[TheSilentAssassin]

The claim in question is this:

Originally Posted by PBOldTimer

I'm a Druid - which is traditionally a polytheist belief system. So it's OK that I be killed?

Martian showed why this was disingenuous.

It clearly said you should not fight or kill peaceful infadels <only the ones that were oppressing them>.

You have yet to give a proper response to this.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Thank you.

[macoooo]

If you hear the word of 'Islam', maybe some of you associated with terrorism, others think that islam is related to poverty, traditional and left behind. Actually those opinions arise because misunderstanding about islam.

Islam is both a religion and a way of life, islam stands for a specific set of religious beliefs, Islam denotes the action of submitting to, surrendering to, and falling into accord with the will and pleasure of Allah. The 'doers' of Islam are muslim. They are those who believe in the six pillars of islamic belief system and take part in the five pillars of Islamic practice.

Islam which was conveyed by The Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) in the 6th century, has become the second largest religion in the world which has one fourth of the worlds population. Many non muslims convert to Islam because they find the truth, it is rational religion, there are no doctrins in islam.

Nowdays many people misunderstand about Islam, they think that it is spread by sword. In addition it is associated to terrorism. Those opinions absolutely incorrect. Islam is a religion of peace, mercy and does not permit terrorism. Islam prohibits oppression, Allah The Most High says in a qudsee hadeeth :

" O my servants, indeed I have prohibited oppression upon myself, and I have prohibited it amongst you so do not be oppressive".

Islam is not spread by sword. The Messengger (May peace be upon him) was sent as a mercy to mankind, He (May peace be upon him) brought peacefulness, Allah (The all mighty) says on quran: "We have not sent you except as a mercy to mankind".

Ibnu AbbasMay Allah favor him said : "Whomsoever follow the prophet May Peace be upon him, they will get the mercy in the world and the day after.

Islam came with mercy for all creation through the beauty of the islamic legislation which establishes justice, fairness and advocate, the grounds for security and stability in communities. Allah The Most High says in the Holy Quran :

" But seek, through that which Allah has given you, the home of the Hereafter; and [yet], do not forget your share of the world. And do good as Allah has done good to you. And desire not corruption in the land, Allah does not like corrupters." [Al-Qasas: 77].

In this Ayah Allah The Most High, orders His slaves to seek the blessing given from Allah, but do not forget their share of the world, and His also orders to good deed, but forbids to corrupt or do destruction, because it can cause instability in life.

In another Ayah Allah The Most High, says :

" Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded." [An-Nahl: 90].

Immorality includes; every greater sin likes shirk, killing another illegally, sexual act without married, looting, arrogant, humiliate to the others. Bad conduct includes every sin and wickedness related to the rights of Allah. Oppression includes every act oppresses to the life being, to the soul, to the property and their honors.

Those Ayahs tell us that Islam is full of Mercy and far from oppression. Let us take a look on sunnah as a second basic rule after Quran. From Abu Hurairah May Allah pleased him, The Prophet May Peace be upon him said :

"Whomsoever not to love another, thus will not be loved".[reported by Bukhari].

From Jarir bin Abdullah May Allah pleased upon him, The Prophet May peace be upon him said; " Allah does not love those who do not love another".[Reported by Bukhari]

In Islam there is jihaad. It is different from terrorism, jihaad is maintained to protect the rights, the property and the honor, not to occupy and take the rights and the properties as the colonizer did, but to establish the peak of the mercy that is Tawhid, and jihaad has etiquettes that must be followed. These etiquettes emerge from Allah and The Prophet. like; not to kill the children, civilian, women and elderly people, even the animals, and not to kill the surrenders, prisoners, disturb them or torture the enemy's dead body, and not to destroy the bulding of worship.

From those Ayahs and Sunnahs/hadeeths and still many more from the story of sahabah and other rigteous predecasors. We come to conclusion that islam is far from terrorism actions and oppression and other negative actions, on the contrary islam is full of mercy, peacefullness, and justice even to other religions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oh1DDFx6Kk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou0oCs7R0Js
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2WStmyWbmk

[PBOldTimer]

Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin

Martian showed why this was disingenuous.
You have yet to give a proper response to this.

