The one thing that can make or break a milsim experience is the group of players. If everyone is out to have a good time, it will be a fun game. If there are bad apples out to ego-boost, the game can go bad quickly.
I'd love a good urban or urban/woods combo field. Most milsim I've seen is in the woods simply because it's the easiest, most convenient field type. A good urban field would have buildings with multiple floors, lots of windows and doors, and streets with obstacles like cars.
Also:
Tanks and transport vehicles
Player roles, such as commanders and medics
Missions and objectives
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Speedball and Woodsball... It's all paintball, and it's all fun.
"Originally posted by BurningPlaydoh: Speedball vs woodsball is a human distinction and the gear doesnt care where its being used."
Urban, definetly. Another woodsball field would just be white noise. A combination of CQB and long-distance engagements (for FS guys). AAlso, make sure there is some kind of objective to bring every in closer, such as a flag station or something. Otherwise, it just becomes a game of hide and seek.
This goes a LONG way to stoping spray and pray tactics, it reduces the amount of camping, promotes movement and makes the game a LOT more fun!
Urban environment that has buildings that are easy to get into and out of. Limit the number of places a person can get 'trapped' in or Camp in causing drawn out stand offs...
A field that you can do zone capture, or center flag push. Also Bomb games and other fun defend games like zombie.
Also the layout I hate is when it was designed from just looking at the back of the field forward. I find alot of milsig or outdoor fields are all focused on cover at the start, but mid field is really bad or near the enemy base. I would want to see something that when you are near the opposite end of the field you get really good cover, this promotes people making moves for those bunkers late game. For example, have the V formation walls with the point facing the team defending, still usable by the team moving up, but more cover for the attacking team.
This goes a LONG way to stoping spray and pray tactics, it reduces the amount of camping, promotes movement and makes the game a LOT more fun!
While I agree that this would make a paintball game more fun, it doesn't do well as military simulation. Fire superiority is a major advantage, and suppressive fire is key. Of course, there is a big difference between suppressive fire and spray-and-pray. Anyway, my point is that there is a place in milsim for large magazines and high rates of fire, as long as it's restricted within reason, such as a single automatic rifleman per squad or team.
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Speedball and Woodsball... It's all paintball, and it's all fun.
"Originally posted by BurningPlaydoh: Speedball vs woodsball is a human distinction and the gear doesnt care where its being used."
Basically all of the above. (He said, speaking from barely any experience...)
The biggest factor is going to be the people you're playing with. In a real-world combat environment, you're massively reliant on your squadmates. Your life is in their hands, you live and breathe with them, and you get to a point where their lives matter as much to you as your own does. Of course, very different in paintball where your lives aren't on the line, but a level of cameraderie is massively important where like whiteboy says, everyone is out to enjoy themselves.
Limited ammo is also a big one if you're going for an authentic experience. Four 160 round hoppers is easy enough for a paintballer to carry, but in the field you've the grand total of the equivalent of one pod. (6-8 20 round mags) Limited ammo makes you far more selective when it comes time to take a shot, rather than having a line of gunners just incessantly spraying balls. (That... sounds wrong!)
In terms of the venue, woods are king because they're easy. Roll in, play, roll out. There's a field in Toronto though that's absolutely drool-worthy called CQB. Think everyone around here would LOVE to have something like that close by...
While I agree that this would make a paintball game more fun, it doesn't do well as military simulation. Fire superiority is a major advantage, and suppressive fire is key. Of course, there is a big difference between suppressive fire and spray-and-pray. Anyway, my point is that there is a place in milsim for large magazines and high rates of fire, as long as it's restricted within reason, such as a single automatic rifleman per squad or team.
Actually I find it fits MILitary SIMulation perfectly.
An M-4/16/c7...AK47... Have 30 rnd mags. You can comfortably carry about ~10...
A squad/section may be made up of 8-10 players of which only two might be called heavy gunners. A platoon might have a heavy weapons Det. So you get another guy with a full auto gun and someone with a "mortar"...
