[eforcegtid00d]

Originally Posted by ***MINIONS***

false. 16 pro teams in nppl and 10 in psp. good amount of those pro teams play both formats. how would that work?
if the merger is going to work it has to have a format change.

Nothing a little scheduling magic can't fix.

[***MINIONS*** (Banned)]

Originally Posted by eforcegtid00d

Nothing a little scheduling magic can't fix.

magic... that's exactly what paintball needs. lol

[eforcegtid00d]

Do you have a problem with having Emma Watson at the next PSP event?

[mcgyver]

If you ask me, the "game types" are becoming more blurred these days than ever.

The PSP rule changes have really taken the Xball mold and changed it. Only coaching on one side, bigger field, ramping below 15, no more penalty box and its not a battle royal for one match. Xball these days has more in common with seven man than what used to be called Xball. I'm trying to think of the last layout I saw from the PSP where the X/A was a key bunker, something teams tossed bodies into, instead of just a lane blocker. Seven man is certainly different in that every body counts and your team is more dependent on communication. But I see the same reckless style of play that I do in the PSP. Everyone seems to think that the two leagues are miles apart when actually I think they are growing closer together.

I think a 5 event season would be great as well as a merger, this way more teams will show up and events will be massive, there will be more combined capital to host bigger and better events. I don't know if one league seems to think that if the other dies their numbers will skyrocket or what. Another bad situation that a merger potentially creates is that of a monopoly. Entry fees and paint prices could grow incredibly because theres no where else to play. And don't try to tell me that industry leaders wouldn't want to get every dollar they can.

[coreyn]

Having two leagues really isn't a big deal to me. Having two completely different formats in the two leagues is.
There should be no PSP vs. NPPL just because of format reasons (which is basically what's happening now)
It should be PSP vs. NPPL because of who throws the best events.

Or a merge would work...

I say there should no longer be coaching because I feel it has hurt the sport.
It may have attracted the younger generation, but the older people aren't as into it. If you haven't stopped and taken a look around in the world, older people typically have the money

Merger or not, there needs to be a unified format, played by the pros, world wide, that everyone can play, old or young.

[FazWilder]

10 man and hyper pipe

[eforcegtid00d]

Originally Posted by coreyn

I say there should no longer be coaching because I feel it has hurt the sport.
It may have attracted the younger generation, but the older people aren't as into it. If you haven't stopped and taken a look around in the world, older people typically have the money

While older players may not like coaching, parents of younger players are much more likely to get involved (and in turn financially support their kids) if they feel they can actually be a part of the game, and coaching gives them that opportunity. Although in the short term coaching may be a negative influence, in the long term it may keep the younger players involved as they grow and the presence of parents at practice and events will encourage parents of new players to also participate and encourage their kids to play.

[coreyn]

Right, but back before coaching I had a few friends who's Dads actually played tournaments with their sons. Xball doesn't really allow for this as much as a format without coaching. Since most people now a days in this area play xball, the younger kids wants to play the popular format.

The parents can still do everything to help encourage the kids without coaching in place. Personally, I don't want a mom/dad who doesn't play coaching me. I want a paintball player who knows the game to coach me. AKA. a parent who PLAYS paintball would work.

It's totally different having your Dad play beside you on the field rather than on the sideline.

I know taking away coaching is like trying to take caffeine away from people, but eh. I just see it having more negative effects on the game than positive.

[eforcegtid00d]

Originally Posted by coreyn

Right, but back before coaching I had a few friends who's Dads actually played tournaments with their sons. Xball doesn't really allow for this as much as a format without coaching. Since most people now a days in this area play xball, the younger kids wants to play the popular format.

The parents can still do everything to help encourage the kids without coaching in place. Personally, I don't want a mom/dad who doesn't play coaching me. I want a paintball player who knows the game to coach me. AKA. a parent who PLAYS paintball would work.

It's totally different having your Dad play beside you on the field rather than on the sideline.

I know taking away coaching is like trying to take caffeine away from people, but eh. I just see it having more negative effects on the game than positive.

Have you asked yourself why xball is a popular format? It offers a fast pace, lots of playing time, and it's far more forgiving in terms of mistakes. I like playing 7-man and I think it's a challenging game, but from an outside standpoint, it's just not cool to watch and the lack of interaction between spectators and players makes it even less plausible as a sustainable format. Coaching fills the void and speeds up gameplay to a level where you can actually feel the intensity even if you're only on the sidelines. No coaching is great for the players on field but I think it's a bad move when trying to draw in spectators and future participants. Please understand that I would like the format to continue to be offered and I have a deep respect for the teams that put in the work to be successful in this format, but in all fairness, history tells you everything you need to know about which format is more likely to survive if a merger is needed. While I hate getting mowed down on the way to bunker somebody because some kid on the sideline said "he's coming" I get the feeling that I would be a lot less happy if I didn't even have a field to play on because competing formats killed everything.

