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Old 12-22-2012, 12:08 AM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisWontHurt View Post
1) Mental illness is one thing. A lack of morals does not mean there is a lack of mental integrity or mental illness. If mental illness was a factor he will be let off the hook and put into custody of a mental institution for treatment. I'm guessing that won't happen.
The thing is, a lack of morals would mean that he wouldn't have guilt for committing the crime, but a lack of mental integrity means he wouldn't have a problem killing someone for little to no reason.

Quote:
2) Your right I have lived around murder my whole life so while I've grown callus to it it doesn't mean that if I see someone who I feel I want to help that I can't ask others to do the same. Unfortunately I can't fund raise for the families of every murder victim but If I see one I think I can legitly help I'm not going to sit silently and not ask others to help too. Yes it is because this is a fellow paintballer I want to help. And no if this wasn't a paintballer I wouldn't have heard about it because my wife would have just seen another murder happened and wouldn't have thought twice about telling me about it. I'm not sure I understand what the problem is.
The problem is that John's point was that it looks like you're only looking to raise funds because he was murdered and paintball was linked to him, not just because you feel bad about a teenager being killed by someone with no impulse control. It's not so much that you're trying to help, but it just seems like a special case because it made the news, which it's really no more special than a family that lost a member to a semi, but this is just public.

Think of the deal with Kony, so many people support anti-Kony even though there were other similar cases simply because it was in the news.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:10 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisWontHurt View Post
I don't see anything in the story to suggest the shooter was mentally ill. Bad parenting I can agree with but mental illness?

not saying he was mentally ill specifically, just stating the two main reasons for somebody doing something of this nature. what's happened this past month has been unspeakable, the orgin boils down to a personal level, not an inanimate object.... a tool. Our nations vast waste of money could be used to figure this issue out.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:22 AM #24
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Originally Posted by aresfiend View Post
The problem is that John's point was that it looks like you're only looking to raise funds because he was murdered and paintball was linked to him, not just because you feel bad about a teenager being killed by someone with no impulse control. It's not so much that you're trying to help, but it just seems like a special case because it made the news, which it's really no more special than a family that lost a member to a semi, but this is just public.

Think of the deal with Kony, so many people support anti-Kony even though there were other similar cases simply because it was in the news.
Then let me clarify my reasoning. From what I can tell he was a player of our fine sport. As a fellow player the least I can do is try to help his family in their time of need. It doesn't matter to me who the player the fact you are a player is all that is needed to warrant enough respect from me to make a request like I did. Things like this can tear families apart and cause huge financial strains on them as well.

I have no idea who Kony is or what she/he did.
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:23 AM #25
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Teen shot dead after paintball game, teen shot dead after paintball game, teen shot dead after paintball game... They couldnt say he was dead without mentioning paintball, I bet the same thing would have happened if the two were arguing over football, or soccer, or any other sport...

They are just trying to give paintball bad publicity, I think this article should be taken down from this site, not saying there shouldn't be a story about it on here, but the one written is like showing a fox news cast on abc. One re-written without such a bias would be way less harmful...

Read the second to last parapgraph, "After the teen was shot dead after a paintball game, police arrested McCahren and charged him in the killing of the Riggs High School sophomore." <-- Really, at the end of the article, where it was already mentioned at least three times, you have to make the sentence awkward just to be able to mention paintball. It's obvious the author just wanted to have paintball in the same sentence as the mention of arrest.

This kind of reminds me of that guy in Florida a while back who ate the face off the homeless guy, anyone remember that?! The first few days there were articles all over the place... "Guy high on bath salts eats face off" "Guy high on LSD eats face off" "Guy high on something eats face off" and they made each of the drugs look horrendous...And turns out the guy was high on, NOTHING! (no, really) So now millions of people who read those articles think the drugs cause symptoms they don't, because most people only read the main story not the follow up, and most importantly of all, because the media lies!
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:29 AM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codyclark View Post


If he wants to help someones family out then good for him and everyone involved,
at least he is suggesting doing something
instead of cutting people down like you are.
might want to be careful with the vid. mods might see it as trying to bypass the profanity filter.

