[Iamamartianchurch]

Preface: I think that we all could benefit from a better understand of where each of us is coming from. Especially if we are going to be identifying with or choose to label others as either Left of Right. Most of all, I think the distinction is sorely misunderstood.

Left: Equality is a moral good

Right: Inequality is a moral good.

From these foundations, it is easy to understand the emergent values. Here's a short list of some to help illustrate:

Left:
Autonomy
Plurality
Relativism
Internationalism

Right:
Authority
Hierarchy
Rank
Nationalism


Feel free to dispute. I tried to keep this concise and to the point.

[quakcer]

"Authority" should be moved to the Left category, and "freedom" should belong in the Right category.

[Space Pope]

Originally Posted by quakcer

"Authority" should be moved to the Left category, and "freedom" should belong in the Right category.

...and why is that?

[quakcer]

Originally Posted by Space Pope

...and why is that?

Because authority is all I've seen from the obama administration.

[Space Pope]

Originally Posted by quakcer

Because authority is all I've seen from the obama administration.

...and if that were true, what would that have to do with the definition of the word "left" in terms of political ideology?

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by quakcer

"Authority" should be moved to the Left category, and "freedom" should belong in the Right category.

Im sorry but it does not follow. If the Right has any conception of freedom it is for the community as a meta-organism hence nationalism. Individual freedom as you understand it is better called autonomy and is, itself incompatible with authority. The use of coercive force to achieve a condition of equality may appear as being authoritarian. Yet, for authority to actually exist, it requires the recognition of superior and inferior. The elimination of this distinction is a facet of the Left.

[quakcer]

Originally Posted by Space Pope

...and if that were true, what would that have to do with the definition of the word "left" in terms of political ideology?

The fact that the left elected obama knowing how authoritarian he is, which means they want authoritarianism to be part of the left.

[Space Pope]

Originally Posted by quakcer

The fact that the left elected obama knowing how authoritarian he is, which means they want authoritarianism to be part of the left.

I don't think you understand the point being made, which isn't at all surprising...

Do the people you frequently call "liberals" or "the left" actually fit that description?

[TheSilentAssassin]

Can we please just ignore blake and not let him ruin what is possibly a good discussion? It's not hard. Just don't respond to him.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin

Can we please just ignore blake and not let him ruin what is possibly a good discussion? It's not hard. Just don't respond to him.

He got one good response out of me. Unless he has anything to contribute, Im leaving it at one.

[Ford]

This thread has it all wrong. This is how each side sees the other.

The left


The right


/thread

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Ford

This thread has it all wrong. This is how each side sees the other.

The left


The right


/thread

The point here is understanding, not demonization.

[Eric the Fish]

What I have observed over the years is the two parties drifting towards more conservative and business comes first models. Think Nixon in the 70's starting up the EPA and the clean air and water acts ( Right center) Lyndon Johnson- Medicare, Persons with disabilities act, welfare etc. (Left/ far left.) Now.... the Norquist pledge/ Tea party elected officials : no compromise ( Far Right) Obama willing to cut back on entitlements and not going after wall street robber barons responsible for the housing crash ( left center) jmo

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Eric the Fish

What I have observed over the years is the two parties drifting towards more conservative and business comes first models. Think Nixon in the 70's starting up the EPA and the clean air and water acts ( Right center) Lyndon Johnson- Medicare, Persons with disabilities act, welfare etc. (Left/ far left.) Now.... the Norquist pledge/ Tea party elected officials : no compromise ( Far Right) Obama willing to cut back on entitlements and not going after wall street robber barons responsible for the housing crash ( left center) jmo

This is a general discussion not limited to political party. The idea is to decribe the phenomenon of Left and Right as it manifests across the globe. Particularly since the dawn of the Left right around John Locke.

That being said.........

What you bring up is fairly interesting. I'm not remotely familiar with aspects of business and its relationship with society at large. Though, I do believe that lazy-faire is contingent on individual autonomy. What I really need to do is read up on economics in pre-enlightenment societies, particularly Monarchy. I know that Prussians practiced a form of socialism without any emphasis on equality. Public servants were paid fairly poorly but were considered among societies elite.

