[broder]

Originally Posted by raehl

"The TonTon's told me their guns shot 352, 317, 307 and 303."

"The TonTon's were incorrect."

"No they weren't! The official press release from the TonTon's proves it!"

I stand corrected. No need to have this attitude though, I never did against you

[BIGCAN-RULES]

Originally Posted by broder

I stand corrected. No need to have this attitude though, I never did against you

Welcome to the wonderful world of raehl, usually 100% right but always 100% wrong in his condescending/arrogant delivery. Great pr person

[Nokia6618]

Originally Posted by BIGCAN-RULES

Welcome to the wonderful world of raehl, usually 100% right but always 100% wrong in his condescending/arrogant delivery. Great pr person

Well you can t always be right now can you :-) maybe its his way when he is wrong.. Or when he is asked "difficult " or " imbarasing " questions..

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by raehl

The short answer to this is, tell me where in the rulebook it says you get suspended for trashing hotel rooms. Would anyone seriously suggest that the league would be out-of-line to suspend a team that trashed hotel rooms? (I hope not, because it's been done.) And that doesn't affect the game at all!



That's just plain not true.

All those leagues have a policy that conduct that does not represent the league/sport well will yield sanctions. They don't enumerate every single possible situation and penalty in advance; they decide the penalty for each case as it happens.

I was just reading an article today about a NASCAR driver who lost series points because he was disrespectful to a reporter off-camera (or so he thought; someone nearby got it on their phone.)

There was no rule in the rulebook that said, "Don't disrespect the reporters" or that specified a penalty for it, but no one was surprised when he lost ranking points.

To take it to the extreme, Penn State University had YEARS of games retroactively forfeited because the administration covered up child abuse. You think that was in the rulebook? Of course not.



How many of them have points-based league standings?

In most of those leagues the preferred method of punishment is monetary - the Pros fine and suspend, the NCAA suspends, fines, and takes scholarships. NASCAR does have points-based standings and deduct points. Sports with drafts will fine and take away draft picks (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Na..._controve rsy)

Most of those remedies aren't available in paintball. Any significant financial fine would likely bankrupt most teams, we don't have scholarships, or draft picks...


Anyway, point is GAME RULES and LEAGUE POlCIES aren't the same thing. The rulebook is what the officials on the field follow to conduct the competition, and the officials on the field followed the PSP rulebook. League discipline is another matter entirely, and conduct on and off the field can lead to league sanctions in addition to any on-field penalties. (You wouldn't suggest a team that gets caught dumping paintballs all over their hotel parking lot start their next match with a major, would you?)




MLB's league body is Bud Selig. NFL's league body is Roger Goodell.


PSP apparently believes TonTons actions were beyond simple game infractions, and levied league sanctions in addition to the game penalties. There is nothing at all odd or surprising about that.


- Chris

You are not talking about in-game infractions already covered by the rules of play, so none of your post has relevance to mine.... sorry.... try again

[edek1]

It's ok i quit the hd webcast. Some interesting points were made in this thread J. Stein nailed it.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by Kaolinite

I Find it interesting that all the teams getting caught raising FPS (very unsafe, borderline intent to injure) are Dye teams.

I wanted to go pack and touch on this:

What teams have been caught raising FPS?

The video you are replying to certainly doesn't show a team raising FPS. All the videos I've seen show teams adjusting velocity before the point, which is a common practice the officials are more than aware of on the Pro field.

Pro teams keep allen wrenches in the penalty boxes. One reason is to lower velocity when they're in the box after a velocity penalty. Another is if a player comes on the field and gets chronoed and is shooting a little over, they grab the wrenches on turn the gun down. There is thus, of course, video of players adjusting the velocity on their guns prior to the start of the point.

In this video in particular, while it's not entirely clear, it looks like the player is turning the reg in, which on a DM lowers velocity.

Also, do you really think that at the start of the point, with 4-5 refs watching the 5 players at the start box, that the player thinks the action in that video escaped notice? You can even see the guy bend over, pull the wrench out of the box, then put it back in there. It's standard practice on the Pro field and not evidence of anything other than keeping the guns under 300.