So if you have a platoon of 30 or 40 players only 8 or so will have heavy guns. The rest are limited to 30rnd mags.
Limited ammo!
The best part about limited ammo is you don't have to limit the gun. Just the hopper size. People can use 90% of their own gear. So more players stay happy while keeping the spirit of the game alive.
I'm gonna have to agree when they say limit the ammount of ammo allowed. Yes fire superiority is needed. So the way around that is each team get's "X" amount of heavy gunners. That way you can still limit ammo but as well gain fire superiority.
Fire superiority comes from team work and superior numbers more than anything. As long as one or two people are pinning an opponent down then the others can move up to make the kill.
Two people taking turns can very easily cover each other with very little ammo. One well placed shot will pin an opponent better than 50 wild shots.
As I said, it just needs to be limited. An M16 rifleman's basic load is 210 rounds in 30-round mags. Each squad has an automatic weapon, typically an M249, for which the gunner carries 5 200-round mags. It is primarily a suppressive-fire weapon, meant to shoot a lot so the riflemen don't have to.
Then you have your grenadier and his M203 and... 36 grenades. Let's see some milsim on that one :p
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Speedball and Woodsball... It's all paintball, and it's all fun.
"Originally posted by BurningPlaydoh: Speedball vs woodsball is a human distinction and the gear doesnt care where its being used."
Last edited by 8WhiteBoy8 : 09-25-2013 at 10:32 AM.
Reason: typo
As I said, it just needs to be limited. An M16 rifleman's basic load is 410 rounds in 30-round mags. Each squad has an automatic weapon, typically an M249, for which the gunner carries 5 200-round mags. It is primarily a suppressive-fire weapon, meant to shoot a lot so the riflemen don't have to.
Then you have your grenadier and his M203 and... 36 grenades. Let's see some milsim on that one :p
I like it!
I wonder if there is an easy way to incorperate Grenadiers into the game without having to convince people to shell out loads of cash on a grenade launcher...
Maybe the event could supply a very specific colour of paint that a player must use in a single load style gun?
Ex. if the event paint is all Orange...then the grenade paint would be blue and must be fired from a seperate gun that does not have a hopper attached?or something like that?
I am thinking along the lines of strapping a small phantom (or similar marker) on your back with the feed tube removed so that you have to hand load the 'grenade' round before shooting it?
This is a layout I have so far but would like to refine it or change it for the purpose of four major things in order of importance.
1. Fun & fast games for birthday parties and people who have never played PB
2. Fun Mil-sim games or woodball games for experienced PB players
3. A field that even speedball players would like to play
4. A Mil-sim feel that AirSoft players could enjoy.
So some compromises and balancing needs to be done take a look tell me what, you as players think with the above criteria in mind.
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Been playing PB since late 1980s off and on.
You can add all the scenario gameplay modes, props and implement any field you want. But it's only as real as the gun you're using, period.
Gonna have to disagree with you on that. Weapons used are a very minor part of a military experience. Those "realistic" markers are so in looks only. Loading a new mag doesn't differ much from loading a new pod into a hopper, except in how it makes the player feel. And I say that if you want to feel as though you're firing a real weapon, it should weigh 8-10lb and have a bit of kick. And no reloading mags from a pod in the field, because no one carries loose ammo on a mission. Get a helmet and a 50lb pack, too. If you're trying to really simulate the experience...
Milsim is about how the game is played, not the things you use to play it.
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Speedball and Woodsball... It's all paintball, and it's all fun.
"Originally posted by BurningPlaydoh: Speedball vs woodsball is a human distinction and the gear doesnt care where its being used."
Gonna have to disagree with you on that. Weapons used are a very minor part of a military experience. Those "realistic" markers are so in looks only. Loading a new mag doesn't differ much from loading a new pod into a hopper, except in how it makes the player feel. And I say that if you want to feel as though you're firing a real weapon, it should weigh 8-10lb and have a bit of kick. And no reloading mags from a pod in the field, because no one carries loose ammo on a mission. Get a helmet and a 50lb pack, too. If you're trying to really simulate the experience...
