[Little_PB_Newb]

http://www.nppl.com/news/267

Is this a new one? Says you have to pay double to not submit a DVD

[Pakistani]

i posted this over on the "other paintball forum" and someone just mentioned something about Kenshin Photography having media rights to Pev's and the guys wife is a manager there? anyone have details on this?

[KGB-khrome]

Hey everyone, the price of the media pass is going upto $75 per person. That is a small increase. Yes, if you don't submit a DVD of the images it will be $150, but that is only happening cause people aren't submitting images to the league after the event. The league needs to promote itself and using images is one way, well if they don't promote themselves, you wouldn't have an event to shoot at. You're all wining over here about prices going upto $75 dollar, but you want everything for free. That is a real way to support the league,who is trying to keep the tournament play alive, ran by people who aren't even getting paid yet. People are working hard behind the scene on their own dime and you're wining about a $35 dollar increase, really? wow. No wonder this sport is crashing!!!

[TzeentchianGod]

None of that is reason to expect photographers to hand over their images for free.

[KGB-khrome]

Then maybe they should raise the media pass price to be $500 with no DVD submission. That way everyone makes money, the photographers and the league.

[Pakistani]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

Hey everyone, the price of the media pass is going upto $75 per person. That is a small increase. Yes, if you don't submit a DVD of the images it will be $150, but that is only happening cause people aren't submitting images to the league after the event. The league needs to promote itself and using images is one way, well if they don't promote themselves, you wouldn't have an event to shoot at. You're all wining over here about prices going upto $75 dollar, but you want everything for free. That is a real way to support the league,who is trying to keep the tournament play alive, ran by people who aren't even getting paid yet. People are working hard behind the scene on their own dime and you're wining about a $35 dollar increase, really? wow. No wonder this sport is crashing!!!

yea... its the photographers fault.

its been said multiple times in this thread, the issue for us(or atleast most of us) is the fact they want our pics for free. thats absurd. It belittles the effort we put into this. if you went to mcdonalds, how would you feel if you had to pay the cashier $10 to make HIM a burger?

take my (watermarked)pics OR charge me. not both.

[Little_PB_Newb]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

Then maybe they should raise the media pass price to be $500 with no DVD submission. That way everyone makes money, the photographers and the league.

LMFAO, you really think paintball photographers make $500 per event after expenses? You're talking out of your ***, buddy.

[TzeentchianGod]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

Hey everyone, the price of the media pass is going upto $75 per person. That is a small increase. Yes, if you don't submit a DVD of the images it will be $150, but that is only happening cause people aren't submitting images to the league after the event. The league needs to promote itself and using images is one way, well if they don't promote themselves, you wouldn't have an event to shoot at. You're all wining over here about prices going upto $75 dollar, but you want everything for free. That is a real way to support the league,who is trying to keep the tournament play alive, ran by people who aren't even getting paid yet. People are working hard behind the scene on their own dime and you're wining about a $35 dollar increase, really? wow. No wonder this sport is crashing!!!

what is this i don't even

[GeoffByrne]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

Hey everyone, the price of the media pass is going upto $75 per person. That is a small increase. Yes, if you don't submit a DVD of the images it will be $150, but that is only happening cause people aren't submitting images to the league after the event. The league needs to promote itself and using images is one way, well if they don't promote themselves, you wouldn't have an event to shoot at. You're all wining over here about prices going upto $75 dollar, but you want everything for free. That is a real way to support the league,who is trying to keep the tournament play alive, ran by people who aren't even getting paid yet. People are working hard behind the scene on their own dime and you're wining about a $35 dollar increase, really? wow. No wonder this sport is crashing!!!

You're joking right? Please tell me you are. How do you think other leagues in professional sports promote themselves. If you have media creds for any sport (NHL, NFL, NBA, MLB) you don't pay for it, you are given it. Why should us as photographers have to spend our money to promote the league? Isn't that what their marketing is for? Not to mention they want all our images FOR FREE to potentially generate sales, sales that the photographer would never see.
We take our time, spend our money coming out to the events, paying in the first place to shoot it, and promote the sport. I think it is retarded that we would then have to submit all of our images so that they could be used at whatever will the NPPL wants.

What's going to happen is the NPPL will lose a lot of the photographers they have now, which will decrease the promotional material that is floating around now. All the photographers will shoot other leagues. Then what will they do? Do they want to risk that possibility and find out?

[Mike Grenade]

Paintball seems to be the only sport in the world that thinks it's owed something from photographers. What it's going to find out is that this kind of approach is chasing off experienced photographers to it's own detriment. At best, paintball has nothing to offer serious photographers to begin with. It has a lot of nerve to ask for anything.

