[Trevor the great]

Originally Posted by Ryan@CPX

You people have no idea.....

my 70 year old grandmother, would be able to tell the difference between 280 and 310. i can't even imagine 353. i don't even think i've ever seen anyone shoot past 330. come on man, it's pretty clear they knew they were shooting hot. 1+1=2

[Trevor the great]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

So, if nobody intended to hurt anyone, and it was an in-game infraction already covered in the rulebook..... why the extra penalty after the fact pray tell?



That barely made sense Chris, you are skating on thin ice here.

But let's clarify.... since there was no intent to injure (covered in the first paragraph), and since velocity penalties are ALWAYS the result of off field actions (you don't set velocity on-field).... are you saying that all velocity infractions above 319 (3 of the Tontons were 320 or more according to you), should result in points being deducted from a team after an event?

Because, if that is not what you are saying, I fail to see why this particular case warrants a team penalty outside of the rulebook, after the event - and would like to hear your take on why?

I know you are a great supporter of the PSP Chris, and I fully understand why you cannot be publicly critical of the organisation (which obviously makes you less effective as a debater)..... but come on - even you must be able to admit the pooch was screwed in this instance, and that the PSP would have been better off just letting the on-field penalties stand on their own merit.

Unless ofcourse there is more to the story - I can only judge by the information that has been made publicly available.

? how did that barely make any sense? i hardly skimmed his 5 paragraphs and understood what he was saying

[Trevor the great]

Originally Posted by Nokia6618

Well i am too old to go back to school, but here is the thing : we see 1 yellow flag and 1 red flag on the webcast. So were did the majors and 1 minor come from ? Each player was there, and the 1 ref was there.. Nobody else was there, i was not, you chris were not, nore was anybody else.. When the chronies were taken..
The players gave each their numbers.. And it does not ad up to the penalties..
So either one of the players is lying, or there was a mix-up with the penalties.
And it is logical for tontons to admit 2 majors and 1 minor and then to lie about the third major right ?
But we will never know since the ref stoped throwing flags after the second one.. And it will always be his word against the players word.. I would suggest that if such a case would occur again, the refs throw the flags for each penalty and that somebody writes down how much the fps is..

As for the reg thing, so if it was not a faulty oring, what made the reg broken ?

I am sure that a lot of people would like to know..

if the refs flew their flags for all 5 of those players, they would most likely dislocate their shoulder.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Trevor the great

my 70 year old grandmother, would be able to tell the difference between 280 and 310. i can't even imagine 353. i don't even think i've ever seen anyone shoot past 330. come on man, it's pretty clear they knew they were shooting hot. 1+1=2

Ofcourse you notice the difference between 299 and 353 - no doubt about it.

If the gun shoots that hot consistently that is..... when it is a creeping reg, and only the first shot is that hot, we as players often shoot that shot into the ground or something similar, so it would be possible to not notice.

That does not excuse it, and the on-field penalties were absolutely just..... but people should stop with all the conspiracy theory, which is simply ridiculous.

I don't think you can find a single experienced pro who would believe that

[pbkyle1991]

My guess is that they wont have enough players, it would be kinda hard to come back from an upset especially after their game with aftershock when three players got penalties for shooting hot. 356 fps in a tournament? wtf was he thinking. Yeah they were smashin people off the break but yo gotta wonder why when their paintballs are goin 60 fps faster than yours. in my mind they need a break and need to focus on playing the game.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

So, if nobody intended to hurt anyone, and it was an in-game infraction already covered in the rulebook..... why the extra penalty after the fact pray tell?

Same answer as in the previous posts? Guess I can't make you read them.

But let's clarify.... since there was no intent to injure (covered in the first paragraph), and since velocity penalties are ALWAYS the result of off field actions (you don't set velocity on-field).... are you saying that all velocity infractions above 319 (3 of the Tontons were 320 or more according to you), should result in points being deducted from a team after an event?

If it's believed that the majority of players on a team knew their guns were shooting that hot and chose to play with them instead of fix them, then yes.

Most sports have game penalties for equipment that is out of certain standards. If a league determined a team was using equipment out of standards intentionally, you can be absolutely sure there would be league sanctions in addition to game penalties. Acting surprised such a thing happened is just silly.


You might argue that the effect was minor, but then so were the sanctions (essentially loss of some points and a strong warning not to do it again).