Milsim is about how the game is played, not the things you use to play it.
Isn't the way something makes you feel the whole point of a "simulation" (ie milsim)?
I think you're a bit off the mark. I see where you're going with this but the simulation people want to replicate is the combat.
I would go as far as to say milsim starts with the gun, follows up with the equipment, then the course, and finally the game mode. Things like hoppers alters the playing style drastically. You go from a tactical cover and move, or trying to sneak in close making shots count, to your typical speedball fanboy who's got 1/2 a case of paint on him pinning you down until someone can flank you.
That goes to the next issue with pods. When you're using a mag-fed gun you have a limited number of mags and maybe a single pod. A pod that only gives you balls you have to reload into your mags. While the hopper guys have what, 4-6 pods minimum + the full hopper.
So 140x6 + 250 =1090 paintballs
As opposed to the mag-fed guy with lets say 7 mags, 250 paintballs. As far as the loose ammo thing goes that's just semantics. How can you try to defend using a hopper and pods but in the same breath condemn carrying "loose" ammo...
If you dont think having hoppers as opposed to mags is any different other than just the "feel", go out with a mag-fed gun against everyone else with ego's and such and see if you still feel the same.
I agree if you are trying to play hard core Military Simulation then Magfed is the way to go...but if you only want to experience the idea then it can be done simply by limiting the paint ON the gun its self.
By limiting the ammo, you stop the high ROF and get the same effect that a mag fed gun provides.
I like the idea of magfed but not the practicality of it.
I can take the same amount of paint and fire power of a mag fed gun and pack it into a MUCH smaller space
For example, 250 paintballs will fit into 25 10rnd tubes. these tubes take up less space and weigh much less than the mags.
A stick feed instead of a hopper reduces my profile to almost nothing, it never jams, feeds faster than I can shoot and is faster to reload than mags.
Even if I keep my Full sized gun (CCM S6) and a full tank, the combined wieght is still lower than most mag fed guns.
As a result I this make me more mobile, lighter on my feet and a smaller target.
Considering paintballs in generall are not a very realistic replica of real amunition...why not develop the most effective means of delivering them on target?
Mags however are the ONLY decent way to play with First strike.
I think you missed the point, blind eye. There was rhetoric in my last post that may have snuck by. Also, I've already spoken my mind on ammo limiting earlier in the thread. So, there is no need for me to address the "bringing a hopper to a mag-fed fight" discussion.
Basically, my view is that using a marker that looks real and loads realistically is a very, very small part of simulating combat. You can get a very realistic combat experience with "speedball gear." I'm not dissing anyone's preference, though. If slapping a mag makes you feel like a badass killer, that's fine with me. From my perspective, focusing on that small aspect means one probably doesn't have much, if any, real experience with weapons or combat. Simulating something you've never experienced is basically child's play, pretending. Again, that's fine by me. It's a game, after all.
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Speedball and Woodsball... It's all paintball, and it's all fun.
"Originally posted by BurningPlaydoh: Speedball vs woodsball is a human distinction and the gear doesnt care where its being used."
Last edited by 8WhiteBoy8 : 09-25-2013 at 12:08 PM.
I guess it's more the usage of the word milsim that is what I'm stuck on. I agree you can play scenario based games just fine with hopper equiped guns. Or play tactical woodsball in a full ghillie suit with a macdev clone, nothing wrong with that if that's what you're into.
It's like a guy showing up in his power ranger outfit with his bubble gum edition ego at a milsim event. It's just not what you would expect. No more than rambo in full fatigues and tactical gear with an M4 replica PB gun going to a speedball event.
The question was "What makes for a great MIL-SIM experience ??
To me having fun is the most important thing of course, as you say it is a game. Myself I have never had so much fun as playing in milsim events and it being mag-fed only. It really enhances the experience. That is just my opinion.
I would argue the oposite if someone asked me what enhanced a speedball experience. I certainly wouldn't advocate the use of a mag-fed gun and tactical gear that would blend with the environment.
Last edited by Blind Eye : 09-25-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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