Next time you run into a PJ, ask them how often they pay for the privilege of giving their work away. They'll probably tell you something colorful that you wouldn't repeat in front of your kids. You want a photographer's images and hard work, you can pay for it. It's business. I don't care if your company is hemorrhaging money and desperately needs promotion, that doesn't change the way business works. Let's cut the ****ing bull**** here: I don't go to your place of work and demand that you pay me for your services, and to be grateful for the opportunity. The fact that anyone would argue that this is how it should work with photography anywhere, anytime is insulting on it's face. Let's be perfectly clear about this: It's not a misunderstanding, it's not a mistake, it's an insult.

I suspect there's an assumption that even if the accomplished photographers pack it in, "someone" will be along to fill the void. That "someone," if they exist, will be inexperienced by definition. No self-respecting photographer will agree to the conditions laid out here. On-field etiquette and the end product will suffer as a result. This won't improve with time, either. Once the newbies get better, they'll realize they shouldn't be working at a loss, they'll turn over, and you're back where you started.

[Pakistani]

Originally Posted by Mike Grenade

Paintball seems to be the only sport in the world that thinks it's owed something from photographers. What it's going to find out is that this kind of approach is chasing off experienced photographers to it's own detriment. At best, paintball has nothing to offer serious photographers to begin with. It has a lot of nerve to ask for anything.

Next time you run into a PJ, ask them how often they pay for the privilege of giving their work away. They'll probably tell you something colorful that you wouldn't repeat in front of your kids. You want a photographer's images and hard work, you can pay for it. It's business. I don't care if your company is hemorrhaging money and desperately needs promotion, that doesn't change the way business works. Let's cut the ****ing bull**** here: I don't go to your place of work and demand that you pay me for your services, and to be grateful for the opportunity. The fact that anyone would argue that this is how it should work with photography anywhere, anytime is insulting on it's face. Let's be perfectly clear about this: It's not a misunderstanding, it's not a mistake, it's an insult.

I suspect there's an assumption that even if the accomplished photographers pack it in, "someone" will be along to fill the void. That "someone," if they exist, will be inexperienced by definition. No self-respecting photographer will agree to the conditions laid out here. On-field etiquette and the end product will suffer as a result. This won't improve with time, either. Once the newbies get better, they'll realize they shouldn't be working at a loss, they'll turn over, and you're back where you started.

very well said, Mike.

[KGB-khrome]

If you read the policy, if you are shooting for mag and helping promote the sport through major media, you are taken care of, the policy is actually helping professional photographers

[IplayforRelentless]

That's still unfair to the people that don't choose to submit to magazines who won't pay photographers, though. It's an entirely ridiculous way for the NPPL to make money off of media, you're basically paying them to give them photos. If they need photos for marketing, then I don't see how it's unreasonable for them to pay us for OUR images.

[GeoffByrne]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

If you read the policy, if you are shooting for mag and helping promote the sport through major media, you are taken care of, the policy is actually helping professional photographers

I would assume you are an associate for Khrome. Let's put it this way. You go to NPPL, you pay your fees to run your booth, just as we would pay our fees to come photograph (which is still unacceptable but you aren't even getting this point yet, so that's a different story for a different time). Then, at the end of the event the coordinators of the NPPL come over to YOUR booth and say "Hey, it was nice having you here and all, and I know you paid your dues, but we are going to need one of everything you have and then a bit more so we can use it as promotional material. You know, give a way a gun or two next event to entice the crowd."


Where are your thoughts then? It's the same element. Giving up a part of your business to fund another. Keep in mind that your marker generates a sale once. Whereas photos from each of the photographers can be sold multiple times, generating mass profits.

[jarude]

I understand everyone wanting to get paid for there work. But I don't see anywhere that the NPPL asks for every single picture you take at the event.(and if they did are they going to physically come to your house and get the photos off your pc?) So if they want a DVD send them one with 20-50 pictures on it.

My team has hired photographers before and they took 100+ pictures of just our team and they were working for multipe teams. That to me would mean 500ish pictures per event. Sending 20-50 of your pictures to the league doesn't seem like a big issue. (as long as they credit the source of the photo that should be enough, free advertising.)

my .02

[shark6428]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

If you read the policy, if you are shooting for mag and helping promote the sport through major media, you are taken care of, the policy is actually helping professional photographers

Let's see... paintballphotography.com, APG, Facefull, PBX3, Pro Paintball, and Social Paintball. Even if they all send two photographers, that's a dozen people. That's not even close to enough cameras to cover the event to the extent that they're covered now.