Then here's my response:
I'm a Druid, but who gets to decide if I'm a peaceful or non-peaceful infadel? If I protest with violence, the answer is obvious. But what if I protest with words? What if I draw pictures of Mohammad? What if I publicy (not violently) challenge Islam? At this point, am I peaceful or not peaceful? Who gets to decide if I should die or not?

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by PBOldTimer

Then here's my response:
I'm a Druid, but who gets to decide if I'm a peaceful or non-peaceful infadel? If I protest with violence, the answer is obvious. But what if I protest with words? What if I draw pictures of Mohammad? What if I publicy (not violently) challenge Islam? At this point, am I peaceful or not peaceful? Who gets to decide if I should die or not?

That's not a response that is another question. His post was specific in regards to violence. Stop dodging.

You probably didn't read this either:

8. Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

[PBOldTimer]

Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch

That's not a response that is another question. His post was specific in regards to violence. Stop dodging.

You probably didn't read this either:

That's about as useful as some of the crap that can be found in the Bible.

[Iamamartianchurch]

You know what, nevermind. Your original question was answered. Shift the goal posts all you want. I'm done here.

[macoooo]

When Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) died, Amr was appointed ruler over Oman and during the caliphate of Umar he performed his famous deeds in the Syrian wars and then in the liberation of Egypt from the rule of Rome.

Whenever the Muslims were facing danger, Amr would deal with these events in a commanding manner, as one who possesses intelligence, wits, and a capability, which made him self-confident and proud of his excellence.

Amr was honest to the extent that Umar Ibn Al-Khaftaab who was strict in choosing his governor, chose him as governor over Palestine and Jordan, then over Egypt.

He was also very sharp-witted with strong intuitive understanding and deep vision, so much so that whenever Umar saw a person incapable of artifice, he clapped his palms in astonishment and said, "Glory be to Allah! Indeed, the Creator of this and the Creator of Amr Ibn Al-Aas. Is one God!"

Amr was the one who liberated Egypt from the hegemony of two imperial powers, two modes of worship of two countries, and the worst punishment, the imperial power of Persia and the imperial power of Rome.

Amr and his Muslim army did not conquer Egypt but opened the way for Egypt to attach its destiny to the truth, tie its fate to justice, and find itself and its reality in the light of the words of Allah and the principles of Islam.

Amr was very careful in separating the citizens of Egypt and its Copts away from the army and keep the fighting restricted between himself and the Romans who occupied the land and robbed the wealth of its people.

He tried to convince some of the Christian leaders and their high priest to join the path of light by saying: "Indeed Allah sent Muhammad with the truth and ordered him to teach it. The Prophet carried out his mission, and he died after leaving us on that path, the clear straight path. Among the things he ordered us to do was to be responsible to the people, so we call you to Islam. Whoever responds is of us. He has what we have and he has the same rights and obligations as we do. And whoever does not respond to Islam, we enforce on him the payment of jizyah and we offer to him defense and protection. Our Prophet informed us that Egypt would open for us and advised us to be good to its people, saying: 'Egypt will be opened to you after me, so you are advised to treat its Copts well, for indeed, they have a covenant of protection and kinship relations,' so if you answer to what we call you to, you will have protection and security."

As soon as Amr finished speech some of the priests and rabbis shouted, saying: "Indeed the kinship of which your Prophet advised you is a remote kinship relationship, the like of which cannot be reached except by the prophets."

This was a perfect beginning for understanding between Amr and the Copts of Egypt, despite the fact that the Roman leader tried all what he could to destroy this tie.

Amr was very daring and unhesitant. He used to combine his daring with his wits in some instances so that he would be thought to be cowardly or hesitant. However, it was the capacity to trick, which Amr perfected with great skill to get himself out of a destructive crisis.

An evidence of Amr�s wits and his skill of intuitive insight, is seen in his position with respect to the commander of the Citadel of Babylon (near present day Cairo) during his war with Rome in Egypt and, in another historical narration, in the battle we shall mention which took place in Yarmuuk with Artubun of Rome.

When Artubun invited Amr to talk, they gave an order to some of their men to throw a rock at him immediately upon his departure from the Citadel and to prepare everything so that the killing of Amr would be an inevitable matter.

Amr met the commander, not suspecting anything from him, and their meeting ended. While Amr was on his way out of the Citadel, he glimpsed over the walls something suspicious that aroused in him a strong sense of danger, and immediately he behaved in an outstanding manner.

