[The Inflicted]

If they don't like things like the DSG or springfeed hurricanes being used, perhaps all these "serious" milsim types should start referring to their subcategory as "removable magfed."

[The Flounder]

Originally Posted by The Inflicted

If they don't like things like the DSG or springfeed hurricanes being used, perhaps all these "serious" milsim types should start referring to their subcategory as "removable magfed."

Then you are allowing the Cram and Jam back into the mix.

I think it is funny that from what I have seen is that mag-fed seems to be a subset of milsim. The CCM SR1 is pretty much considered milsim but not allowed in mag-fed because it is a single shot hand load.

[The Inflicted]

Originally Posted by The Flounder

Then you are allowing the Cram and Jam back into the mix.

No.

If it doesn't have a spring, it's not a magazine.

[The Flounder]

Originally Posted by The Inflicted

No.

If it doesn't have a spring, it's not a magazine.

A few questions for discussion.

Is the Crossman 3357 a mag fed marker? It uses a removable cylinder to reload.

Dukie's DRV uses a similar cylinder but has a a spring feed as well. Is that mag-fed?

A Gatling gun used a top mounted magazine that was gravity fed. Is the spring necessary to qualify as a magazine?

[Nahib_Stilgar]

I am loving the direction of this discussion!

I have been thinking about this lately as there have been more and more "Mag Fed / Milsim ONLY" games happening in my neck of the woods.

These games interest me as they really focus on the Limited Ammo aspect of the game! However I just can't buy into the "Mag Fed" definitions that are currently being used.


The idea of Mag Fed is fantastic! But it is a little more messy than people seem to think. The initial thought is the detatchable mag similar to an M-16... but then what about the Spring Feed in the the DSG? or the single load of the CCM SR1? or the cartridge of the DRV or Crossman 3375? No one can say these types of markers do not fit the "MILSIM" criteria!

What about Stock Class or Stickfed markers? (My personal favorite) Sure there is nothing removeable or even spring fed but the action of reloading a stick feed is similar enough to changing a mag and they certainly do not offer any sort of advantage in ROF.


So are we going to make the definition something broad to encompass everything or are we going to keep it narrow and exclude some of the less popular choices?

ex. MagFed is any marker that uses an internal or external reseviour powered by a Spring/Gravity/other that contains no more than 20rnds unless its a box mag?

or.

MagFed is any marker that uses a removeable reseviour powered by spring that contains no more than 20rnds...



My final question then becomes...Is there really a point to having a hard and fast MagFed definition? Or should people focus less on the marker and load out of the player and more on the actual point of the game trying to be played. Ie. Limited paint, scenario based, missions, objectives, team work...whatever...

[The Inflicted]

Originally Posted by The Flounder

A few questions for discussion.

Is the Crossman 3357 a mag fed marker? It uses a removable cylinder to reload.

From a technical standpoint, no.
No spring, no magazine.
When speaking of real steel firearms, the same cylinder/magazine definition is made.

Originally Posted by The Flounder

Dukie's DRV uses a similar cylinder but has a a spring feed as well. Is that mag-fed?

The lower feedtube has a spring, so yes, it would qualify. In this operation it's a magazine-fed gun where the cylinder is serving as a complicated elevator system to the breech.

Originally Posted by The Flounder

A Gatling gun used a top mounted magazine that was gravity fed. Is the spring necessary to qualify as a magazine?

No spring, no magazine.
If you look at technical descriptions of these types of Gatling guns, there are specific references to the gravity-powered chutes or feedtrays being "hoppers", not "magazines."

The same definition is applicable to paintball as well- from a gameplay point of view the major factor of a magazine is that the spring must be retracted (or removed altogether) to load anything into the feed mechanism, temporarily disabling the gun's ability to feed. With a hopper, the upper portion of projectiles (if not all of them) are gravity-fed, so additional projectiles can simply be added on top as the gun continues to cycle.

[The Flounder]

Originally Posted by The Inflicted

From a technical standpoint, no.