Thanks for the support.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:38 AM #27
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Guys this is getting a little out of hand. Stay on the topic that was presented and please don't instigate.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:02 AM #28
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Guys this is getting a little out of hand. Stay on the topic that was presented and please don't instigate.
Actually I think they've stayed on topic well. Now they obviously don't agree with the proposal but I'm ok with that because if everyone agreed with me this would be a very boring world.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:25 AM #29
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Don't blame the parents unless they deserve it.

Let me stick up for parents here. I just have an issue blaming parents for their kids behavior. They are people like everybody else. You get the good, the bad, and the ugly for sure but kids have a mind of their own that parents cannot control. Let me tell you a story.

My wife and I were blessed with the 'child from hell'. Starting in his early teens, nothing but getting into trouble. First names with most of the local police force and juvenile justice system. Numerous suspensions from school. Out more than in. My wife are both college educated professionals with clinical experience and employment in mental health settings and school systems. Clinical experience with behaviorially disturbed children and adults. We had the knowledge, training, and experience to manage behaviors professionally. Did that do us any good. No. Simply No. Well maybe. You decide.

We sought professional counseling which he refused to participate in. We sought family counseling so the wife and I could sort through our differences in how to manage the day to day crisis that appeared. She wanted to nurture, I was in the 'he knows right from wrong and chooses wrong' camp Natural consequences. Our worst fear was he would commit a serious enough crime to be charged as an adult. We Literally spent his entire college education fund trying to get him through high school, alive, drug free, and without going to jail. We had good medical insurance, good incomes, and resources many families do not have. We could not imagine how a set of parents without our training and financial resources could possibly manage a simular situation. We have had discussions with parents about their children in simular situations. A sense of helplessness.

Then we had the Jonesboro Arkansas shootings. The same week, I was cleaning and poking around the basement and inside a broken speaker box I found a fully functional pipe bomb. 2" diameter, 10" long, packed with powder, hole in the cap with a fuse connected to a M-80 firecracker. Scared the begibbers out of me. People saying how could a child just kill someone, and All I could think was that it could have been MY SON. It would have leveled a office or classroom. I checked my locked firearm locker and handloading supplies. All intact. So he got the powder ELSEWHERE. From who? Someone else may be involved. Do you call the bomb squad and send him directly to jail or what?

That was a REAL consideration. His behavior was getting progressively worse. He was getting DANGEROUS.... Better in jail on a bomb charge than in jail for murdering other people. So I left it in place, changed the lock on the shop door, had a discussion with the wife who vetoed the idea, then my lawyer without my wifes knowledge or consent. I was seriously considering doing it anyway.

Couple of days later, he was arrested for felony shoplifting. Jewelery counter at Famous Barr, one week before Christmas where every other person is security. Duh! The juvenile officer informed him she was tired of looking at him. He had violated probation a dozen times. She was going to recommend he be tried as an adult at 16. That got his attention..... The idea of being somebody's young, blond pet down at Potosi Prison didn't appeal to him. He would be passed around like candy....