He returned back to the commander of the Citadel, in safe, secure, slow steps, with confident, happy feelings, as if nothing had scared him at all or had aroused his suspicion. He met the commander and said to him, "An idea came across my mind I wanted you to know. I have with me, where my companions are camped, a group from among the first Companions of the Messenger to enter into Islam. The Commander of the Faithful would not decide anything without consulting them and would not send an army unless he put them at the head of its fighters and soldiers. I will bring them to you so that they hear from you that which I heard, so they will become as clear in the matter as I am."

The Roman commander felt that Amr had granted him the opportunity of a lifetime. Therefore, he thought. Let us agree with him, and when he returns with this number of Muslim commanders and the best of their men and their leaders, we will deliver the coup de grace and finish off all of them at once, instead of killing Amr alone.

Secretly he gave his order to put off the plan that was devised to assassinate Amr, and he saw Amr off cordially and shook his hand with enthusiasm and fervor. Amr smiled the most intelligent of Arab smiles as he was leaving the Citadel.

In the morning Amr returned to the Citadel at the head of an army, mounted on his horse.

In A.H. 43, death caught up with Amr Ibn Al-Aas in Egypt, where he was ruling

[macoooo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKdz05PWHZ0

[macoooo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE31HRTN_k8

[Eric the Fish]

Actuall Iammartianchurch you can quote the Quaran all you want and point to how unbelivers " should " be treated but you need to see how unbelievers are ACTUALLY treated in Muslim dominant countries. Forced conversions of nonbeliver women that muslim men take a fancy to. Destruction of christian, jewish, churches/temples with no rebuilding allowed. Blasphemy laws that only take the word of a muslim to put an unbeliever in jail or to death with no recourse. Jizya taxes. Advice against befriending nonbelievers. Advice saying its ok to lie to non believers in order to get what you want. Shall I go on?

[Iamamartianchurch]

Muslims violating laws of their own religion is not my problem or my concern.

[macoooo]

Put quite simply, Jizyah is a tax imposed on christian and Jews living under Sharia law. There are argument for and against the Jizyah. However, the arguments for Jizyah, in my opinion are not compatible with arguments for liberty and equality in a society. I will give some reasons why;



1) Zakat; Zakat is usually a strawman argument used to say that "if muslims pay zakat to feed the poor, why shouldnt Jews/Xtains pay Jizyah". The problem with this argument is that Jizyah is not specifically meant for the poor and secondly, why not have everyone just only pay Zakat? Zakat and Jizyah are two different financial terms, one as a moral duty to feed the poor and the other to protect the rights of the non-muslim minority. Liberty and equality demand that everyone in a state should have equal rights and free to their own beliefs. Would it not be fairer if everyone paid the same taxes- everyone pays Zakat only.


2) Dividing people by religion; Another argument for the Jizyah is that non-muslims do not/did not fight in the wars against Islam and so, it is a payment for protection from the Islamic state. The problem here is that why not allow their non-muslim citizens to fight? If Jews enjoyed freedoms in the past under Sharia, why wouldnt they have fought for their liberty and freedom? Is there anyone that is sane that wouldnt want to protect his wealth and freedom that was protected by the state
2. The Jizya, which is a form of tax, only levied upon able-young-healthy working men (unlike western taxes, it doesn't apply to women or anyone else) - happens only after you've been in a state of war. (Not to mention that; I'm pretty sure if I didn't pay my taxes in a secular country I'd be sent to jail.)

If you're not a "people of the book" then you're still taxed, but as a Mu'ahid (someone who has a covenant with Muslims) and again, it only applies, to young, healthy, working men who can afford to pay it.

As the Prophet(pbuh) said;

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:

The Prophet said. "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)." Volume 9. Book 83. Number 49





Dhimmi
Pay Jizyah

Muslim
Pay zakat and charity and feed the needy ... And so on


Dhimmi
Do not join the Islamic Army

Muslim defends dhimmi life and property and land


Dhimmi can repair places of worship

Non-Muslim dont need to pay tax like Muslim give zakat. They have to pay general country tax. A Muslim can give zakat or pay tax for non-Muslim in a Islam dominated country.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIxZ5st6skM

[macoooo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTB6KXVm6DI