Your assertion that a league should not set a standard that egregious conduct will result in league sanctions is just plain wrong. Players and teams should ABSOLUTELY EXPECT that egregious conduct will result in league sanctions, regardless of whether that egregious conduct is specifically enumerated in the game rule book or not.


And while I appreciate you attacking the messenger, I'm not just saying that - my own league follows that very common standard as well.

- Chris

[NBTippy]

Nothing like a good old fashioned PBN dick waving contest.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by raehl

Same answer as in the previous posts? Guess I can't make you read them.

If it's believed that the majority of players on a team knew their guns were shooting that hot and chose to play with them instead of fix them, then yes.

Most sports have game penalties for equipment that is out of certain standards. If a league determined a team was using equipment out of standards intentionally, you can be absolutely sure there would be league sanctions in addition to game penalties. Acting surprised such a thing happened is just silly.

You might argue that the effect was minor, but then so were the sanctions (essentially loss of some points and a strong warning not to do it again).

Your assertion that a league should not set a standard that egregious conduct will result in league sanctions is just plain wrong. Players and teams should ABSOLUTELY EXPECT that egregious conduct will result in league sanctions, regardless of whether that egregious conduct is specifically enumerated in the game rule book or not.

And while I appreciate you attacking the messenger, I'm not just saying that - my own league follows that very common standard as well.

- Chris

Well, I guess you don't read my posts either, or possibly my english is failing me - because you keep skirting the issue

1.
The majority of the team knew their guns were shooting hot?

According to Lanes own posts in here, there was "no evidence that the TonTon's engaged in intentional acts to gain advantage over teams and no evidence that malice was involved"

So I am having a hard time finding justification for your assertion that "the majority of the team knew their guns were shooting that hot"..... but again, you may be privy to information I am not, and right about now would be the perfect time to bring such information to the table?

2.
What exactly do you mean by "out of standard"? - Nobody has claimed the Tontons equipment was not standard, so I am guessing you mean a paintball gun is "out of standard" when shooting hot?

Which brings me back to my original point:
- Velocity rules are covered by the existing rulebook
- Penalties for velocity infractions are clear as per the rulebook, and were enforced (rightly so) during the game
- There are no rules covering the additional penalties the team received
- The league is setting a precedent to levying additional penalties for velocity infractions

3.
I have not argued the effect was minor (or major for that matter) - it is completely inconsequential to me

4.
I have not asserted the league should not set standards - quite the contrary actually - I am saying they should set such standards, before they run around enforcing unknown standards willy nilly, especially when the conduct we are discussing, is already covered by the existing rules..... NOT outside of them, NOT an occurance the rulebook had not taken into account already.

Egregious? - come on - if every shot at a PSP event above 319 was egregious, I am pretty sure the rulebook would look very different in the section on velocity.... and I am also pretty sure you would see a LOT more players and teams receiving additional penalties after events.

If the PSP is unhappy with their own rules, they should change them, then go about enforcing them, not the other way around.... and I will look forward to an update of the existing rulebook, prior to the World Cup, covering similar infractions

5. I am not attacking the messenger, and I am sorry if you feel attacked.... I am having a principle debate on how a sports league should enforce rules.... you are more than welcome to join in, now that you have no cause to feel attacked anymore

[MaG Adrenal1ne]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

These kinds of posts always makes me wonder

Why is it important to you that the thread dies??

Because what ate you gaining from this argument?

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by MaG Adrenal1ne

Because what ate you gaining from this argument?

Entertainment - do you mind?

[MaG Adrenal1ne]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

Entertainment - do you mind?

Oh that's what its called now a days .. my fault. Continue.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

A bunch of points asked and answered....

The PSP Press Release on the matter explained the whole thing pretty well:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by PSP Press Release

PSP has come to a decision regarding the incident at the PSP West Coast event in which the professional team TonTons Flinguers had numerous guns in excess of competitive allowances and safety standards.

Penalties for the hot guns were issued during the event per the PSP rules governing game play.

PSP has decided that additional sanctions are warranted following review of game footage, testimony of officials on site, examination of equipment, and interviews with TonTons players.

One or more members of the team willfully took the field with intention of playing the game while knowing their markers were in excess of allowable speed limits. The players in question showed an unjustifiable disregard for the standards in which tournament paintball can safely and fairly be conducted.

The number of players and the degree of excess warrant the additional sanctions. PSP feels the actions fall into the area of unsportsmanlike behavior.