[tremis]

The thing I noticed about coaching is that the best coaches are players who learned to play without coaching. Players learned the skill of reading what was going on during the game with a very limited view of the field. When those players were put into a position where they could see everything, they became gods who directed their minions with the utmost efficiency. When I see guys coaching that always played on the field with that godlike coach directing them, they generally perform very poorly as a coach. They never learned to read a game as it was happening because they were always told what was happening. I wonder where the logical conclusion takes us? It appears to me that paintball will eventually run out of smart players who can turn that on field intelligence into stellar coaching.

[skateboarderze]

Originally Posted by tremis

The thing I noticed about coaching is that the best coaches are players who learned to play without coaching. Players learned the skill of reading what was going on during the game with a very limited view of the field. When those players were put into a position where they could see everything, they became gods who directed their minions with the utmost efficiency. When I see guys coaching that always played on the field with that godlike coach directing them, they generally perform very poorly as a coach. They never learned to read a game as it was happening because they were always told what was happening. I wonder where the logical conclusion takes us? It appears to me that paintball will eventually run out of smart players who can turn that on field intelligence into stellar coaching.

Nailed that one man!

[***MINIONS*** (Banned)]

Originally Posted by tremis

The thing I noticed about coaching is that the best coaches are players who learned to play without coaching. Players learned the skill of reading what was going on during the game with a very limited view of the field. When those players were put into a position where they could see everything, they became gods who directed their minions with the utmost efficiency. When I see guys coaching that always played on the field with that godlike coach directing them, they generally perform very poorly as a coach. They never learned to read a game as it was happening because they were always told what was happening. I wonder where the logical conclusion takes us? It appears to me that paintball will eventually run out of smart players who can turn that on field intelligence into stellar coaching.

wow. well put!

[Blacc Dragon]

Each format (league) has it's own pros & cons. The biggest problem that a merger presents, is that each format also has it's own diehard participants that won't play any other format, that you will alienate w/ a merger. That would not be good for the newly formed league, or paintball as a whole.

There is no perfect format for paintball, because every paintball player wants something different in their tournament. I think that most players choose between the lesser of two evils, rather than have a format that they truly love. No one seems to be completely happy w/ the format that they play, but dislike it less than the other choices.

There is already too much homogenization in the paintball world as it is. Paintball went from a sport of individualism, to a sport where everyone seems to want to emulate the person next to them. That individualism is what drives most of the innovations in this sport!

I think a leadership merger would be great for paintball, both leagues do things right that the other league can't seem to duplicate. A merger of business leaders would make both tournaments run better, but neither format should be lost.

[coreyn]

Originally Posted by eforcegtid00d

Have you asked yourself why xball is a popular format? It offers a fast pace, lots of playing time, and it's far more forgiving in terms of mistakes. I like playing 7-man and I think it's a challenging game, but from an outside standpoint, it's just not cool to watch and the lack of interaction between spectators and players makes it even less plausible as a sustainable format. Coaching fills the void and speeds up gameplay to a level where you can actually feel the intensity even if you're only on the sidelines. No coaching is great for the players on field but I think it's a bad move when trying to draw in spectators and future participants. Please understand that I would like the format to continue to be offered and I have a deep respect for the teams that put in the work to be successful in this format, but in all fairness, history tells you everything you need to know about which format is more likely to survive if a merger is needed. While I hate getting mowed down on the way to bunker somebody because some kid on the sideline said "he's coming" I get the feeling that I would be a lot less happy if I didn't even have a field to play on because competing formats killed everything.

I'll answer this easily.
Spectators don't help support paintball, the players do.
Picking a format over another because it's more fun to watch does nothing for the players. Paintball will not be a spectator sport anytime soon unless some crazy new format comes out. Coaching doesn't draw any new participants into the game. Paintball does. The sport in general is what draws people into it, not coaching. When I explain the coaching aspect to people who don't know anything about paintball, most of the time I get this reaction.
"So the people on the side tell you where everyone is at on the field? That doesn't seem fun."

With that said, I think the leagues should start looking at making rules/formats that are designed to be better for the players, not the spectators. The vast majority of the spectators at events are players anyway, they're going to like watching paintball regardless.