There's no way any professional would even consider "submitting a DVD of images." I'm assuming that the NPPL would like to use it for promotions, advertising and things like that. Ask a pro how much he or she would charge to license a single photo for commercial purposes, your heart will skip a beat.

[IplayforRelentless]

Originally Posted by jarude

I understand everyone wanting to get paid for there work. But I don't see anywhere that the NPPL asks for every single picture you take at the event.(and if they did are they going to physically come to your house and get the photos off your pc?) So if they want a DVD send them one with 20-50 pictures on it.

My team has hired photographers before and they took 100+ pictures of just our team and they were working for multipe teams. That to me would mean 500ish pictures per event. Sending 20-50 of your pictures to the league doesn't seem like a big issue. (as long as they credit the source of the photo that should be enough, free advertising.)

my .02

I see your point and get it, but read below, especially the bolded part, if you could...

Originally Posted by shark6428

There's no way any professional would even consider "submitting a DVD of images." I'm assuming that the NPPL would like to use it for promotions, advertising and things like that. Ask a pro how much he or she would charge to license a single photo for commercial purposes, your heart will skip a beat.

If any of the NPPL staff members asked me for a photo because they want to set it as their desktop, then I'd have no problem with that. However, if it's being used for marketing purposes, then it's a different story and I should be compensated fairly for that. Even if it's just 20-50 images, I better be paid for them. Not to mention, I see this as a way for companies to get photos easily by dodging photographers. "Hey ________, cool photo of Dynasty, mind if I can have a copy to put on my site?" "Sure, no problem! Email sent!"

I encourage every photographer that's shooting any NPPL tournament to get their work copyrighted unless the league decides it wants to review and change their policy.

[Pakistani]

Since this will become an issue, you do not have to have prior copyright on your work in order to press charges for infringement. Us law declares any original work to automatically have a copyright on it as long as it was made public by the author.
You might have to officially file for the copyright to sue, but regardless your work has a copyright on it.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by GeoffByrne

You're joking right? Please tell me you are. How do you think other leagues in professional sports promote themselves. If you have media creds for any sport (NHL, NFL, NBA, MLB) you don't pay for it, you are given it.

I'm going to go ahead and say something I probably shouldn't. But it seems a reality check is warranted here.


How many of you photographers are shooting for Sports Illustrated, Fox Sports, ESPN, AP, Reuters, etc?

Or even APG or Faceful?


All of those major pro leagues ONLY issue free media passes to PRESS PHOTOGRAPHERS. If you are not shooting for a major media publication, you ARE NOT A PRESS PHOTOGRAPHER.

Let's replace NPPL in this situation with the NFL:

"Hi, I would like a media pass for the Packers game."
"Ok, which publication are you with?"
"I am from packerphotography.com. I take pictures and then sell them on my website."
...I'll let you guess what the NFL says at this point.


If you are not a press photographer, those leagues will not give you a pass at all. So, if you're REALLY suggesting that NPPL handles their media like major sports leagues do, you better get your press pass, or plan on staying home.


Here's the reality of the situation. The leagues get minimal to no value by having the vast majority of photographers there, unless they get copies of the pictures, or you're one of the handful of photographers who is taking the pictures that will end up in actual media (no, your photography website does not count.)


And dealing with photographers takes time and resources. The league would be foolish to spend their time and resources so that YOU can then sell photos. You want the league to put forth the resources for you to be there, then you pay the league. If you don't want to pay the league, then the league is better off not having you on the field at all.


Like anything in else in life, just because you want someone to pay you to do something doesn't mean someone wants to pay you to do it.


- Chris

[MutR.]

What the NPPL doesnt realize is that most of us shoot paintball for a loss already. We arent "Paintball Photographers" and we dont make a living off shooting paintball. Most of us are professional photographers in other genres, and we make our living there. Be it NFL, MLB, auto Sports, Portraiture, etc...

The point im trying to make is that NOWHERE in the photography industry does anyone expect free work, let alone making YOU pay THEM for work. I dont understand why the NPPL would think any different.

now if i was paying $150 to have a photographer booth set up with computers and internet access so i can do direct uploads strait from the event (which i do ANYWAY from my hotel room after the event...again at my expense), and maybe some bottled water, fruit, etc...Then i might find it worth the $150. Even with that, theres still no way in hell i would give up my images for free.

Not to mention the fact that any time one of us steps on the field we are risking thousands of dollars worth of equipment. Does your fee cover insurance for equipment? I bet not.

[superst0ck (Banned)]

Well, this just adds another reason to my list for why I hope the death of 7 man is soon. Or at least the way it is ran now.