No spring, no magazine.
If you look at technical descriptions of these types of Gatling guns, there are specific references to the gravity-powered chutes or feedtrays being "hoppers", not "magazines."

Starting in 1871 Gatling guns came with a box magazine instead of the hopper. While some of these magazines did have a flat spring, the spring was to hold the cartridges in until it was attached to the gun not used for feeding the gun. No spring for feeding the rounds, still a magazine. Source

I still have not seen any official definition that says magazine is required to be removable or be spring loaded for it to function. Neither Wikipedia or Webster mention a spring as part of the mechanism. If you have seen something contrary to that please cite it here to share.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Originally Posted by The Inflicted

The same definition is applicable to paintball as well- from a gameplay point of view the major factor of a magazine is that the spring must be retracted (or removed altogether) to load anything into the feed mechanism, temporarily disabling the gun's ability to feed. With a hopper, the upper portion of projectiles (if not all of them) are gravity-fed, so additional projectiles can simply be added on top as the gun continues to cycle.

Ah ha! I think this might be close! It lets in a lot but still disallows quite a few things that might still really fit in with the milsim look and feel.

My stickfeed is out but springfed markers like my kp2 are still in. However markers that used a cyclone or rip clip are also out despite looking the part. (Sort of).

I think this definition is getting closer but it still needs some work.

I think attempting to define this genera will only end up limiting its spread by excluding so many options that many players would prefer to use in the exact same types of limited ammo, mission based games.

[The Flounder]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

.Is there really a point to having a hard and fast MagFed definition? Or should people focus less on the marker and load out of the player and more on the actual point of the game trying to be played. Ie. Limited paint, scenario based, missions, objectives, team work...whatever...

I think this is the major point here. Basically why do we want mag-fed? Is it for realism, limited paint, to exclude others, to level the playing field?

I think once we understand what we want mag-fed to be it will be easier to create a definition that is widely accepted and include a reason for that definition.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Originally Posted by The Flounder

I think this is the major point here. Basically why do we want mag-fed? Is it for realism, limited paint, to exclude others, to level the playing field?

I think once we understand what we want mag-fed to be it will be easier to create a definition that is widely accepted and include a reason for that definition.

I think the "Want" for magfed is primarily for the 'Fun', 'cool', 'Hardcore!' factors.

Fun for sure! Changing mags is awesome! And it sure looks 'cool' and make a player feel 'Hardcore' slapping in a new mag instead of dumping paint from a tube or a pod...

Limited Paint is a result of the end product, not a reason FOR the end product as there are many easier, simpler more efficient ways to achieve limited paint useage.

I have a hard time buying the 'realism' angle however...for the simple reason that paintballs themselves do not act the same as a bullet. Never have, and never will. Firearms are desgined to efficiently load bullets into the chamber and send them down range... Using a Mag to do this with paint is actually harder to do that with bullets...
Paintball tactics also dont equate well in the real world just as military tactics don't equate well in the paintball world. Ex. Rarely do you find a game where one side has 3+ to 1 odds advantage...


Strict definitions of anything, including magfed, is going to exclude a lot of potential players. Look at the 'pure' Stock class debate.

I find this to be an interesting paradox where in MagFed players want to grow their slice of the paintball game but continue to exclude willing participants with strict definitions of what is allowed to participate.

[John]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

I find this to be an interesting paradox where in MagFed players want to grow their slice of the paintball game but continue to exclude willing participants with strict definitions of what is allowed to participate.

Wow. I was trying to find a proper way to phrase that exact thought and you came along and nailed it. Well put.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Oh good!

I am glad that made sense to someone else! I have been scratching my head about this one for a while now wondering if I just have it wrong or something...

[Raibead]

wow some of these vintage markers are really cool. id like to get my hands on those!