[TatorTech]

Tators Two Cents : I believe both the leagues have really good things going for them right now. Nppl in my mind has kept paintball the way it should be with semi auto as the shooting mode. With having guns on semi auto, teams are more likely to make big moves that can make or break a game.(This is what people wanna see) There is nothing better than to watch a team double punch the fifty and shoot three to four guys off the break which always seems to get the crowd going.Then you get the one guy on a team that has the best gun skills that can snapshoot three guys out every game. ( Snapshoot = 1or2 ball not 8to10) It takes more skill to shot your gun in semi than pulling the trigger 3 times and get 12.5 balls. I also have to say that Nppl has some of the best locations for paintball events.The locations being Viva Las Vegas, Washington DC, Huntington Beach, and Chi Town. At all these events you will find professional staff, referee's and a great trade show.I have personally played in the NPPL and would rate as a 7 overall.

I just recently played in the past PSP Chicago and have been to plenty other PSP events as well. I have not been a big fan of PSP because I don't think that's the way paintball should be played. You have sideline coaching which is just the dumbest thing ever.I thing it takes so much of the skill out of the game and also does nothing but start arguments and sometimes fight. This year at Chicago PSP I had to hold back a guy from literally killing a sideline counter coacher. This team was counter coached bad enough to were the player ran off the field, through the pits, all the way around to the sideline to kill a guy. Now for those that played you know that was a decent distance.This guy was was pretty big too,there were two other guys helping me hold him back. This guys team traveled from Brazil and was so upset they spent all that money just to get screwed over. I know everyone is thinking "don't listen to the coaching " which I agree but then sometimes you have someone that comes to you and ask "Would you guys like me to help coach you". You are kinda relieved until you find out after two games its a friend of the opposing team or Hk Guys!! The PSP can only handle so much with having a AWESOME trade show/party and making sure the venue goes great. I would also like to add that PSP does have a great staff and referee's.

NPPL + PSP should merge!!

Xball format with 5on5 or 7on7
Semi Auto Uncapped
No Coaching
Huge Trade show
NPPL great venue locations

NPPL-PSP = NPPSPL



Could you imagine that format?? That would be awesome to watch on ESPN.

[Labelskate]

Originally Posted by tremis

The thing I noticed about coaching is that the best coaches are players who learned to play without coaching. Players learned the skill of reading what was going on during the game with a very limited view of the field. When those players were put into a position where they could see everything, they became gods who directed their minions with the utmost efficiency. When I see guys coaching that always played on the field with that godlike coach directing them, they generally perform very poorly as a coach. They never learned to read a game as it was happening because they were always told what was happening. I wonder where the logical conclusion takes us? It appears to me that paintball will eventually run out of smart players who can turn that on field intelligence into stellar coaching.

spoken like a true og

[tremis]

I remember the arguments that Constant Air would ruin the game. When I started (89) the locals were 50/50 12 grams/CA. I didnt buy it. I remember the arguments that Semi auto would ruin the game. I didnt buy that either. Electros? Same thing, still didnt buy it. I played possibly the first game of Xball ever. This was before the Nations Cup where it was debuted. We were a test team for them to tune the rules. The coaching thing was touted as going to ruin the game. For the first time, I wasnt so sure. Fast forward a bunch of years, and it didnt ruin the sport, but it sure did damage the players. Players now are more fit, have more physical attributes to help them win, of that there is no doubt. But field awareness, and game smarts has dwindled considerably. It's fantastic watching athletes play like athletes, but it is sometimes comical seeing these top level athletes trying to think for themselves in mid game.

I remember hearing Eric Felix of the Ironmen of Old talk about how he loved it when he was by himself in a 4 on 1 situation, because he had no teammates to depend on him and he could just freelance and go hunting. He had confidence that he was the smartest guy on the field. Add a decent coach in there and the 4 win every time...underwhelming.

How about Glenn Forster designing gameplans that were always off the wall and took another team by surprise? Avalanche and Dynasty won titles from his brain. Something he developed on the field.

And my favorite, On the dirt mounds of Pittsburgh, (The first concept field ever) Watching Lasoya all by himself in a corner with 8 guys from Personal Vendetta closing in. Because he was the smartest guy on the field and there was nobody directing PV from the sidelines, in a span of about 2 minutes, he was the only guy on the field and trotting the flag back. Fantastic stuff that we dont see anymore. That Jrab move in Chicago was weak compared to stuff that used to happen. But paintball used to reward intelligence more than athleticism.

