Well shoot, Aedes build hit a bit of a wall

cfos00 · 07-09-2012, 09:34 PM

So I decided to take on a build many have thought about but I haven't seen many try...a full Aedes build. It's going on a year and a half now, and I've hit a bit of a wall. Here's what I have so far, and what the problems are. Maybe someone smarter than I can help.

Full specs, looks, and operation:
Brass body with fixed .678 barrel and internal detent (from Ty McNeer) with Ego Lapco feedneck
MQ2
Viking Diet Milled Frame with UTB
Azodin reg---suprisingly pretty solid
CCM elbows and CP on/off
Custom Bolt (from Yoda900 on PBN/MCB)
It'll be getting either a full black durocoat, or very possibly a hawaiian fade from black to hibiscous to red. Here it is as it stands.

The bolt is a two stage bolt, with a mainspring and a bumper spring to slow it down in the cycle. This is literally the 7th generation bolt. We tried mag style, and it literally ripped the bolt in half (delrin and aluminum---completely destroyed). Bolt is based around the Aedes automations from ZDSPB.

So here are the two problems. I have bolt reset issues, and the worlds most efficient air powered blender. The reset i think can get taken care of with spring tuning, and may even be able to use a madman spring set if I open it internally a tiny, tiny bit (currently I can slide them in, but their locked against the internal wall---nothing some sanding can't fix). The other issue is trickier. It has a BIG blowback issue. This thing breaks balls like an angry stripper. I have no clue how in the world DW got around it. Does anyone have any ideas? The only thing I think of would be maybe slapping an o-ring on the back of the bolt head, but I worry that it'll get eaten up like it's nothing. We previously had some internally on the bolt, and they lasted roughly two to three shots. It's insane how violent the MQ2 really is. I'm determined to get this thing on the field, and I know those that have helped me out have viewed it as a personal challenge to get it running. It looks like it just has a couple baby steps left, but I'm not sure how to get over them. Any ideas are appreciated.

desertT1 · 07-09-2012, 11:37 PM

Does Colin come around here very often? I bet he could provide some insight if he is able.

63VDub · 07-10-2012, 10:27 AM

Have you tried lengthening your stroke (insert joke here) Most blowback I had on my custom build was from the bolt not truly sealing the breech before dumping the HP air. I found by pushing the bolt another tenth, my blowback died to almost nothing.

cfos00 · 07-10-2012, 05:50 PM

I have worked on the stroke (note: phrasing), and have it now where it ends just to where it should seal up the feedneck. When I allowed the overtravel, it was like a tornado up the feed. Was not good. And bolt placement is pretty much as far as it can be forward right now. If I put my finger against the wall and slide it into the breech, it goes straight from feedneck to bolt face.

I'm going to have to play with the dwell a little more, and see what happens.

cfos00 · 08-05-2012, 08:39 PM

IT FINALLY FRICKIN' WORKS!!!!

So I went out and played with Ty McNeer, an airsmith on MCB and a bunch of his guys today. Beyond having a great time playing with them, I also brought along the Aedes with it's new frame and a board. Last night, my new Frenzy frame with an OLED Ego board came in. It allowed for much more precise bolt control. I also was able to tune the bolt springs down, setting the bumper spring (cut down sheridan main spring) to the correct length, and get the mainspring tuned in.

We were able to put about a hopper and 4 pods through it. Only a few breaks, mainly when the air was dying down. It does need a little tuning, but we're talking tweaking it versus holy-crap-it-exploded-again. The respringing and timing from the board seem to have killed the problems that it was having. Big, big step forward. I'm a very happy human today. Here it is as it sits. It'll have a black durocoat over it soon.

keoni-svx · 08-05-2012, 11:49 PM

Love those frames.

Glad its working. Wish my ehm would

Dark Side · 08-06-2012, 07:59 AM

Very cool. Clean up the body and you have a winner.

FirePro84 · 08-13-2012, 03:50 PM

sounds like it's well on it's way :-)

just out of curiousity why did you choose such small bore barrel stock? I would think that underboring that much would cause issues with chopping paint a lot...

FrmrSpecialist · 08-13-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirePro84

sounds like it's well on it's way :-)

just out of curiousity why did you choose such small bore barrel stock? I would think that underboring that much would cause issues with chopping paint a lot...

I've been using the .678 eigen barrel since it came out and have never had an issue ..

Sometimes spoolies or variations of, are bit too reliant on a good paint to bore match. I figure better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it..

cfos00 · 08-13-2012, 06:55 PM

Yeah, not worried about barrel breaks...and not kidding, I had frickin roll outs of my cocker with a .679 insert. The underbore (most of the time) keeps shots consistent, or 'accurate' for me, and I haven't have barrel breaks as an issue with it either.

cfos00 · 10-01-2012, 12:07 AM

A few updates:

1. New trigger. The stock one was sticking and bouncing like crazy. Had to be fixed, so in goes an Acid Customs trigger. Much, much better.
2. New back steel cap for the bolt. After all the cycling, the aluminum cap was aging as well as a middle age coke whore. The tool steel should handle the pounding much better.
3. Durocoat in gloss black. Looks pretty nice.
4. Screw in place of the pin with an o-ring to lock the bolt into place. I'd rather not have it fly out of the gun anymore.

Still needs some timing work. I'll take it to the field again. Here she is now.

Vaxer boy · 10-01-2012, 02:55 PM

Sick man, I'm loving it!
I have always loved the Aedes design
I should hit Yoda up and see about getting me some parts.
Are you planning on putting eyes on it?
or leaving like this?

mass destruction · 10-01-2012, 05:58 PM

Shooting vid?