- Chris

[raehl]

Originally Posted by broder

I stand corrected. No need to have this attitude though, I never did against you

Apologize, I thought that post was Nokia's, and his insistence on repeating things that are just plain not true is getting a little silly.

Originally Posted by BIGCAN-RULES

Welcome to the wonderful world of raehl, usually 100% right but always 100% wrong in his condescending/arrogant delivery. Great pr person

When did I become a PR person? We're all dudes posting on a forum.

Usually when people get around to arguing that I'm not pointing out issues with their points NICELY ENOUGH I take that as a sign that there are no more items germane to the actual discussion to be raised.

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

You are not talking about in-game infractions already covered by the rules of play, so none of your post has relevance to mine.... sorry.... try again

Let's try some different examples then:

All Sports: Egregious physical contact between players
All Sports: Egregious conduct towards the officials
All Sports: Illegal equipment (particularly NASCAR)
All Sports: Egregious anything not specifically enumerated in the rules
All Sports: Illegal Substance Use (although at least US sports are getting better on having policies for this)


But, that's beside the point, because what PSP apparently believes the TonTons did isn't an in-game infraction. Playing with a gun that's over the limit is an in-game infraction. They got the majors and minors for that.

Deciding before the game that you're going to play with equipment that you KNOW severely violates the safety rules is not an in-game infraction.


Here's a good example.

The NFL has rules in place about legal and illegal hits, and there are in-game penalties for illegal hits.

The NFL found out that a team had a bounty system in place encouraging players to knock other players out of the game.

Now, according to you, these actions were already covered by the in-game rules - if the players made illegal hits, there were penalties for it, specified in the rulebook.

But making an illegal play and deciding to play games illegally are not the same thing.

In the end, the NFL fined and suspended several players and coaching staff - not for the illegal hits on the field, but for the disregard for the safety of other players off the field.

That's exactly the same case here - the additional PSP sanctions are not for simply having a gun shooting over the limit on the field. The sanctions are for the willful disregard for the safety regulations in general.


- Chris

[kstmzdOG]

Originally Posted by OhIoCoNtRActKilLa

.

I'm surprised by your response, actually.

Imagine if you had a team that was going all the way to Europe where nobody wanted you to come, you're down players, plus you're not even in the race to win anything. Would you blow the money for that? I can't believe the amount of **** these guys get. They're flying across the world to play these events with a limited schedule and budget, yet nobody gives them a lick of credit for it.

American teams do the same exact **** for the Euro leagues anyhow. I saw that Cassidy from HK guested on Infamous for the CPS championship. He doesn't even play tournaments, so how serious could they have been taking it? (not hating on the team here) I'm just saying that it's the same ****, different continent.

I'm sure you realize he's actually a pretty decent player, and Infamous isn't going to just ask some scrub to play with them right?

[Nokia6618]

Originally Posted by raehl

Apologize, I thought that post was Nokia's, and his insistence on repeating things that are just plain not true is getting a little silly.



- Chris

Chris ,

For a guy that was not on the field nore at the meeting between the tontons and the psp, i am sure you know beter then the tonton players..

And you can continue to try to convince that the tontons knowningly took their faulty equipement to the field, but the one insisting on things that are just plain not true is you. The same goes for the fps on their guns.. So look in the mirror if you want to see silly..

[phillysteve]

Drama in paintball? What has this world come to?

I think it's great that they were attending these American events to begin with. The fact that they're not returning is a shame, but it was inevitable.

I can't imagine not seeing the marker firing 350+ FPS on it's first shot due to an o-ring issue. You would think it would have been seen before hand. Additionally, what players can't feel the difference between 300 and 350 FPS? That is some serious drop off.

You can feel the difference between 280 and 300; I can't imagine 350 feeling legit.

I'm pretty surprised at the amount of markers shooting hot, but at the same time not really that surprised. Wonder if this will lead to more concious refs in the future

[Kirko017]

Originally Posted by ventvisor

Here's my take. Everyone's replaceable. Another team will fill the gap and other than the ton ton shocker. No one will care or remember the ton tons playing in 2013. Just how the world works these days. Could careless if they stay an play. Or just play millennium.