Mom freaked out and wanted to get a lawyer AGAIN. I said better to go to prison than hurt people. I was done with him. He made the decision for us.... Well, she made a decision without my consent. She was going to hire a lawyer anyway. Not with my money. His college ed fund was the only CASH we had and it was an inheritance that was not jointly held. I was given the choice of a divorce or writing a check. I wrote the check.
Plan C. I had in my possession a copy documentation in the family counseling records that the counselor had no problems or issues if we chose to lock him in his room to prevent his frequent run aways for weeks at a time. Provided 24 in house supervision. Toileting facilities, hygiene supplies, 3 square meals, hydration, and an emergency plan to evacuate him in an emergency quickly. So I decided to become a child abuser..... Chained him to the pole in the family room of the basement. On a 40 foot leash with access to a full bathroom, bed, couch, Video games, etc. Video taped leaving him food and water which he refused. Plush compared to a prison cell.
He always manipulated us by threatening to call the hot line and accuse us of child abuse. If found true, we would both loose our licenses to practice our profession. Mom was NOT happy. Told her if she didn't like it to call the hot line. She wanted the keys, No. You have no part of this. We need ONE person in this family that can make a living. You should really call the hot line before he does... You need to protect your license. Mine will be gone. Well, he called first. The sheriff and DFS worker knocked on the door. Come right in. He is in the basement. They took him into protective custody. Arrested both of us. I presented my documention from a phd counseling recommending that I do what I did. Handed them the video tapes. Released without bail the next morning after verifying the record. However, we both know about DFS from our clinicical experience. They have the authority to bring charges of child abuse that the prosecuting attorney generally rubber stamps. He was in a very awkward situation. It would be a crapshoot to get a conviction. He has better things to do but the policy is to aggressively prosecute child abusers which he should. He was very surprised I was happy to plead guilty with probation provided they sealed the court record. Why? He has destroyed my family. My marriage. and possibly my career. I would rather loose one son than my whole family. I told them about the bomb. He has to leave our home. We have tried everything, spent everything. He is dangerous to society. He can either go to jail as an adult or into DFS custody which was the better of two evils. They were scratching their heads but agreed. Then we played games with DFS. If you want to get your son back, you have to do this and this and that. "I don't want him back." We will make it part of your probation requirments. Then I will comply. They did, I did. Anger management classes. Pretty entertaining. I didn't PASS anger managment. No court order said I had to get less angry about my son's behavior. I insisted I had every right to be angry until he starts behaving like a decent human being. He is never coming back into my home. Write that down in your report.

Well, he had more rules in DFS custody than we could enforce at home. If he broke them, they would lock him up. Ironic isn't it. Parent lock them up it is a crime. State locks them up, it is not a crime. I sort of have an issue that society has more say than parents how to raise a child. Guess it depends on the parents... I've met some that weren't locked up long enough.

So, he barely wound up in foster care. Different school. Different kids. Mimimal contact with his buddies... Making new and better friends. Met a girl he took a shine too. His feloney theft wound up being handled as a juvie. If he was charged as an adult, DFS would no longer have jurisidiction or cutstody. THEY paid for his lawyer... He cleaned up his act. Decided he had pushed the juvenile justice system about as far as he could. Stopped the criminal activity. Got drug tested so often, he quit doing drugs. Mostly pot. Graduated a little late. He/They asked about going to college. He and DFS was told and shown the money spent was HALF of the college education fund and that was earmarked for his brother's college education. His half was gone...
I was able to maintain my license at considerable expense.
He decided the easiest way to go to college was the GI Bill and only the Army would have him with his juvie record. Security clearances require consent to look at juvie records. He didn't want to be a grunt and get shot at. Wound up running a Patriot Missle battery in Germany, Israel, and Turkey in the first gulf war. (is that almost a rocket scientist?) He liked the structure and disipline. Excelled at his job. Discovered his 140 IQ points and his stubborn streak (that he got from his father) could benefit him greatly in setting and reaching goals for himself. He was promoted as fast as he was eligible. Made sargent and they gave him a bunch of KIDs to deal with. Came home and mentioned he really had been a pain in the asp. So the family is all good with each other again. A general offered him a recommendation to West Point. A FREE college education that is by INVITATION ONLY which he turned down.... Served 6 years and opted out. Met his wife in Germany. Married and left the service and both of them came back to the states. Got a good paying job in a technical field where the company spends a fortune training you and pays to keep you. Making better than a lot of MBAs. Good enough for him but still thinking about going back to school. Wife is finnishing up her masters in computer science and she can make the big bucks while he goes to school. No kids. My theory is he does not want to replicate his gene pool or he really wants to get his degree first. So, we had a happy ending. It could have gone the other way SOooo easily. How close, even he isn't sure about. Ducked the question what he was thinking when he made that pipe bomb. It wasn't good thoughts for sure.