How come the aedes never made it to production anyway?

tree_of_E · 10-01-2012, 08:33 PM

that is gorgeous it looks like a production gun with the durcoating

cfos00 · 10-02-2012, 12:04 PM

They never made it to production for a few reasons, one I know and a few are guesses after making this one. The obvious one is the mq2 and it's patent, which deadly winds didn't hold. I'm guessing on these, but the bigger reasons would probably revolve around that bolt. We tweaked the design of the bolt on this and added the bumper spring because the bolt otherwise eats the bolt spring for breakfast. If they were sticking with the designs that I saw, I have no idea how they found a mainspring that would work over the long haul. Our bolts destroyed them, and did it extremely quickly. We had to change the design. The mainspring without the bumper spring also completely messes with the bolt stroke length, leading to blowback incredibly easily. While it's not a big deal when it's my gun that I have a lot of time/understanding/knowledge of and understand what's going on and what to do to change it, it becomes a huge deal when trying to sell them. The lack of reliably being able to time the bolt stroke and springing would get a lot of people to say the gun is broken when it's really just out of time---saying it would get a bad reputation for that is pretty much a lock unless everyone that bought one understood the ins-and-outs of the firing cycle. In other words, the timing on the bolt is far from idiot-proof, and you have to sell with the assumption that anything can and will happen to the marker. It also would be a liability concern, since the bolt hits like a Level 7 automag. If you put a finger into that breech and pull the trigger, the finger will lose badly. If those are the concerns that DW had like I would guess, I completely understand why they wouldn't put it into production.

As for this one, I'm taking her to the field this weekend and seeing if I can get a day out of it with minimal/no chops. We'll see. I used it a couple weeks ago, and it was chopping more than I wanted. I did play a whole afternoon with it, even with the previous issues. Beta testing is fun.

If I can get it to a happy place, we may get a video or two.

Durocoat is awesome. I highly recommend. And thanks for the kind words. It's been a group effort betwen Yoda, Ty, and I, and a heck of a learn experience. I like it a LOT as it sits now, and hopefully won't have to go the eyes route, but the best testing will tell me for sure.

cfos00 · 10-29-2013, 09:45 PM

Well, bit of an update. Got the bolt to stop with the blowback, and got the spring to live through quite a bit of cycling. Need to run paint through it to see if it's still got the ball clipping issue. Here's how she looks now.

- Aedes

FrmrSpecialist · 10-30-2013, 10:48 PM

I know it is a bit late, BUT if someone were to recreate this project couldn't they help slow thebolt speed by limiting the size of the valve opening in the body?

cfos00 · 10-30-2013, 11:53 PM

The problem ultimately is that you have to use a crazy amount of force to both move the bolt and shoot the ball extremely quickly, making it flat out brutal on paint. The design is, at best, problematic. This puppy has been a headache. Sad too, because I really do like it and REALLY want it to work.

FrmrSpecialist · 11-06-2013, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfos00

The problem ultimately is that you have to use a crazy amount of force to both move the bolt and shoot the ball extremely quickly, making it flat out brutal on paint. The design is, at best, problematic. This puppy has been a headache. Sad too, because I really do like it and REALLY want it to work.

I'm really trying to wrap my head around what the issues could be and how to mediate them design wise. Is there a minimum pressure that the MQ-valve works at? I would think that with all the air volume that is available with your design, that you would be able to increase the dwell to allow you to lower the OP.. Now if the minimum OP of the mqvalve is 200+ then yeah, I can see issues because no matter what you cannot drop below that..

Any guesses?

cfos00 · 11-07-2013, 12:15 AM

The issue is pretty simple. The bolt is flying forward crazy fast with a ton of force behind it, and it pretty brutal on paint. The pressure needed to seal and hit usable velocity is usually between 250 and 300 psi. It also needs to overcome the spring and carry the bolt. The volume actually lets me get a few pops after I take the tank off.

We have a couple ideas, but I need it to get some shop time. Haven't had a chance yet.

ironyusa · 11-07-2013, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfos00

The issue is pretty simple. The bolt is flying forward crazy fast with a ton of force behind it, and it pretty brutal on paint. The pressure needed to seal and hit usable velocity is usually between 250 and 300 psi. It also needs to overcome the spring and carry the bolt. The volume actually lets me get a few pops after I take the tank off.

We have a couple ideas, but I need it to get some shop time. Haven't had a chance yet.

First, I love the project. I have a sincere appreciation for my fellow tinkerers. Second, there are a few pretty interesting solutions to your paint handling issues. The issue I see is with your terminal bolt speed and forces. In effect, you're dealing with a blowforward bolt design (I know, yuck, but the forces are similar). The easiest solution while retaining the existing aedes bolt configuration is to drill a tiny (look at the tiny hole in the axe bolt guide... that's how they solved the horror stories of people getting fingers trapped in the v1 minis) through the guide into the spring chamber. The second part of that solution is to put an oring on the bolt guide and basically undercut the bolt ~.3" to control the forces in the earliest stages of the cycle. It is identical to the Lurker axe bolt. I know you don't really want to hear it, but the aedes valve action is very similar to the axe/mini. The difference is the MQ acts directly on the valve, whereas the axe solenoid dumps a chamber to create the bias shift of the poppet.

A couple things that may spark ideas for you is to look at the tippmann phenom/ XVR bolt configuration. Look at how bad DP g-series forces are and the force areas... you're running MUCH higher pressure so you're even worse off. I'll sketch something up and show you my thoughts.

If you need ideas or help with this project feel free to PM me.