You must be playing Pro in NPPL right now lol

The good teams are not so replaceable. And TonsTons might not be the best team, but definitely one of the better ones out there. We like to watch good competition

[Ryan@CPX]

Originally Posted by Nokia6618

Chris ,

For a guy that was not on the field nore at the meeting between the tontons and the psp, i am sure you know beter then the tonton players..

And you can continue to try to convince that the tontons knowningly took their faulty equipement to the field, but the one insisting on things that are just plain not true is you. The same goes for the fps on their guns.. So look in the mirror if you want to see silly..

You people have no idea.....

[raehl]

Originally Posted by Nokia6618

Chris ,

For a guy that was not on the field nore at the meeting between tthe tontons and the psp, i am sure you know beter then the tonton players..

Were you at the meeting? We're you even in the same country?

Do you have any idea at all where I was the Sunday of west coast open?

If I were you I would just stop.

And you can continue to try to convince that the tontons knowningly took their faulty equipement to the field, but the one insisting on things that are just plain not true is you. The same goes for the fps on their guns.. So look in the mirror if you want to see silly..

According to PSP 's release, PSP apparently believes that tontons took the field with equipment that they knew was shooting over the limit. You are certainly welcome to disagree with their conclusion. What you are not allowed to do is change the facts.

The chrono readings were 352, 322, 319 or 317, and 307. I know because I was there at the field minutes after it happened and asked, and because I have confirmed it with several other people who were there including the guy who actually did the chronographing.

This is corroborated by a stats database and live recorded video showing 3 players serving 2 minutes in the box. It is simply ridiculous to suggest that in the 30 minutes it took to sort this out that tontons let themselves serve 3 majors instead of 2 just because a regthrew the wrong flag in "confusion". They had 2 separate guns shooting 320, period.

There was nothing wrong with any oring. I know because I was there and personally held the equipment, including the regulator assembly, and personally talked to the tech.

Now, if you want to claim that a team with perfectly functional orings and that had guns shooting 350, 320, 320 and 307 did so entirely on accident, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

If you want to claim they didn'tget properly assessed a gross and two majors or that their orings were messed up, you are absolutely wrong.


- Chris

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by raehl

Let's try some different examples then:

All Sports: Egregious physical contact between players
All Sports: Egregious conduct towards the officials
All Sports: Illegal equipment (particularly NASCAR)
All Sports: Egregious anything not specifically enumerated in the rules
All Sports: Illegal Substance Use (although at least US sports are getting better on having policies for this)


But, that's beside the point, because what PSP apparently believes the TonTons did isn't an in-game infraction. Playing with a gun that's over the limit is an in-game infraction. They got the majors and minors for that.

Deciding before the game that you're going to play with equipment that you KNOW severely violates the safety rules is not an in-game infraction.


Here's a good example.

The NFL has rules in place about legal and illegal hits, and there are in-game penalties for illegal hits.

The NFL found out that a team had a bounty system in place encouraging players to knock other players out of the game.

Now, according to you, these actions were already covered by the in-game rules - if the players made illegal hits, there were penalties for it, specified in the rulebook.

But making an illegal play and deciding to play games illegally are not the same thing.

In the end, the NFL fined and suspended several players and coaching staff - not for the illegal hits on the field, but for the disregard for the safety of other players off the field.

That's exactly the same case here - the additional PSP sanctions are not for simply having a gun shooting over the limit on the field. The sanctions are for the willful disregard for the safety regulations in general.


- Chris

Ok Chris, first things first:

You are quite obviously usually privy to PSP information most of us are not, so let's not be coy here.... the "we are all just dudes posting on a forum" comment is a little over the top

The Saints example is a good one actually, IF the PSP indeed thinks the Tontons organisation tried to injure opponents in an organised manner..... are you saying that is the position of the PSP?

If it is, Lanes press release most definitely did not say that, and you are then holding information that would change my whole perspective on this case.

If that is not the case, I still question why the whole team was penalised after the event.

The other NFL examples you give, are always a question of penalising an individual player, not a whole team, and if you think that is a good way to do things, that is what the PSP should have done in this instance.

However, I would then (again) refer you to the fact that we already have velocity rules in the rulebook, and that players are supposed to incur penalties for infractions in-game - not after a game.... if the PSP does not like that principle, they should not have put it in their rulebook.

