[Boom Master]

An avoidable tradegy for sure. The blame game is in full force. The GOP is making it a political issue. The GALL of a Republican Senator saying Europe is waiting for the US to lead the world in this incident. No they are not. It was their citizens. The rest is world and US politics.

Lets look to the past to see if we hear an echo of the political posturing and denials.

Remember when the USA shot down a civilian airliner? Whoops!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

U.S. government accounts

A missile departs the forward launcher of Vincennes during a 1987 exercise. The forward launcher was also used in the downing of Iran Air 655.
According to the U.S. government, the Vincennes mistakenly identified the Iranian airliner as an attacking military fighter. The officers misidentified the flight profile being flown by the Airbus A300B2 as being similar to that of an F-14A Tomcat during an attack run; however, the ship's own Aegis Combat System recorded the flight plan of the Iranian airliner as climbing (not descending as in an attack run) at the time of the incident.[16] The commercial flight had originated at Bandar Abbas, which served dual roles as a base for Iranian F-14 operations and as a hub for commercial, civilian flights.[22] According to the same reports, the Vincennes tried unsuccessfully to contact the approaching aircraft, seven times on the military emergency frequency and three times on the civilian emergency frequency, but never on air traffic control frequencies. This civilian aircraft was not equipped to pick up military frequencies and the messages on the civilian emergency channel could have been directed at any aircraft. More confusion arose as the hailed speed was the ground speed, while the pilot's instruments displayed airspeed, which was 50-knot (93 km/h) different.[23]

At 10:24 am, with the civilian jet 11 nautical miles (20 km) away, the Vincennes fired two SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles, both of which hit Flight 655. After the attack, the Vincennes' crew realized that the plane had been a civilian airliner.

This version was finalized in a report by Admiral William Fogarty, entitled Formal Investigation into the Circumstances Surrounding the Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 on 3 July 1988.[24] Only parts of this report have been released (part I in 1988 and part II in 1993). The Fogarty report stated, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information, corroborate the fact that [Iran Air Flight 655] was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile, in the assigned airway, squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot-down."

In other words, they screwed up BIG TIME....

Iranian government account

According to the Iranian government, the shooting down of IR 655 by the Vincennes was an intentionally performed and unlawful act. Even if there was a mistaken identification, which Iran has not accepted, it argues that this constituted gross negligence and recklessness amounting to an international crime, not an accident.[28](§4.52–4.54)

In particular, Iran expressed skepticism about claims of mis-identification, noting that the Vincennes had advanced Aegis radar that correctly tracked the flight and its Mode III beacon; two other U.S. warships in the area, Sides and Montgomery, identified the aircraft as civilian; and the flight was well within a recognized international air corridor. It also noted that the crew of the Vincennes was trained to handle simultaneous attacks by hundreds of enemy aircraft.[28](§4.50) Iran found it more plausible that the Vincennes "hankered for an opportunity to show its stuff".[28](§4.52)

According to Iran, the U.S. had previously issued a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) warning aircraft that they were at risk of "defensive measures" if they had not been cleared from a regional airport and if they came within 5 nautical miles (9.3 km) of a warship at an altitude of less than 2,000 feet (610 m)." IR 655 had been cleared from a regional airport and was well outside those limits when it was attacked.[28](§4.62)

Even if the aircraft had been an Iranian F-14, Iran argued, the U.S. would have had no right to shoot it down. The aircraft was flying within Iranian airspace and did not follow a path that could be considered an attack profile, nor did it illuminate the Vincennes with radar.[28](§4.60–4.61) During the incident, the Vincennes had also covertly entered Iranian territorial waters without first declaring war, while aiding Iraq's 1980–1988 war against Iran.[13][14] Regardless of any mistakes made by the crew, the U.S. was fully responsible for the actions of its warship under international law.[28](§4.56)

Iran pointed out that in the past "the United States has steadfastly condemned the shooting down of aircraft, whether civil or military, by the armed forces of another State" and cited El Al Flight 402, Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114 and Korean Air Lines Flight 007, among other incidents.[28](§4.66–4.70) Iran also noted that when Iraq attacked the USS Stark, United States found Iraq fully responsible on the grounds that the Iraqi pilot "knew or should have known" that he was attacking a U.S. warship.[28](§4.49)

Inside Iran, this shoot-down was perceived as a purposeful attack by United States, signalling that US was about to enter direct war against Iran on the side of Iraq.[29]

On 11 August 1988, a month after the shoot down, the Iranian government released a stamp illustrating the event, where the ship shooting the missile is painted with the colors of the American flag, and the map of Iran is burning on the background.

Aftermath[edit]

The United States government "expressed regret only for the loss of innocent life and did not make a specific apology to the Iranian government."[8]

Post-tour of duty medals[edit]

Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, received the Navy Commendation Medal.[22] In 1990, The Washington Post listed Lustig's awards as one being for his entire tour from 1984 to 1988 and the other for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats.[citation needed] In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[44]

I guess that means no one received any military discipline for their mistakes that resulted in downing a civilian aircraft.

