[Horizon]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

You say it mostly on MCB, because the old farts lap it up.





That's for starters, care to keep playing?

Sure, keep playing. That's from the "are new pumps even pumps anymore thread". Seems like I'm talking about high volume paintball vs. low volume play. I don't think I mention electors in there. But please enlighten me.

[Gyvanth]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Sure, keep playing. That's from the "are new pumps even pumps anymore thread". Seems like I'm talking about high volume paintball vs. low volume play. I don't think I mention electors in there. But please enlighten me.

You're ability to remain level headed over this is pretty impressive, big props to you. I actually hated your idea at first but after seeing that you legitimately believe in this and explained it in a mature way, I started to really think about it. I kinda like it.

To appease the non-rental crowd, have you considered adding discounts and incentives for self-equiped players to come and play with a pump? That way you still maintain the low-volume playing style that you desire for your field, but by selling paint at a discounted rate to pump players then you'd ease the sting non-rental players feel and encourage them to become regulars.

Edit: Also, you mentioned you pay pump. By offering incentives to pump players, not only would you encourage self equipped players to keep coming back, you'd help create interest in a sect of paintball (pump play) that you have a passion for.

Sorry for any typos or auto corrected words, I wrote this up on a tablet.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Originally Posted by Gyvanth

You're ability to remain level headed over this is pretty impressive, big props to you. I actually hated your idea at first but after seeing that you legitimately believe in this and explained it in a mature way, I started to really think about it. I kinda like it.

To appease the non-rental crowd, have you considered adding discounts and incentives for self-equiped players to come and play with a pump? That way you still maintain the low-volume playing style that you desire for your field, but by selling paint at a discounted rate to pump players then you'd ease the sting non-rental players feel and encourage them to become regulars.

Edit: Also, you mentioned you pay pump. By offering incentives to pump players, not only would you encourage self equipped players to keep coming back, you'd help create interest in a sect of paintball (pump play) that you have a passion for.

Sorry for any typos or auto corrected words, I wrote this up on a tablet.

Discount for pump players is not really needed. If you play pump you dont shoot very much.

For example, when I play stock class I may shoot 250 paintballs on a BIG day. Usually closer to 100-150... So the $40 bag of paint can be spread over two day or more...making my paint price for the day only $20 or less...

Gear owners pay for entry but not rental equipment. So a day of paintball for a pump player may end up being less than $50 easily. Not that hard to do.

If I am using an open class pump, I may shoot 250-500 so my day is a bit more expensive. But still not that bad.

Besides, once you start giving discounts to people who use one type of equipment you start excluding others with other equipment.

I also use a semi, but even when I do I still don't shoot much more than 250-500 paintballs in a day...



The gear is not the deciding factor, it is the guy pulling the trigger who determines how much paint is getting shot. That dicision will be impacted by a number of different things, one of them being the price of the paint.

I have seen guys with pumps shoot a case of paint in a day (Done that actually...pump pandemonium at EMR...That was nuts.) I have seen electro users shoot less than a bag in a day...

Expensive paint doesn't get wasted.


As for promoting pump, Low volume games do that naturally. There is a BIG pump following out in Victoria already.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Gyvanth

You're ability to remain level headed over this is pretty impressive, big props to you. I actually hated your idea at first but after seeing that you legitimately believe in this and explained it in a mature way, I started to really think about it. I kinda like it.

To appease the non-rental crowd, have you considered adding discounts and incentives for self-equiped players to come and play with a pump? That way you still maintain the low-volume playing style that you desire for your field, but by selling paint at a discounted rate to pump players then you'd ease the sting non-rental players feel and encourage them to become regulars.

Edit: Also, you mentioned you pay pump. By offering incentives to pump players, not only would you encourage self equipped players to keep coming back, you'd help create interest in a sect of paintball (pump play) that you have a passion for.

Sorry for any typos or auto corrected words, I wrote this up on a tablet.

