanks with being slightly offset from center of barrel)?
*See below in "out there"
-Preference on top sight plane (i.e., 'complete' monolithic flat top, or flattop receiver with offset stock to compensate for goggle slack)?
*Picittany flattop rail with very simple removable iron sights. Something like ghost ring or shotgun sights. Maybe flip-up? Whatever you do, make them removable.
-If unsure of above, what type of firearm concept would you like the marker to be based off of (e.g., FS90, Bullpup, AR, etc?)
*I'd base it off a bullpup, preferrably the F2000, as I love it's egronomics and a couple other features. But really any bullpup would be great.
-If unsure of above, above, then what type of firearm category would you like the marker to be based off of (e.g., shotgun, long-rifle, cqb-rifle, smg, etc)?
-Anything else that you think would be considered "out there", please share it!
*One of the things that I'd like is having a tank in the foregrip. Thats why'd I'd like the F2000. I'd put say a 13ci tank (also maybe a 12 gram adapter for thr stock class people) as part of the rifle (if you need to, make it part of, say, a grenade launcher). Either way, I'd prefer that to remote lining it.
Also, make sure to put a couple tactical rails on it for flashlights and crap like that. And sling mounts. Drives me crazy when I buy a milsim marker and then have to she'll out $30 more for sling mounts.

My comments under *.

[mexi ca40k]

I love the idea of a milsim gun that comes with nothing and you can build it to whatever you want. The ability to use milsig magazines,the new spyder mags and maybe the DAM mags would be cool, sell different body kits for different mags. Also make where you an put air adaptable. I know this isn't as big but I would prefer something smaller and simple rather then something that can churn out 30+ balls a second.

[tgs-killer]

Thank you all for your input!
I will reply to your responses when I get back from my trip from New York this weekend -- just posting now to let you all know that I am here and reading and am NOT ignoring you! (for some reason I don't receive any notifications for new posts anymore, which is odd)
Additionally, I am setting an illustration program so I can finally show you all what I have so far. More updates to come

-Jarred

[americanidiot748]

My questions are:
-What would you like to see in a tactical type of marker in general?
the ability to be adaptive and customizable (if thats a word)
-What should not be done for a tactical type of marker?
an exact recreation of a modern firearm (AR-15, AK47) with a ASA and feedneck
-Price point?
cheaper is better (HAMMER 7) but people will shell out for a nice marker (DYE DAM)
-Preferred material composition (e.g., composite, polymer, steel, aluminum, etc)?
i would preffer aluminum (industry standard it seems) with high impact composite
-Preference on loading configuration (e.g., top-horizontal loading, bottom-vertical loading, bottom-horizontal loading, etc)?
a mag (FS and .68 compatable) with the ability to put a feedneck especially one that holds a 10 round tube (like the Hammer 2 or old PMI trracer)
-Preference on air system configuration (e.g., tank on rear, tank on front, remote line only, small tank only, or expandable to large and small tanks with being slightly offset from center of barrel)?
i would prefer to run tank on gun, but id hate the tank to be located under the barrel unless its 12 grams
-Preference on top sight plane (i.e., 'complete' monolithic flat top, or flattop receiver with offset stock to compensate for goggle slack)?
i'd like a very nice iron sight that could be removeable for say a red dot or something similar
-If unsure of above, what type of firearm concept would you like the marker to be based off of (e.g., FS90, Bullpup, AR, etc?)
a Bullpup would be Very Cool
-If unsure of above, above, then what type of firearm category would you like the marker to be based off of (e.g., shotgun, long-rifle, cqb-rifle, smg, etc)?
a marker based of the ergonomics of the F2000 would be awesome as long as it was adapted to paintball
-Anything else that you think would be considered "out there", please share it!
what i think would be cool is a bullpup with the mag integrated into the back similar to the P90 or F2000

[tgs-killer]