[milsigcanada]

MAXTACT TGR2 MK2



The MAXTACT TGR2 MK2 is the latest generation 0.68 Cal. First Strike magazine fed paintball marker that is designed and constructed with Law Enforcement and Military training in mind. The TGR2 is built from light-weight CNC Machined T6 Aluminum Alloy and Nylon Fiber, it features fully ambidextrous controls (mag release, selector switch, charging handle) and sling mounts on both sides of the rifle. This marker was designed with comfortable ergonomics and the entire marker can be disaseembled in less than 2 minutes without the use of any tools, making it extremely easy to take apart for cleaning and maintainence. The marker also comes standard with Flip-Up Front and Rear Adjustable Sights, an Integrated CNC Machined Aluminum MIL-STD 1913 Quad Rail Interface System and standard Flat Top Rail for optics and various rail mounted accessories.

The lightweight polymer fiber magazines hold 18x 0.68 Cal. Paintballs, First Strike or 121 Rounds, while the marker itself features a transparent chamber window to instantly verify whether your empty as well as the type of projectile. In addition to this, the MAXTACT TGR2 will accept a large variety of magazines currently on the market including Scarab Arms, MILSIG (Round Head) and RAP4 Magazines. The Air-Instock houses a 13ci 3000psi HPA Air Tank which is enough air for roughly 160 shots per full tank, this feature also removes the need for an external remote line or air tank providing a more realistic and tactical feel, while the pistol grip can be interchanged with most Real Steel and Airsoft M4 GBB grips. The TGR2 MK2 comes standard with a 9" Smoothbore Free-Floating Aluminum Barrel that is threaded for optional mock suppressors and is interchangeable with any A5 threaded barrels.

Features

0.68 Cal. Open Bolt Semi-Auto Magazine Fed Paintball Marker
Fires 0.68 Cal Paintballs, First Strike Rounds and 121 Fin Stabilized Rounds
CNC Aluminum Upper and Nylon Polymer Lower Receiver
7" Aluminum RIS System with Mil-Spec Picatinny Rails
9" 0.68mm Smoothbore Free-Floating Barrel (A5 Threaded)
18 Round Standard Magazine and 12 Round Straight Magazine Included (First Strike Ready)
Air-In Stock System with 13ci 3000psi HPA Air Tank Included (~160 Shots/Full Tank)
Ergo Pistol Grip, Interchargeable with Real Steel M4/AR-15 or Airsoft M4 GBB Grips.
Ambidextrous Magazine Release, Selector Switch and Charging Handle
Flip-Up Front and Rear Adjustable Sights
Clear See-Through Chamber Window to see if you have ammo remaining.
Tooless Quick Disassembly for Easy Cleaning and Maintenance.
Compatible with Scarab Arms, MILSIG (Round Head) and RAP4 Magazines
Powered by HPA, Nitrogen or CO2


MAXTACT TGR1 *LIMITED EDITION*



The new TGR1 features a one-piece CNC machined upper receiver and rail interface system. This marker features the same high performance internals as the TGR2 MK2 but comes in a small package with a specialized barrel and flash hider unique to the TGR1. This marker also features a SCAR type rear stock which is foldable, extendable and also has an adjustable cheek rest. This is a Limited Edition model with only 100 units manufactured worldwide, each one is individually laser engraved with a unique serial number and comes in a Maxtact Hard Gun Case.

Features

0.68 Cal. Open Bolt Semi-Auto Magazine Fed Paintball Marker
Fires 0.68 Cal Paintballs, First Strike Rounds and 121 Fin Stabilized Rounds
One-Piece CNC Aluminum Upper Receiver (Uniquely Serial Numbered 1/100)
Black and Tan Polymer Lower Receiver Included
TGR1 Special Barrel and Sound Enhancing Flash Hider
SCAR Type Folding Adjustable Rear Stock with Adjustable Cheek Rest
CNC Machined Aluminum Air-Block with ASA for Remote Line attachment
18 Round Standard Magazine and 12 Round Straight Magazine Included (First Strike Ready)
Ergo Pistol Grip, Interchargeable with Real Steel M4/AR-15 or Airsoft M4 GBB Grips.
Ambidextrous Magazine Release, Selector Switch and Charging Handle
Flip-Up Front and Rear Adjustable Sights
Clear See-Through Chamber Window to see if you have ammo remaining.
Tooless Quick Disassembly for Easy Cleaning and Maintenance.
Compatible with Scarab Arms, MILSIG (Round Head) and RAP4 Magazines
Powered by HPA, Nitrogen or CO2

[PsiOps]

Originally Posted by John

Wow. I was trying to find a proper way to phrase that exact thought and you came along and nailed it. Well put.