Players choosing to play pump happens naturally here. We are possibly the field with the largest pump following in Canada. I don't know that for sure because there are no statistics available on that, but just from what I see when cruising forums and such. We have held West Cost Pump Weekend for the past 6 year and I'm sure it is the largest pump event in Canada. Tournament teams like recruiting from our field because we have a good reputation for producing decent snap shooters.

The incentive for players to pick up pumps is already there. Although I encourage low volume play, I try to keep preferences for marker technology to myself. It's not a good business move, in my opinion, to mock people for what they are using and try to tell them one marker is better than another. If an individual asks for my personal opinion, I will give it to them, just liek most people will. But that's on an individual basis and that person has to ask me for my opinion.

Edit - Haha, Nahib_Stilgar, we wrote almost the same thing simultaneously. Interesting.

[SNAKESNIPER (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Sure, keep playing. That's from the "are new pumps even pumps anymore thread". Seems like I'm talking about high volume paintball vs. low volume play. I don't think I mention electors in there. But please enlighten me.

Mincing words and splitting hairs to conceal your bias won't work with me. Obviously reading comprehension is lacking on your end.

Fine, here's a few more tidbits from your MCB posts that show your disdain for electro guns and speedball in general:

I don't have speedball fields at our facility, because I am annoyed by the whole atmosphere it seems to foster

As a field owner in the business of catering to one genre, that's the genre I'm going to market to and try to expand. Since some of the other genre are not just not compatible but are actually hurtful to the genre we cater to, from a business standpoint, I really don't care if those genres expand or not... if some of the other genres are actually hurtful to the genre I cater to, it's in my best interest to keep those genres away from my business.

"I don't pay for entry at my feild I go every weekend
I use 3 cases every time I go at $40 each case "

I wouldn't want to anywhere near that field and I wonder what percentage of the population would be willing to take part in that fling fest.

It's not tourney players specifically that are the problem for paintball. It's the technology that was created over the past 30 years that has changed the game and has made it more difficult for field owners to keep everyone happy.

Shall I go on?

[byarosh201]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

Mincing words and splitting hairs to conceal your bias won't work with me. Obviously reading comprehension is lacking on your end.

See I would've said this to him a while ago but I figured its hardly worth my time. His personal attacks on me were quite humorous as anyone I've played with always remembers me in a good way. Not some arguementive speed balling paint flinging douche like he painted me.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

Mincing words and splitting hairs to conceal your bias won't work with me. Obviously reading comprehension is lacking on your end.

Fine, here's a few more tidbits from your MCB posts that show your disdain for electro guns and speedball in general:









Shall I go on?

Ok, you've established that I have a personal bias towards lower volume play and lower technology. We all prefer some things over others.

You've also established that I don't cater to speedball at our field. I've been saying for years that the two don't mix very well and in general field owners will do better if they specialize in one or the other.

The last comment you quoted could be seen as a stab at electros, if that is what you are looking for (I still don't mention electors). But the technology that was created over the last 30 years has as much to do with manufacturing and economies of scale. It wouldn't matter what type of marker you have in your hands if manufacturing technology had not given you 1.5 -2 cent paintballs. The game, the atmosphere, would be completely different if we were still dealing with the availabilty of paintball similar to 30 years ago.

Since we're touching on tournament play, participation through the relatively short history of the sport kept increasing. But eventually it peaked. Paintball prices kept going down for a while though but participation decreased. although I don't think tournament play should be anything like I think recreatiaonl; play should be, as far as paint volume goes, there are some similarities between the two genres that can be seen, namely participation levels are affected by the intensity/extremity level of the activity. Even tournament play. Sure the hardest of the hardcore will take part even if the ROF were 50 bps and everyone were shooting 5 cases in a day. But it would also keep many players from going anywhere near a tournament field. And I believe that is what we have been seeing in the tournament paintball market in the past few years. We've hit the peak level at which participation is at it's maximum and gone past it. Even the major leagues realized that. That's why the leagues started putting stricter limits on ROF a few years ago. It was an attempt at limiting the intensity and attracting players back into the tournament scene. But it was really too little, too late. They didn't address the real problem which was the availability of ammo. Until they do that, tournament ball will continue floundering.