Raising kids is a crap shoot. They don't come with an owners manual. The IRS confirms they are a bad investment by giving you a write off from day one. Every generation of parents think their kids generation is going to hell. I don't agree. There is just a new set of challenges those parents have no clue how to manage... They generally do the best they can.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:32 PM #30
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Did you put the kid on drugs? Did you diagnose him with a fake disorder that doesn't even exist? I was surprised when I heard the kid being delinquent and that you had horrible luck, but stopped reading right after you said you were clinical mental health experts. There is no expert on mental health. It's all theory and more so a sham to sell drugs. Just from what I've read it probably is your fault if you labeled him then drugged him. If you did do this, good job. Your fault 100%
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:35 PM #31
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^^^. Replying to you btw. And by drug him I do mean pharmacuticals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Let me stick up for parents here. I just have an issue blaming parents for their kids behavior. They are people like everybody else. You get the good, the bad, and the ugly for sure but kids have a mind of their own that parents cannot control. Let me tell you a story.

My wife and I were blessed with the 'child from hell'. Starting in his early teens, nothing but getting into trouble. First names with most of the local police force and juvenile justice system. Numerous suspensions from school. Out more than in. My wife are both college educated professionals with clinical experience and employment in mental health settings and school systems. Clinical experience with behaviorially disturbed children and adults. We had the knowledge, training, and experience to manage behaviors professionally. Did that do us any good. No. Simply No. Well maybe. You decide.

We sought professional counseling which he refused to participate in. We sought family counseling so the wife and I could sort through our differences in how to manage the day to day crisis that appeared. She wanted to nurture, I was in the 'he knows right from wrong and chooses wrong' camp Natural consequences. Our worst fear was he would commit a serious enough crime to be charged as an adult. We Literally spent his entire college education fund trying to get him through high school, alive, drug free, and without going to jail. We had good medical insurance, good incomes, and resources many families do not have. We could not imagine how a set of parents without our training and financial resources could possibly manage a simular situation. We have had discussions with parents about their children in simular situations. A sense of helplessness.

Then we had the Jonesboro Arkansas shootings. The same week, I was cleaning and poking around the basement and inside a broken speaker box I found a fully functional pipe bomb. 2" diameter, 10" long, packed with powder, hole in the cap with a fuse connected to a M-80 firecracker. Scared the begibbers out of me. People saying how could a child just kill someone, and All I could think was that it could have been MY SON. It would have leveled a office or classroom. I checked my locked firearm locker and handloading supplies. All intact. So he got the powder ELSEWHERE. From who? Someone else may be involved. Do you call the bomb squad and send him directly to jail or what?

That was a REAL consideration. His behavior was getting progressively worse. He was getting DANGEROUS.... Better in jail on a bomb charge than in jail for murdering other people. So I left it in place, changed the lock on the shop door, had a discussion with the wife who vetoed the idea, then my lawyer without my wifes knowledge or consent. I was seriously considering doing it anyway.

Couple of days later, he was arrested for felony shoplifting. Jewelery counter at Famous Barr, one week before Christmas where every other person is security. Duh! The juvenile officer informed him she was tired of looking at him. He had violated probation a dozen times. She was going to recommend he be tried as an adult at 16. That got his attention..... The idea of being somebody's young, blond pet down at Potosi Prison didn't appeal to him. He would be passed around like candy....