[raehl]

I'm not sure you realize what you just did there.

How about Glenn Forster designing gameplans that were always off the wall and took another team by surprise? Avalanche and Dynasty won titles from his brain. Something he developed on the field.

People who are not playing shouldn't have input on the game because people who were not playing used to have input on the game?

I agree that with spectator participation (there is no coaching in PSP this season) it's less likely that, on any given point, a team comes back if they are down bodies. But, with XBall-type formats, that's OK, because there's more than one point. You may not see a team pull off a one-on-four much anymore, but you never used to see a team come back from when they were down 4 games to one either, because there was only one game.

It's also probably a bit much to pin the increase in athleticism on coaching. I won't say it has no effect, but it's tiny when compared to moving out of the woods and changes in demographics. More young kids started playing paintball, so more young kids are playing paintball. More young kids playing paintball means athleticism will go up. Coaching certainly doesn't keep an athletic kid from getting shot out on the break.

I played a lot of tournament paintball both before and after coaching. Now that coaching is gone and the most involvement is spectator participation from one sideline and 25-30 feet away from the closest player, I don't really think there's much of a difference, especially when you figure some people are coaching in events where it's illegal to do so anyway.

- Chris

[tremis]

You took from that, something that wasn't intended.
Glenn had great gameplans when he played. Even way back in the GBD days. When he was designing those off the wall, "how the hell did that work?" style plans I thought it was very cool. I enjoyed that as a player spectating. If one person from the other team was communicating with someone on the sidelines who could see what was going on, I imagine those types of plans would never work and the game outcome would revert to individual skill ( not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation).

I am not at all suggesting that coaching has helped the athleticism. As these athletic kids were starting to really blossom, it changed the game. The coaching appears to have, around the same time, diminish players ability to read the game as it was happening. My point about that was we used to have geniuses who almost seemed to have ESP and very few physical athletes. Now we have a plethora of physically gifted athletes and pretty slim pickings on those special players who knew what the other guys were doing before the other guys did. I don't know which is better. I know there are a few guys that fit both molds, there was years ago, and there is now.

I have no idea what spectators like to watch, I haven't been a non playing spectator ever. Trying to determine that, as a player, is foolish. We don't see the game from a spectators point of view. As a player, when I watch a game, I am looking for the smart moves, because I enjoy seeing that. Watching a team come back from 4 points down is not something I get a kick out of nearly as much as seeing a guy win a 4 on 1. The previously mentioned Lasoya game was the best game of paintball I have ever seen. Since with either current format, the most I could ever witness is a 7 on 1, I am pretty confident that it wont be outdone.

I guess when I jumped in this thread, I was just throwing out, as a player, what I like to see and how that has changed. Paintball is a sport that can greatly award intelligence and it was always something I liked. It's swung more towards rewarding athleticism but not nearly as much as traditional sports. So when I want to see athleticism I still watch traditional sports.

Maybe regular spectators appreciate that more than me, I don't know. I also wouldn't worry about catering to them, it's not like spectators(non plying spectators) bring any revenue.

I'm certainly not trying to bash formats. As someone watching a game I would rather see a team win 1 game/1 point with a brilliant game plan even if they weren't technically as good as their opponent, than seeing a team that's physically better come back from losing a game because they were out-thought and got to repeatedly work on adapting to the opponents (brilliant) game plan. But again that's just what I enjoy watching from a game, as a player.

Edited to add: I think if the nearest coaches were 30 away all the time, they would have less impact and that seems like one compromise that could be looked at.

[Loganinderrieden23]

Dont like the idea i like both leagues how they are

[raehl]

Originally Posted by tremis

Edited to add: I think if the nearest coaches were 30 away all the time, they would have less impact and that seems like one compromise that could be looked at.

That's basically where PSP is at now - you've got about 10 to 15 feet to the net, then another 15 to 20 feet to the player on the tape.

To the rest, I think a lot of people overestimate how effective coaching is. If you have two teams with players who have poor field awareness, coaching can definitely make a difference. Coaching allows the players with the better technical skills to take quicker advantage of a team that plays sloppy.

But if a team DOES have good field awareness, coaching isn't going to do much, because a player with good field awareness can act much faster than a player being coached.

Anyway, three or four years ago, the coaching difference was more significant. Nowadays, the spectator participation PSP has really isn't much different than the spectator participation NPPL has, especially when there are a lot of people watching.

So, my point is, if anyone is really that worried about coaching, you shouldn't be - the spectator participation that PSP has today is only a small step away from "no coaching".

- Chris