[SNAKESNIPER (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Ok, you've established that I have a personal bias towards lower volume play and lower technology. We all prefer some things over others.

FINALLY you admit it in plain english. You are personally biased against speedball players, guns and tactics. Was that so hard?

I think it's hilarious that you will say what you say on MCB but not here. When in Rome? Where's your conviction?

the technology that was created over the last 30 years has as much to do with manufacturing and economies of scale. It wouldn't matter what type of marker you have in your hands if manufacturing technology had not given you 1.5 -2 cent paintballs. The game, the atmosphere, would be completely different if we were still dealing with the availabilty of paintball similar to 30 years ago.

But we aren't. So quit whining about it. Technology changes. Some of us keep up and enjoy it, while others sit on cranky old man forums and ***** about it to anyone who'll listen to them.

Back on topic: Your commitment to limited ammo games notwithstanding, your retail paint prices are exorbitantly high and you are profiting from this whether you wish to admit it on here or not. I understand it's bad for business to admit you're gouging the hell out of noobs who don't know any better.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Once again...Technology is NOT the problem or the issue...

Cheap paint is.

The new technology out there is awesome. More efficient guns, lighter guns, cheaper guns...ALL GOOD things!

New technology can still be used in a nice, laid back, low rate of fire game.

Just because the gun CAN shoot 20bps does not mean the shooter MUST shoot 20bps.

So, How do you effectively limit the ROF and maintain a profitable business?

Keep in mind not EVERYONE wants a high rate of fire environment. Many players, new and old, do not enjoy high volume games.

[Soul06]

And on the reverse many players do.
There are always going to be those older folks that prefer the old ways and new players too timid for intense play. And there will always be those old players that welcome the change and new players looking for the thrill.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

Age really has nothing to do with it.

Neither does intensity. I have played some EXTREMEMLY intense games and shot only a handful of shots and only had a handful shot back at me.

There are plenty of places to play the high rate of fire game. Even in Victoria.

Finding the low rate of fire game at a cheap paint field is next to impossible.

[Soul06]

Age does play a part. There is most definitely a section of paintballers, older in age, that prefer the days of the automag, mech guns and early autocockers.

And by high intensity I mean high paint volume, if that makes it easier

[Nahib_Stilgar]

OK that makes sense. Nostalga does play a part.

But we have 14 year old kids out playing with guns older than them too.



High paint volume makes more sense then high intensity.

[reshafer]

Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

Age really has nothing to do with it.

Neither does intensity. I have played some EXTREMEMLY intense games and shot only a handful of shots and only had a handful shot back at me.

There are plenty of places to play the high rate of fire game. Even in Victoria.

Finding the low rate of fire game at a cheap paint field is next to impossible.

He never said anything to do with age, he was speaking in relation of how new someone is to the sport. I admit I have had many fun games where I barely went through a hopper but thats not the point either. The whole point of the thread is about fields with high paint prices, TNT falls into that category very heavily. I would rather spend my $40 - $60 bucks on a case and have the extra paint in case I need it, rather than $40 on a ****ing bag and want to play more but cant afford it. I mostly only play semi, so I really dont go through a lot of paint unless there is a lot of people playing. I dont care that horizon wants to limit paint by overcharging the **** out of his customers, the point of the matter is his paint prices are high. How hard is this to understand?

Dear god

[Nahib_Stilgar]

They are high, he even says they are high and give an explanation as to why they are high...

If that was all there was to the discussion then this would have been over inside on page...

The discussion has evolved to wether or not the price is worth it or not.

To some it is, to other its not.

However to tell the guy he is DEAD WRONG in all certainty, does not make sense either. He is filling a nich that his local area is supporting. He is certainly not forcing anyone to pay those prices. People pay them willingly because they percieve the value of atmosphere the style of play that his field provides them.

[reshafer]

:[quote]: They are high, he even says they are high and give an explanation as to why they are high...

If that was all there was to the discussion then this would have been over inside on page...

The discussion has evolved to wether or not the price is worth it or not.

To some it is, to other its not.