Independent sources

An analysis of the events by the International Strategic Studies Association described the deployment of an Aegis cruiser in the zone as irresponsible and felt that the expense of the ship had played a major part in the setting of a low threshold for opening fire.[31] The Vincennes had been nicknamed 'Robocruiser' by crew members and other US Navy ships, both in reference to its Aegis system, and to the supposed aggressive tendencies of its captain.

The whole article is a worthy read. A post mortum of all the factors that combined that resulted in downing of a civilian aircraft.

In MH-17, I'm sure we will find a variety of circumstances as well once we sift through to politics and posturing. I predict there will be plenty of blame to go around.

A political statement worthy of note

George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."[26][27]

Yes, George Bush doesn't care what the facts are. Why he declared war on Iran and invaded a foreign nation by MISTAKE when he was told by ALL his intelligence officicals there was no evidence of weapons of mass distruction or Alkada presence in Iraq. He has the blood of thousands of American, Allied, and Iraqian civilians on his hands.

And we WONDER WHY there are hundred of thousands of people in the middle east that hate us.... Simply, we have earned that hatred.

End of political statement.

[Umami]

Speaking of earning hatred,

Originally Posted by Boom Master

Why he declared war on Iran

Iraq

Originally Posted by Boom Master

Alkada

Al-Qaeda, al-Qaida, or al-Qa'ida

Originally Posted by Boom Master

American, Allied, and Iraqian civilians

Iraqi

[ladd_17]

Obviously the answer is to ban surface-to-air missiles. That way, no more civilian airliners will be shot down.

[IgnoranceInABag]

we havnt declared war since 1941

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

An avoidable tradegy for sure. The blame game is in full force. The GOP is making it a political issue. The GALL of a Republican Senator saying Europe is waiting for the US to lead the world in this incident. No they are not. It was their citizens. The rest is world and US politics.

Lets look to the past to see if we hear an echo of the political posturing and denials.

Remember when the USA shot down a civilian airliner? Whoops!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655





In other words, they screwed up BIG TIME....







I guess that means no one received any military discipline for their mistakes that resulted in downing a civilian aircraft.



The whole article is a worthy read. A post mortum of all the factors that combined that resulted in downing of a civilian aircraft.

In MH-17, I'm sure we will find a variety of circumstances as well once we sift through to politics and posturing. I predict there will be plenty of blame to go around.

A political statement worthy of note



Yes, George Bush doesn't care what the facts are. Why he declared war on Iran and invaded a foreign nation by MISTAKE when he was told by ALL his intelligence officicals there was no evidence of weapons of mass distruction or Alkada presence in Iraq. He has the blood of thousands of American, Allied, and Iraqian civilians on his hands.

And we WONDER WHY there are hundred of thousands of people in the middle east that hate us.... Simply, we have earned that hatred.

End of political statement.

Did you ever stop and think the reasons given for invading Iraq were just bull**** to begin with and that Bush and Congress were simply following a well established strategy of foreign franchisement?

[PBOldTimer]

Originally Posted by ladd_17

Obviously the answer is to ban surface-to-air missiles. That way, no more civilian airliners will be shot down.

I would've thought the answer would be: to mandate users of surface-to-air missiles to take a class/test.

[Umami]

Originally Posted by PBOldTimer

I would've thought the answer would be: to mandate users of surface-to-air missiles to take a class/test.

But isn't this a classic case of poor training? Aircraft recognition is a huge part of any military training.

It is not inconceivable to think that had the spotters been better trained this accident wouldn't have occurred. It very much seems to have been unintentional.

[Fat Joe]

I think everyone should have to register their surface to air missiles and only have small capacity missile batteries. No one needs a 15 round surface to air missile weapon system.

[Umami]

Originally Posted by Fat Joe

I think everyone should have to register their surface to air missiles and only have small capacity missile batteries. No one needs a 15 round surface to air missile weapon system.

Yeah, you don't need to grab your dick and give everyone sarcastic bull****, we get that it's not effective for gun violence.

Better training probably would have helped here though.

[Boom Master]

Al-Qaeda, al-Qaida, or al-Qa'ida

Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up.

we havnt declared war since 1941

Semantics, Dare you to say that in front of a vet from Korea, Vietnaum, Iraq, Afganistan. Excuse my spelling. Still lazy.

I would've thought the answer would be: to mandate users of surface-to-air missiles to take a class/test.

They did. The military calls that training.... When it fails, they change the training and re train.

Aircraft recognition is a huge part of any military training.

These were stand off weapons. Using radar, software, transponders, to determine threat, friend, and foe. The US incident was just plain stupid if you read the article. No excuse, A command failure where the information was ignored and the commander chose to fire anyway. For example, the Aegesis system, I hope, can tell the difference between the radar signature of a fighter vs passenger jet. It was NOT decending in an attack pattern, it was climbing. Also lessons learned at a very costly price in lives...