If the PSP wants to change the principle, they should go ahead and do that, advertise the change, and then implement it...... not the other way around, which is what has been done here.

I still maintain this is a dangerous precedent to set, and I also maintain that, from a moral perspective, there is no difference between one type of intentional cheating and another.

[b15cu1t]

THIS THREAD IS A JOKE
the psp and everybody need too sort this crap out.
stop the he said she said crap,
paintball trys too be a proffesional sport but plays at it.
sorry guys but if the rest of the world came under one structure ,we would not need the psp ,think about it.
we need proper structure as a sport,until then we will always have crap like this

[ventvisor]

Originally Posted by Kirko017

You must be playing Pro in NPPL right now lol

The good teams are not so replaceable. And TonsTons might not be the best team, but definitely one of the better ones out there. We like to watch good competition

Not that I care to quote you to explain what I said. But your completely lost when it comes to when teams die or leave the main tourney scene. They become defunct. Go an use google and look at a list of defunct pro teams. They break up an join other teams. It how it works. Nothing special about the ton tons except name recognition. That's all.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

The Saints example is a good one actually, IF the PSP indeed thinks the Tontons organisation tried to injure opponents in an organised manner..... are you saying that is the position of the PSP?

Obviously not. If anyone thought anyone intended to hurt anyone the sanctions would have been much different.

It was just an example of off-field actions/decisions that result in on field behavior with on field penalties as well as league sanctions. I'm sure there are more mundane examples... They just don't make news as much.

I still maintain this is a dangerous precedent to set, and I also maintain that, from a moral perspective, there is no difference between one type of intentional cheating and another.

I have the opposite view... It's a dangerous precedent to not set. Just because what you do off the field results in an in game action with an in game penalty shouldn't absolve your of sanctions for the off field activity.

- Chris

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by raehl

Obviously not. If anyone thought anyone intended to hurt anyone the sanctions would have been much different.

It was just an example of off-field actions/decisions that result in on field behavior with on field penalties as well as league sanctions. I'm sure there are more mundane examples... They just don't make news as much.

So, if nobody intended to hurt anyone, and it was an in-game infraction already covered in the rulebook..... why the extra penalty after the fact pray tell?

Originally Posted by raehl

I have the opposite view... It's a dangerous precedent to not set. Just because what you do off the field results in an in game action with an in game penalty shouldn't absolve your of sanctions for the off field activity.

- Chris

That barely made sense Chris, you are skating on thin ice here.

But let's clarify.... since there was no intent to injure (covered in the first paragraph), and since velocity penalties are ALWAYS the result of off field actions (you don't set velocity on-field).... are you saying that all velocity infractions above 319 (3 of the Tontons were 320 or more according to you), should result in points being deducted from a team after an event?

Because, if that is not what you are saying, I fail to see why this particular case warrants a team penalty outside of the rulebook, after the event - and would like to hear your take on why?

I know you are a great supporter of the PSP Chris, and I fully understand why you cannot be publicly critical of the organisation (which obviously makes you less effective as a debater)..... but come on - even you must be able to admit the pooch was screwed in this instance, and that the PSP would have been better off just letting the on-field penalties stand on their own merit.

Unless ofcourse there is more to the story - I can only judge by the information that has been made publicly available.

[MaG Adrenal1ne]

While these posts have been entertaining, can we all just agree to disagree and let this thread die? Whats done is done. We can speculate, argue, and present facts of irrelevance all day on a different topic that will potentially get us somewhere at the end of the day..

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by MaG Adrenal1ne

While these posts have been entertaining, can we all just agree to disagree and let this thread die? Whats done is done. We can speculate, argue, and present facts of irrelevance all day on a different topic that will potentially get us somewhere at the end of the day..

These kinds of posts always makes me wonder

Why is it important to you that the thread dies??

[Trevor the great]

Originally Posted by Paint_hore

You arent all that bright are you?

Im sure there is a very good reason for it, Ton Tons arent gonna up and quit over trivial bs no matter what all the wannabe pros on pbn say.

i disagree with you. if my whole team was caught shooting hot, and put into a category of cheaters, not to mention being in the challengers division. Why spend the money when their going to receive nothing but dirty looks and disrespect from other teams? What i've heard though, is that their low on money, and they can't necessarily afford it.