Mom freaked out and wanted to get a lawyer AGAIN. I said better to go to prison than hurt people. I was done with him. He made the decision for us.... Well, she made a decision without my consent. She was going to hire a lawyer anyway. Not with my money. His college ed fund was the only CASH we had and it was an inheritance that was not jointly held. I was given the choice of a divorce or writing a check. I wrote the check.
Plan C. I had in my possession a copy documentation in the family counseling records that the counselor had no problems or issues if we chose to lock him in his room to prevent his frequent run aways for weeks at a time. Provided 24 in house supervision. Toileting facilities, hygiene supplies, 3 square meals, hydration, and an emergency plan to evacuate him in an emergency quickly. So I decided to become a child abuser..... Chained him to the pole in the family room of the basement. On a 40 foot leash with access to a full bathroom, bed, couch, Video games, etc. Video taped leaving him food and water which he refused. Plush compared to a prison cell.
He always manipulated us by threatening to call the hot line and accuse us of child abuse. If found true, we would both loose our licenses to practice our profession. Mom was NOT happy. Told her if she didn't like it to call the hot line. She wanted the keys, No. You have no part of this. We need ONE person in this family that can make a living. You should really call the hot line before he does... You need to protect your license. Mine will be gone. Well, he called first. The sheriff and DFS worker knocked on the door. Come right in. He is in the basement. They took him into protective custody. Arrested both of us. I presented my documention from a phd counseling recommending that I do what I did. Handed them the video tapes. Released without bail the next morning after verifying the record. However, we both know about DFS from our clinicical experience. They have the authority to bring charges of child abuse that the prosecuting attorney generally rubber stamps. He was in a very awkward situation. It would be a crapshoot to get a conviction. He has better things to do but the policy is to aggressively prosecute child abusers which he should. He was very surprised I was happy to plead guilty with probation provided they sealed the court record. Why? He has destroyed my family. My marriage. and possibly my career. I would rather loose one son than my whole family. I told them about the bomb. He has to leave our home. We have tried everything, spent everything. He is dangerous to society. He can either go to jail as an adult or into DFS custody which was the better of two evils. They were scratching their heads but agreed. Then we played games with DFS. If you want to get your son back, you have to do this and this and that. "I don't want him back." We will make it part of your probation requirments. Then I will comply. They did, I did. Anger management classes. Pretty entertaining. I didn't PASS anger managment. No court order said I had to get less angry about my son's behavior. I insisted I had every right to be angry until he starts behaving like a decent human being. He is never coming back into my home. Write that down in your report.

Well, he had more rules in DFS custody than we could enforce at home. If he broke them, they would lock him up. Ironic isn't it. Parent lock them up it is a crime. State locks them up, it is not a crime. I sort of have an issue that society has more say than parents how to raise a child. Guess it depends on the parents... I've met some that weren't locked up long enough.

So, he barely wound up in foster care. Different school. Different kids. Mimimal contact with his buddies... Making new and better friends. Met a girl he took a shine too. His feloney theft wound up being handled as a juvie. If he was charged as an adult, DFS would no longer have jurisidiction or cutstody. THEY paid for his lawyer... He cleaned up his act. Decided he had pushed the juvenile justice system about as far as he could. Stopped the criminal activity. Got drug tested so often, he quit doing drugs. Mostly pot. Graduated a little late. He/They asked about going to college. He and DFS was told and shown the money spent was HALF of the college education fund and that was earmarked for his brother's college education. His half was gone...
I was able to maintain my license at considerable expense.
He decided the easiest way to go to college was the GI Bill and only the Army would have him with his juvie record. Security clearances require consent to look at juvie records. He didn't want to be a grunt and get shot at. Wound up running a Patriot Missle battery in Germany, Israel, and Turkey in the first gulf war. (is that almost a rocket scientist?) He liked the structure and disipline. Excelled at his job. Discovered his 140 IQ points and his stubborn streak (that he got from his father) could benefit him greatly in setting and reaching goals for himself. He was promoted as fast as he was eligible. Made sargent and they gave him a bunch of KIDs to deal with. Came home and mentioned he really had been a pain in the asp. So the family is all good with each other again. A general offered him a recommendation to West Point. A FREE college education that is by INVITATION ONLY which he turned down.... Served 6 years and opted out. Met his wife in Germany. Married and left the service and both of them came back to the states. Got a good paying job in a technical field where the company spends a fortune training you and pays to keep you. Making better than a lot of MBAs. Good enough for him but still thinking about going back to school. Wife is finnishing up her masters in computer science .
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:23 PM #32
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He was diagnosed with a personality disorder mostly for the convenience of the insurance company. No, he did not need nor was prescribed any psychtropic medications. There is a joke in mental health circles. The trick to not getting diagnosed is to change your diagnosis often enough that nobody can pin a label on you. When you stay in one set of symptoms is when you get a diagnosis. There IS some truth to it. I get depressed, manic, excited, paranoid but I get over it and move on to next week. People that can cope with the adversity life throws at them are more or less mentally healthy.