I suspect the reason might be that the old guard of MagFed remembers very clearly when Paintball was trying to drive anything and everything MILSIM out of the paintball industry. I certainly remember having advertisements rejected by paintball magazines because they depicted players in camouflage.

That is not an endorsement of being exclusive of other playing styles. It is merely a possible reason for the behavior. Me personally, I just want all the people the paintball industry (as described above)drove into playing airsoft back, but I suspect I will have to be happy to merely stop the bleeding.

MagFed is not a replacement for other styles of paintball. It is merely a different one. It's not for everyone, nor should it be. Anyone who thinks it should be, should merely look at the unfolding disaster the paintball industry has been since 2004, to understand the consequences of trying to force players into a single style of play.

[Cole_jay_h]

I need to get into mag

[castle233]

I so want a RAP4 marker, soo bad. I think that with their 200 box hopper is perfect

[castle233]

I so want a RAP4 marker, soo bad. I think that with their 200 box hopper is perfect

[Fieldpeice]

Try their mkv mag fed it is a great starter makers or the price. I had one in the beginning when they first came out. It is bsicly a Bt4 has 98 internals and 98 barrel threads. The trigger grip frame can come separate from the maker unlike tippmann 98s. I replace the grip with a bt electronic grip frame that had full auto 3 shot burst and simi. Bought the box mag and was all set. Never broke paint but was fairly heavy. Everyone wanted to use it at least once but could not stand how heavy it was. I liked it tho and miss it sometimes

[Gio24Dude]

T15 RIFLE - Shipping to dealers first week of April.

The revolutionary T15 magazine fed paintball marker is the first of its kind offering a true .68 caliber 1 to 1 AR rifle platform. The T15 features a rugged lightweight aluminum body that will withstand the harshest conditions while maintaining optimum durability. Equipped to use our 19/20rd continuous feed magazines or a standard hopper, the T15 features an integrated 13ci/3000psi tank/stock combo.

SPECS

• 2 Piece Cast Aluminum Construction
• Aluminum Quad Rail Handguard
• 13ci/3000psi Tank/Stock Combo
• Low Profile Flip Up Sights
• 2 Pin Quick Dissemble
• Functional Charging Handle
• 19/20 Continuous Feed First Strike Magazines
• Magazine and Hopper Feed
• Includes Two Magazines
• Packaged in Durable Side Rifle Case

[miramire]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

My final question then becomes...Is there really a point to having a hard and fast MagFed definition? Or should people focus less on the marker and load out of the player and more on the actual point of the game trying to be played. Ie. Limited paint, scenario based, missions, objectives, team work...whatever...

I believe there is. Myself, I'm a supporter of the need for a hard and fast MagFed definition. When I talk to people about magfed/milsim, I tell them I'm very traditional in my understanding of this branch of paintball. I want the markers to look and function as close to real steel as possible. So no ASAs, no tac cap'd 50 round hopper wannabes, no rifles with a magazine in the stock, etc. Sorry Dye, Tippmann *, Tiberius* and the like. This is probably the most extreme you can take magfed but that is what I believe it is.

Now that doesn't mean I don't want any marker that doesn't fit in this definition on the field, or that I don't want to play with anyone that doesn't agree to it. It just means that I would prefer to play like this, and providing there are enough magfed groups that operate by similar codes, that shouldn't be a problem.

Perhaps the best way to go about this whole definition problem is to create a clear definition of the levels of magfed? Say level II is what I just described above; apart from firing paintballs, needing gas to operate the markers and not literally dying or getting seriously injured when hit. Level I could be having markers that function like their real steel counterparts but have certain visual elements that discern them from real steel such as ASA's, macrolines, remote lines, etc.