However to tell the guy he is DEAD WRONG in all certainty, does not make sense either. He is filling a nich that his local area is supporting. He is certainly not forcing anyone to pay those prices. People pay them willingly because they percieve the value of atmosphere the style of play that his field provides them. :[quote]:

Maybe, Horizon sits on his throne asking SNAKESNIPER for proof, which he has. I have yet to see proof that he actually gets the traffic he says he does.

The value of atmosphere is still kind of a meh reason at best for me. I love woodsball to death and would willingly play a good amount of money if the field was good enough, staff was good enough and whatnot but $160 is just too high. If it was $100 I might see it as viable but 160 is just

I just feel bad for his customers if they exist. If you can afford to have fun there more power to you I guess. Just seems stupid to me.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

OK...How does a business that charges that for a case of paint stay in business for 10 years if they are not getting the numbers they need to stay open?

I have played at Horizon's field once when I was passing through Victoria. It was great, plenty of players on that random weekend. Great staff, well run games...all that good stuff.

Value is relative...hell I think $4 for a coffee is a rip off...but plenty of people still go to Starbucks...

[reshafer]

Starbucks uses a high grade coffee than your normal store bought house brand though. Its like comparing white box paint to evil. but still comes no where near what he is charging. If he wanted to charge for the atmosphere, charge it on the entry price, thats what is meant to cover services rendered and entertainment and what not. If I played once a month at Tnt it would be the more than I would spend buying a shoebox compressor and 12 cases of decent paint to play at my own place.

[Nahib_Stilgar]

I personnally don't like Starbucks coffee. I think it tastes burnt. And the stuff I buy at home is Pretty darn good (Kicking Horse).

The Entry fee does not, cannot and never will cover the costs of running a paintball field. Any field. The costs involved are too high.

A field is made profitable via paint sales. There are two ways to do this.

Sell a lot for cheap

Sell a little for expensive...

The first field exists in abundance

The second doesn't, but that does not mean it is not a viable option.

[reshafer]

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

FINALLY you admit it in plain english. You are personally biased against speedball players, guns and tactics. Was that so hard?

You just figured out now that I personally prefer lower volume play and lower technology? I don't use semis, but I don't care if others use them. I don't care if people show up with whatever marker they want. My kid just bot himself an Ego which he shoots at our field. If I didn't want people to shoot electors I certainly wouldn't have let my kid get one. But he doesn't get free paint either, because otherwise I know he would start acting a little douche. He has to work for what he gets.

I'm not against speedball players at all. I just don't cater to speedball. I think it's not a great business to be in and definitely do not think it's a great business to mix in together with the type of recreational paintball we provide. McDonalds chooses not to serve steaks. Does that mean McDonalds retaurant owners don't like high end restaurants? Having had a neighbor that owned a couple of McDonalds restaurants, I can verify that is not the case .

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

But we aren't. So quit whining about it. Technology changes. Some of us keep up and enjoy it, while others sit on cranky old man forums and ***** about it to anyone who'll listen to them.

You are right. We are not and from a personal standpoint, that's fine. It gives us more variety, which we wouldn't have if all fields had no choice but to charge high prices. In all honesty, my business does better because there other fields that offer lower paint prices. If all fields offered the same, we would need to share just one type of customer. But since fields have different pricing structures, there are more players to go around for everyone and we are not all fighting for the same ones. That can't however be said in locations where all fields are offering just a low price/high volume experience. At least not to the same degree. And that's how this discussion started by someone (I think several someones) saying that paintball would get more participants if paint prices weren't so high (when referring to approx. $50/case paint). That's where I disagree. Overall, paintball will have more participants if there is more variety in pricing. Just like there are more restaurant patrons when there are restaurants serving food with a wider variety of pricing structures, rather than just one pricing structure for all restaurants.

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

Back on topic: Your commitment to limited ammo games notwithstanding, your retail paint prices are exorbitantly high and you are profiting from this whether you wish to admit it on here or not. I understand it's bad for business to admit you're gouging the hell out of noobs who don't know any better.

I assume that will remain your opinion. We are all entitled to one.