Quote:
a fake disorder that doesn't even exist
The ICD9 diagnostic categories are very real. Each diagnosis is a cluster of symptoms and behaviors that are unique to each category. And each is managed differently based on the medical knowledge available at the time. Medications can be extremely effective at helping individuals function in a more efficient manner. Others have no medications that help. Individuals react diffrently to the same medication. Some respond well. Others not at all. I think you and I may agree in part about our health care systems over use of medications. In all areas of medicine. My beef is that the patient is handed a pamplet with print so small you need a magnifiying glass to read it. The Side effects reported are really hard to find and read. Nobody ever interviews the patient to evaluate if they are having side effects that require medical management. Part of it is economics. Pills are cheaper than counseling.
Another quip from the mental health community. "The nut doesn't fall too far from the tree." Sometimes the patient isn't the 'sickest' person in the family, just the most vunerable... You wonder why the family isn't getting diagnosed.

As we read in the news about people killing people for no apparent reason, it is pretty clear to everyone that there are LOTS of people out there need mental health services that aren't getting it. Our society has treated the mentally ill very badly over the ages. The stigma prevents a lot of people from seeking help. If they do, the resources available to them are nil or minimal even with health insurance. We got what we paid for. Mostly nada...
Overall, I just think our family was very much just plain LUCKY.
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Last edited by Boom Master : 02-07-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:20 AM #33
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There is no tests or actually any evidence they exist in the body. The idea of it being related to a chemical imbalance is a sham. Look up 60 minutes placebo. The drugs also don't do a thing. It's the placebo effect that's actually making people feel the way they think it's going to make them feel! Complete sham the whole thing really. There is obvious evidence. Don't be stupid.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:52 PM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottie Pumalate View Post
Did you put the kid on drugs? Did you diagnose him with a fake disorder that doesn't even exist? I was surprised when I heard the kid being delinquent and that you had horrible luck, but stopped reading right after you said you were clinical mental health experts. There is no expert on mental health. It's all theory and more so a sham to sell drugs. Just from what I've read it probably is your fault if you labeled him then drugged him. If you did do this, good job. Your fault 100%
I'm sorry, but you are wrong here. Mental health conditions are not just theory. They are real, and they are damaging, even if the root cause isn't a "chemical imbalance" (I'm not stupid i know it's not). Have you ever met someone with Dyslexia? ADHD? It is very clear that they are hindered by something internal and out of their control. I encourage you to rethink that position, and look into it a bit more. I'm telling you this from a standpoint of experience, i have ADD, and it has been explained to me personally by a man with a MD and PhD, it IS real, i DO suffer from it, and the prescriptions i am given DO help. It IS more of a mental disposition, and it certainly is not a "Disease" BUT that doesn't mean the conditions themselvs are "False" or "Marketing scams". People who recieve treatment (I.E. Me) are much better off after than before.

More to the topic, this is terrible I do question the bias of the story, and how paintball has a legitmate connection to the events that happened. I'm pretty sure no sane person would kill someone over a game of paintball, i guarantee there was some other motivation than that and the author is naive to focus so much on it. Nonetheless, i hope that both of the families make it through this tough time. In my opinion though, this kid should definently serve time, as his actions were inexcusable by any law anywhere.
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Last edited by jsgnado1996 : 02-27-2013 at 03:59 PM.
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