As such, all TonTons matches during the event in which the incidents occurred will be forfeited. The TonTons team will receive zero seed points for the 4th event. Event standings for other teams will be adjusted accordingly.

In addition, the TonTons team will be allowed to play PSP events on a probationary basis through Nov 1st, 2014. The specifics of the probation will be made clear to the team. In general, any violation of the probation will result in the entered team and all players being suspended indefinitely from PSP events, as well as the organization, TonTons Flinguers, being barred from competition in future PSP events.

[Sabb]

I can not believe that raehl is even remotely associated with the PSP. Shame on him for feeding the trolls.

It all just makes me wonder if the word "professionalism" is even in the paintball industry's vocabulary.

[MisfitKillaz]

wow take one of the best parts of the psp for 2013 and slap them with a probation and penalties, making it so they don't return for world cup. I see the psp as being as much at fault for endangering other players by allowing a situation like that to happen. rules are nothing without enforcement, its amazing that needs to be said on a paintball forum where cheating is just a part of the game.

[AustinHembo]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

Well, I guess you don't read my posts either, or possibly my english is failing me - because you keep skirting the issue

1.
The majority of the team knew their guns were shooting hot?

According to Lanes own posts in here, there was "no evidence that the TonTon's engaged in intentional acts to gain advantage over teams and no evidence that malice was involved"

So I am having a hard time finding justification for your assertion that "the majority of the team knew their guns were shooting that hot"..... but again, you may be privy to information I am not, and right about now would be the perfect time to bring such information to the table?

2.
What exactly do you mean by "out of standard"? - Nobody has claimed the Tontons equipment was not standard, so I am guessing you mean a paintball gun is "out of standard" when shooting hot?

Which brings me back to my original point:
- Velocity rules are covered by the existing rulebook
- Penalties for velocity infractions are clear as per the rulebook, and were enforced (rightly so) during the game
- There are no rules covering the additional penalties the team received
- The league is setting a precedent to levying additional penalties for velocity infractions

3.
I have not argued the effect was minor (or major for that matter) - it is completely inconsequential to me

4.
I have not asserted the league should not set standards - quite the contrary actually - I am saying they should set such standards, before they run around enforcing unknown standards willy nilly, especially when the conduct we are discussing, is already covered by the existing rules..... NOT outside of them, NOT an occurance the rulebook had not taken into account already.

Egregious? - come on - if every shot at a PSP event above 319 was egregious, I am pretty sure the rulebook would look very different in the section on velocity.... and I am also pretty sure you would see a LOT more players and teams receiving additional penalties after events.

If the PSP is unhappy with their own rules, they should change them, then go about enforcing them, not the other way around.... and I will look forward to an update of the existing rulebook, prior to the World Cup, covering similar infractions

5. I am not attacking the messenger, and I am sorry if you feel attacked.... I am having a principle debate on how a sports league should enforce rules.... you are more than welcome to join in, now that you have no cause to feel attacked anymore

Completely agree

[Nokia6618]

Originally Posted by raehl

Were you at the meeting? We're you even in the same country?

Do you have any idea at all where I was the Sunday of west coast open?

If I were you I would just stop.



According to PSP 's release, PSP apparently believes that tontons took the field with equipment that they knew was shooting over the limit. You are certainly welcome to disagree with their conclusion. What you are not allowed to do is change the facts.

The chrono readings were 352, 322, 319 or 317, and 307. I know because I was there at the field minutes after it happened and asked, and because I have confirmed it with several other people who were there including the guy who actually did the chronographing.

This is corroborated by a stats database and live recorded video showing 3 players serving 2 minutes in the box. It is simply ridiculous to suggest that in the 30 minutes it took to sort this out that tontons let themselves serve 3 majors instead of 2 just because a regthrew the wrong flag in "confusion". They had 2 separate guns shooting 320, period.

There was nothing wrong with any oring. I know because I was there and personally held the equipment, including the regulator assembly, and personally talked to the tech.

Now, if you want to claim that a team with perfectly functional orings and that had guns shooting 350, 320, 320 and 307 did so entirely on accident, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

If you want to claim they didn'tget properly assessed a gross and two majors or that their orings were messed up, you are absolutely wrong.


- Chris

Chris,

Funny how fabrice columbo ( tonton team captain ) did not see you neither on the field nor at that meeting.. You rember him ? He used to work with you a few years back..