Alright, below is my responses to your posts, so they are in order as they go down:

mrspeeddemon
I agree with you 100% on people having differing opinions on a "tactical" style marker, but I hope to gather all of the input from here and anywhere else and put them together into one sleek package!
The price point will be around $199-275, more or less depending on an indefinite number of factors. Nevertheless, I hope to offer a high quality marker at a very reasonable price
As far as materials go, the major components will be made out of anodized billet aluminum, and the minor components will be made out of durable polymer. Additionally, the small parts will be made out of phosphate/blued steel
There will be a feature to include a variable hopper fed configuration (e.g., right, left, center), as well as the standard magazine fed configuration. Both setups for use with regular .68 paintballs and FS. A box magazine is on the drawing board
The air system will be adaptable in that it will be able to use any sized tank, cartridge(s), and/or remote line
The stock system will include a feature to be adjustable for off-set, so the user is able to configure the most comfortable setting for the goggle that they are using
I agree that the AR style platform is the most used because of its simple modularity, and it just works! A bullpup is something that I have been wanting to do for a long time, but since I love both platforms.. why not do both!

Bigjoe11
The majority of the marker will be made out of billet aluminum, and the marker will be very reasonably priced at $199-275. So with a rounded top receiver, you would not need a fixed picatinny rail? Or would you prefer that top rail to be removable?
Bullpup is going to be one of the systems for this marker, and the air system options are going to be adaptable, meaning that you can position them on the marker where ever you'd like!

Pdubs
Yes sir, the marker will be modular in that in-itself will be able to change configurations. But more on that later..
You are on a roll! I will be including a feature on the marker to have a variable hopper-fed design (e.g., right, left, center) as well as the standard mag-fed setup. Both for use with .68 and FS. Unfortunately I can't speak for the operating system just yet, but Yoda's mech Ion has always been an inspiration to me
The marker will be able to accept current aftermarket accessories

99BPS
Yes sir, I agree with you on that. But, I am speaking on the basis of paintball being utilized in a tactical-like simulation in that to recreate instances of live engagement whether that be on the basis of funness or for actual training. However, as you have very well stated, these simulations are not entirely accurate in terms of real-world firearms and should not be intertwined as such
This marker will operate efficiently on most air-systems, that being HPA and CO2, of most sizes/configrations
A high BPS capable mechanical marker? I will have to sit on this one for awhile..
The majority of the marker will consist of aluminum and some polymer, but with no thin/unstructured areas, so this marker will be pretty durable. In the world of firearms, think "billet" style construction
My biggest pet peeve is an inconsistent marker, and that includes markers that are 15+/- on the chrono. I aim to create the most consistent marker that I possibly can
Reliability, check. Not many Orings/seals to worry about, and field stripping should be a snap.. literally, snapping in the pivot pins
FS compatible, check
Modularity/expandability, I'm on it!

ElJefe13
I will try to make the marker light, but it will still weight some with its billet-style construction of mainly aluminum
The number one goal here is to make the marker practical -- everything on the marker will be practical, so there won't be a random detail somewhere that will make you wonder "why is that there"? So with that said, the marker will look good and will be durable!
The price will be about $199-275
The hopper will be variable in positioning (e.g., right, left, center) with a standard mag-fed option. Can use both .68 paintballs and FS
The air-system is going to be adaptive and modular -- you can place the air-system where ever you want and as many as you want (i.e., two 13ci tanks, or one 13ci tank + remote, etc)
Removable flip-up sights, check! Did someone say fiber-optic? I think so..
Bullpup style, oh yeah.. it's popular. So with that, I will be doing a few variety of weapon systems
Funny you mention an air-system in something like a grenade launcher.. interesting concept, isn't it?
Integrated detachable rails and sling mounts? Roger that!

mexi_ca40k
Yes sir, this marker will be the epitome of adaptive and expandable modularity!

americanidiot748
Yes sir, this marker will be the epitome of adaptive and expandable modularity!
No sir, no exact replication of what's already been done
This marker will be very reasonably priced at $199-275
The marker will be primarily composed of billet aluminum with hints of composite and bits of steel
The marker will be capable of a right, left, and center hopper configuration as well as the standard mag-fed setup which is not only limited to the "traditional" mags but also feedtubes and the like! FS Compatible as well
How would a rounded receiver with a detachable picatinny flat-top rail and fitted with flip-up fiber-optic sights sound to you?
Bullpup will be one of its configurations, hehe

If there's anything that I missed, let me know! If you think of something else or want to re-elaborate on something, post away!
I am working on getting my illustrating program up and running so I can finally show you all what I am working on, until then

-Jarred

[florios]

you know what i would like to see? a mechanical automatic, 3 burst similar to the way ak47's or m16 do it rather than electronic. just an idea.