About the Patriot Missile System. They got 'upgrades' in software and had to retrain to use it. One was a revision after a friendly fire incident where a missle battery shot down a French Fighter during the Iraq War. A series of errors but they upgraded the software to add another layer of protection to prevent mis identifying a potential threat.

Did you ever stop and think the reasons given for invading Iraq were just bull**** to begin with

Yes, I am always skeptical when I her politicians speak. especially when it is a Republican. It is a good practice to use your own head to make informed judgements.

Now SEVERAL DAYS later, CNN finally remembered to mention the simularities of the Ukraine and Iranian downing of civilian aircraft by the US Navy. A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. Now which party is beating the drum here for the blame game? The blonde put Cruz in is place on CNN today. Said he didn't know what he was talking about. Told him to get his facts straight by going to the FAA website. Twas wonderful.

[eforce]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

especially when it is a Republican.

I hate to break it to you, but scumbags occupy both sides of the aisle in alarming quantities.

I don't know what you hoped to accomplish with this thread. Yes, there's a striking resemblance. Yes, we all knew about it already. This isn't changing anything.

[Boom Master]

I hate to break it to you, but scumbags occupy both sides of the aisle in alarming quantities.

I thought I pretty much said that. According to the last election, America rejected the extremism of the Tea Party and the Conservatives.

My Congressman who said women's bodies have a way of taking care of unwanted pregnacys. We now have a female Senator.

The GOP candidates that say global warming is a myth.

Ted Cruz who was put in his place yesterday by being told on CNN to go to the FAA website and get some facts before opening his mouth.

Yep, the Democrats have their share of crazies too.... Why WE, the voters, need to do a better job choosing who we vote for.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

Yes, I am always skeptical when I her politicians speak. especially when it is a Republican. It is a good practice to use your own head to make informed judgements.

OK. Just wanted to make sure.

Now SEVERAL DAYS later, CNN finally remembered to mention the simularities of the Ukraine and Iranian downing of civilian aircraft by the US Navy. A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. Now which party is beating the drum here for the blame game? The blonde put Cruz in is place on CNN today. Said he didn't know what he was talking about. Told him to get his facts straight by going to the FAA website. Twas wonderful.

If this is directed to me, I have no comment. Actually I do have one. The blonde, is she hot? Because if I'm going to destroy what's left of my brain cells watching network news or opinion pieces I may as well get one or two off.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Boom Master

I thought I pretty much said that. According to the last election, America rejected the extremism of the Tea Party and the Conservatives.

My Congressman who said women's bodies have a way of taking care of unwanted pregnacys. We now have a female Senator.

The GOP candidates that say global warming is a myth.

Ted Cruz who was put in his place yesterday by being told on CNN to go to the FAA website and get some facts before opening his mouth.

Yep, the Democrats have their share of crazies too.... Why WE, the voters, need to do a better job choosing who we vote for.

I feel like you're just cramming as much into this thread as you can. Can we make an official "I hate the GOP and Tea Party" thread to contain butt rage? I'd also like a "I hate Democrats" thread to fulfill the same function.

[PBOldTimer]

Originally Posted by Umami

But isn't this a classic case of poor training? Aircraft recognition is a huge part of any military training.

It is not inconceivable to think that had the spotters been better trained this accident wouldn't have occurred. It very much seems to have been unintentional.

Originally Posted by Boom Master

They did. The military calls that training.... When it fails, they change the training and re train.

I think you both missed my sarcasm. I'll try to include "[/sarcasm]" next time.

[sarcasm]And by the way, Boom, are you admitting training and classes didn't stop something that was avoidable?[/sarcasm]

[Boom Master]

And by the way, Boom, are you admitting training and classes didn't stop something that was avoidable

Yes, I would. No class or training would prevent EVERY possible scenario. Nor would it apply to persons with emotional, psychological issues. Nor would it apply to drunks, and pharmaceutically enhanced individuals. Acts of Rage, etc.

But it very likely would work for SANE, RESPONSIBLE people...

[Volucris]

You're an untrained organic portal.

[slateman]

This incident and the USS Vincennes are quite different in how they played out. Still want to know why MH17 was flying in closed airspace

[Drex17]

Originally Posted by slateman

This incident and the USS Vincennes are quite different in how they played out. Still want to know why MH17 was flying in closed airspace

AFAIK it was not flying in closed airspace, only up to a certain altitude was closed.

[Boom Master]

You're an untrained organic portal.

Nothing like a good laugh with our morning coffee. I really think I should start logging all the creative names I have been called.

My wife wants to inform you that I have been potty trained for some time.

We come in to this world peeing and pooping whenever we want and many of us go out of this world peeing and pooping whenever we want.

Therefore, I reserve the my inalienable right to change at any time.

[slateman]

Originally Posted by Drex17

AFAIK it was not flying in closed airspace, only up to a certain altitude was closed.

You are correct. However, the ten previous flights had been directed south. It's like if you're out at 2:30 in the morning. No, it wasn't right you got mugged, but why were you in the wrong part of town at 0230?

Malaysian Airlines needs to re-evaluate their current SOPs and pilots' abilities.