Still now that i got him to read this thread, i will leave it up to him to answer you..

[Andocommando]

It shows their payment is pending on APPA but no players are rostered

[Gwadaman]

By just looking at press releases, it appears that PSP provided no contextual data nor backuped their claim and the whole stuff just says “we are not sure what happened but we’ve made assumptions”; while TonTon’s release tries to be well-argued.
I’m just wondering, if TonTon’s press release is so inaccurate and, if i understand raehl posts correctly, so full of lies, why exactly PSP did not published a release stating the correct chrono; that, apparently, the broken reg story wasn’t true and so on… It’s not some local tourney with refs arguing against players on a tiny forum, we’re talking about a controversy between the PSP and a well-established pro team, sponsored by a huge paintball actor. Speaking of Dye I’m also surprised they didn’t made a statement regarding the “broken reg”, because at the moment their public image seems to suffer a little bit from this lack of support for either side.
That being said, I find conspiracy theories, both ways, ridiculous. PSP wants more European team coming over, It seems that they’re just being very clumsy on the way they handle this. As I can understand you can be suspicious with TonTon telling the truth, you don't know them, I would love to see how in the world it’s an advantage to shoot at 330+fps. I never played pro but with all the markers I had the chance to play these last 10 years when I was shooting at this range there was a mighty lack of accuracy, nasty shoping, paint breaks, …
And by the way It was the best way I could notice my marker was hot. You guys whose can be absolutely sure your marker shoots at more than 300fps just by firing it are fabulous. I also find hilarious to read so much people really chocked that you can find markers that shoot over 320fps at a tourney. As a player and a ref I see that at almost every well sized event, and 352 is far from being the highest I’ve seen. Where I agree, is by saying it’s almost every time players fault by not checking their marker. Where I live temperature differences between morning and afternoon can be as ridiculous as chrono you can get on markers you checked two or less hours sooner.

It is simply ridiculous to suggest that in the 30 minutes it took to sort this out that tontons let themselves serve 3 majors instead of 2 just because a ref threw the wrong flag in "confusion".

With all due respect, are you playing or watching pro sports? Weekly you can find totally confused ref calls (penalty assessed to the wrong person, wrong penalty assessed) in many sports and they never repeal their call and you can do nothing about it except accept ref apologies at the end of the game. How many time in paintball have I seen a ref pull a penalty on the wrong team, even at high level and no they don’t replay the game.

[erikguti]

Originally Posted by pbkyle1991

My guess is that they wont have enough players, it would be kinda hard to come back from an upset especially after their game with aftershock when three players got penalties for shooting hot. 356 fps in a tournament? wtf was he thinking. Yeah they were smashin people off the break but yo gotta wonder why when their paintballs are goin 60 fps faster than yours. in my mind they need a break and need to focus on playing the game.

They always smash teams off the break, tontons are one of the best Breakout Lane shooting teams !!! you can put their guns at 275 and they still will be able to smash allot of people off the break !!!!

If you want to check it by your self here is a Video !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceME8f1jQWc check it from 17:15 ...

Hope this post help people that said that they were Shooting people of the break because of their high FPS !!!

[Vissa]

Originally Posted by erikguti

They always smash teams off the break, tontons are one of the best Breakout Lane shooting teams !!! you can put their guns at 275 and they still will be able to smash allot of people off the break !!!!

If you want to check it by your self here is a Video !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceME8f1jQWc check it from 17:15 ...

Hope this post help people that said that they were Shooting people of the break because of their high FPS !!!

One of the sickest games I watched in years. Especially with the commentary from Bear and Lang. 3 points within 1 minute 17. Sick!

You can say whatever you want about TonTons but they are one of the nicest teams to watch. Always aggressive!

[raehl]

Originally Posted by Gwadaman

if i understand raehl posts correctly, so full of lies,

I want to be clear that I don't think it's "full of lies".

I think there are those two particular factual points in the release that are not accurate. I don't know why they're not accurate - could be the players didn't see all the chrono readings. Could be something got lost in translation along the way.

I don't think those two points are a huge deal, UNLESS that mistaken information is being used to argue there is some sort of huge conspiracy afoot.

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree on what is an appropriate sanction. But when you start alleging conspiracy based on things like, "Why did the ref check tontons before aftershock, but then check the chrono on the aftershock pits before tontons pit?" you're getting a little ridiculous.


- Chris