[Ford]

Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch

The point here is understanding, not demonization.

I call BS. The broad terms you use could define either the far left or the far right. My point is that you can't really pigeon hole someone to completely left, or completely right. I'd wager everyone has one or two beliefs that conflict with their general political philosophy one way or the other.

If anything, your topic should be about people who blindly follow one political leaning vs. those that analyze issues on a case by case basis to form left, right, libertarian or populist views.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Ford

I call BS. The broad terms you use could define either the far left or the far right. My point is that you can't really pigeon hole someone to completely left, or completely right. I'd wager everyone has one or two beliefs that conflict with their general political philosophy one way or the other.

If anything, your topic should be about people who blindly follow one political leaning vs. those that analyze issues on a case by case basis to form left, right, libertarian or populist views.

Yes you can and I did just that. Unless you have something more substantial than "no" to defend your criticism?

Secondly, why the hell would I make a thread about that? I don't even agree with you on that.

[Gisgo09]

Originally Posted by Ford

I call BS. The broad terms you use could define either the far left or the far right. My point is that you can't really pigeon hole someone to completely left, or completely right. I'd wager everyone has one or two beliefs that conflict with their general political philosophy one way or the other.

If anything, your topic should be about people who blindly follow one political leaning vs. those that analyze issues on a case by case basis to form left, right, libertarian or populist views.

The point here is to set a general consensus as to what is left and what is right. It's not to say if you're left or right you automatically follow this guideline in every situation. However when you weigh an issue those are some of the core principles you'll use to determine your stance (whether you know it or not). Imo he's pretty damn spot on.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Gisgo09

The point here is to set a general consensus as to what is left and what is right. It's not to say if you're left or right you automatically follow this guideline in every situation. However when you weigh an issue those are some of the core principles you'll use to determine your stance (whether you know it or not). Imo he's pretty damn spot on.

Thank you. I get that variance exists but if we can't distinguish between the terms we shouldn't use them. Additionally, it helps to know thy enemy, or thy friend. Whichever your perspective.

[Ford]

What blows my mind and fuels my apprehension in this thread is the ideas of defining left / right without some other variables.

The chart below is useful to help people whittle down political philosophies on issues. You'll notice authoritarian and libertarian are there own bloc all together.

The point in showing this is to suggest that some of the words you're using to define left/right really belong in other categories altogether... perhaps you need to expand what you need to define to properly define what you're looking for in the first place?

Just a suggestion.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Ford

What blows my mind and fuels my apprehension in this thread is the ideas of defining left / right without some other variables.

The chart below is useful to help people whittle down political philosophies on issues. You'll notice authoritarian and libertarian are there own bloc all together.

The point in showing this is to suggest that some of the words you're using to define left/right really belong in other categories altogether... perhaps you need to expand what you need to define to properly define what you're looking for in the first place?

Just a suggestion.

I've seen that chart but I do not agree with it. Authoritarianism is always a hallmark of the right because it is fundamentally incompatible with egalitarianism and individual autonomy. Libertarianism is always left because it praises egalitarianism through individual autonomy. The only, only aspect it may share with the right is in the fundamental inequality of the free market, which they praise. However, when discussing political philosophy, it is most pertinent to focus on differing forms of social order than allow something to be defined by its view on economics.

[Umami]

Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch

I've seen that chart but I do not agree with it. Authoritarianism is always a hallmark of the right because it is fundamentally incompatible with egalitarianism and individual autonomy. Libertarianism is always left because it praises egalitarianism through individual autonomy. The only, only aspect it may share with the right is in the fundamental inequality of the free market, which they praise. However, when discussing political philosophy, it is most pertinent to focus on differing forms of social order than allow something to be defined by its view on economics.

While I see where you're coming from, what if the difference between someone who identifies as 'right' and libertarian is the source of authority? Instead of authority stemming from the state, they see authority as based in social order. In that sense while you are free to do as you will in the eyes of the state you are not free to do as you will in the eyes of your neighbor.

I think this would maintain the distinction well enough to say that the two dimensions are relatively independent, but requires a sensible discussion of the efficacy of society alone as a tool of maintaining order.