[B3ARC1AW]

This may just be me, so don't pay too much attention to my idea idea unless others agree, haha.
I love playing pump and that's usually all I play, but having a mag fed semi auto would be fun to play with too.
Spyder just released their mag fed markers in the Hammer 7 and the MRX/MR5.
I would rather not have to buy a Hammer 7 AND the MR5/another mag fed semi in order to play with mag fed guns but in different styles.
Maybe there is a way to incorporate the ability to make the semi auto mag fed style gun you're designing into a pump by using some different internals or a different valve.
It's just my two cents, but I think if the gun gave you the option to play in multiple styles (pump and semi) a lot more people would be interested because there isn't a marker on the market like that yet.

*Yes, I know autocockers can have a pump kit slapped on, but there aren't any mag fed tactical markers that have that ability that I know of.*

[mjfraasch]

seems like a lot of work for something that is already coming out
g1m

it will look something like this(this is a SP1 a fantastic marker btw)

[Bigjoe11]

[quote=tgs-killer;77779150]
Bigjoe11
The majority of the marker will be made out of billet aluminum, and the marker will be very reasonably priced at $199-275. So with a rounded top receiver, you would not need a fixed picatinny rail? Or would you prefer that top rail to be removable?
Bullpup is going to be one of the systems for this marker, and the air system options are going to be adaptable, meaning that you can position them on the marker where ever you'd like!

I'm really liking that price range, and a removable rail on top would be nice. I have always preferred guns that are round on the top, because I feel it makes aiming easier because it is a uniform surface, almost like the effect of aiming down the barrel. It would be cool if it just had the standard screw holes on top that most rifles have for attaching rails. That would be compatible with existing rails, and cheap to produce . Another great feature would be to have holes to mount another rail underneath, so a standard grip, like on the m-16, could be used.

So what method of operation do you have in mind? As in spool valve, poppet; electropneumatic or electromechanical, etc.

[tgs-killer]

With all of the ideas suggested, I'm going to have to re-edit my current design. That's a good thing! Nevertheless, I hope to have a rough render up soon!

florios
Yes the concept of a select-fire mechanical marker is still on the drawing board, but it's difficult to utilize because of the marker's system design that I currently have in mind. But it seems like a select-fire capable platform is much more appealing than strict semi-auto from the feedback that I am receiving

B3ARC1AW
That is certainly a fascinating idea! Why didn't I think of this before.. Hah
A magazine fed marker that is capable of converting from the standard semi/select-fire system to a one-shot pump system.. hmmm. This definitely needs a lot more thought! What I have so far is the marker being able to convert to a pump without changing the parts because they will be integrated into the existing adaptive system
You sir will receive due credit for this idea.. I love it!

mjfraasch
Yes sir it is a lot of work, but I certainly will create something out of the ordinary. This marker system will change your way of thinking for magazine-fed "tactical" markers, I assure you.

Bigjoe11
Yes the price range is definitely something that I am focusing on -- I want to offer the customer a high-quality product at a relatively low cost. This will be a product never before seen in paintball with such high-quality at this price point. When you said "round-receiver", I instantly thought "AK47". This type of receiver does make aiming down the sights a little faster because the top surface area is curved and smaller than that of a flat slightly larger top receiver. So integrating both will satisfy the needs of either way, flat and round. There will be locations for rails at various points on the marker. So with that said, there will be no integrated rails that are non-removable, instead there will be slots and holes to mount rails as they needed
As far as the operating system.. I'm afraid that I cannot disclose that information just yet. It will either be a mix, or something different altogether!

-Jarred

[ASAT Ninja]

Nobody builds a REAL sniper rifle. The T9.1 is just a well dressed pistol and a rifled barrel on a marker DONT make it a sniper rifle. Also, no one makes a Dragunov paintball gun. mebbe you could address both issues?

[ASAT Ninja]

DOESNT make it. sorry

[Bigjoe11]

^ that's because people rarely snipe in paintball. It just doesn't work like airsoft or in real life. I would like to see a progressively rifled barrel in paintball though, the rpm's might actually get high enough to do something. It's like why you don't see hybrid pickup trucks, it just doesn't work well right now.