[Buwaro]

I am looking into buying a lathe, I read the forum on milling machines, but I do not need to take that step just yet. To me the lathe is more important for the projects I am looking to build. I would like to be able to turn down aluminum/brass bar stock as large as 1 1/2" and up to 12" long. I was just wondering if this machine would be worth the money and would be large enough, or should I make the step up to something larger?

http://www.amazon.com/12-Mini-Metal-...ds=steel+lathe

I am just doing research now. A guy at work is teaching me how to run a lathe. I am a mechanic, so I have a basic understanding of all of this, but I have only recently learned machinist drawings, I never needed them before. Now that I understand them and how to create my own, I have been able to put some ideas I have had into a build able concept and would like to start researching now instead of waiting.

If you have any suggestions on something that may be better in the $500 price range, let me know. I would also look into the $1000 range if it were a multi use lathe/drill press or something like that.

[Bartman]

The only advice I can give you is, buy something a little bigger then what you think you need, or want.

About 10 years ago I bought a 9X19 lathe, and over the years I have wished I would have went a little further and got a bigger machine.

If you want to work on stuff up to 12" long a 12" lathe would be at its maximum size, I always like to have just a little bit of play space, never want to run it at the max.

Bart

[ironyusa]

Micromark has the best deal on mini lathes. Most "brands" you see stateside, including the one you linked are just imports of the Sieg industrial line with slight variances in the chuck, tailstock and indexing. Proxxon, Sherline and Taig are other options, but you get a lot more bang for your buck with the Chinese model.

This would be my suggestion: http://www.micromark.com/microlux-7x...athe,9615.html

Here is a quick comparison: http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/minilathe_compare.php

[nerve2030]

Originally Posted by Buwaro

I am looking into buying a lathe, I read the forum on milling machines, but I do not need to take that step just yet. To me the lathe is more important for the projects I am looking to build. I would like to be able to turn down aluminum/brass bar stock as large as 1 1/2" and up to 12" long. I was just wondering if this machine would be worth the money and would be large enough, or should I make the step up to something larger?

http://www.amazon.com/12-Mini-Metal-...ds=steel+lathe

I am just doing research now. A guy at work is teaching me how to run a lathe. I am a mechanic, so I have a basic understanding of all of this, but I have only recently learned machinist drawings, I never needed them before. Now that I understand them and how to create my own, I have been able to put some ideas I have had into a build able concept and would like to start researching now instead of waiting.

If you have any suggestions on something that may be better in the $500 price range, let me know. I would also look into the $1000 range if it were a multi use lathe/drill press or something like that.

So your looking to turn things 1-1/2" dia x 12" lg. That lathe will absolutely NOT do that. That 12" is measured from where the bed starts to the end. It does not take into account the chuck or tailstock. In actuality your not really going to be able to turn anything longer than about 6-8" in a lathe that size. Trust me I know from experience.

The question is what kind of work are you looking to do on this lathe? I assume that since you say your a mechanic you would be doing drive shaft and bushing type work. If thats the case your going to be working in some harder steels sometimes and even a 9x19 is going to be more frustrating than helpfull. I would suggest something like this http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1236.html at a MINIMUM that will get you an 18" long or so part pretty easily

As for combo lathes stay away. It sounds like a good idea but when you split a design like that you typically get less than you would if you had dedicated tools.

[2nwyka]

As people have said, get much bigger than you need. The smaller the lathe, the more vibrations, and that means less accuracy. Believe me, I tried to get things working on an OLD metal lathe, a 1958 W.W. Oliver Jeweler's lathe. It was 3x24, which was wasn't exactly logical for what I was doing, but I couldn't turn anything on that. It vibrated and shook so much that cuts ended up looking more like wood than metal.
I worked with an Enco 13x40 for a long time and that was absolutely glorious compared to my little jeweler's lathe. Smooth, precise cuts, auto feed in x/y, a Digital Read Out, a taper attachment, the list goes on and on. Sadly, that lathe new is $3000 and as a poor college student I don't have that...and that's not a top-of-the-line lathe like professional machinists use. That Matthew's lathe that nerve2030 linked to looks pretty nice to me, but I'm just an amateur. That WEDGE quickchange toolpost is excellent, however. I know that much.
Best of luck!
Noah

[nerve2030]

Those enco lathes from mainland china have marginal to poor finishes between the mating surfaces. I have a Birmingham 1340 lathe that is a step above that and Precision Mathews lathes are about the same but one day I would like to upgrade to something another step up (cleaner higher hp cuts) A Clausing 1340 would be my personal #1 choice but you cant really go wrong with a lathe from any these manufacturers.

http://www.cincinnatilathe.com/

http://www.hardingeus.com/?

http://www.leblondusa.com/

http://www.sharp-industries.com/lathes/1340.html

http://www.monarchlathe.com/products/lathes

http://www.clausing-industrial.com/index.asp

The one bad thing about the lathes above is your talking $10,000 min. The advantage of them though is the longevity of their design. It my day job we literally have LeBlonds that were manufactured in the 40's still running parts today. I am sure that when my Birmingham is 75+ years old its useful days will be long behind it, then again I only paid 3K for it slightly used and its paid for itself about 3 times over this year alone.

[Buwaro]

Thank you all for the great information. It does look like I may have to step up a couple hundred dollars to get something worth purchasing. I should have been more clear with my intentions here. I am not trying to go insane with this, however I do understand the importance of getting something worth having, I also do not want to throw $3000 at a lathe that I may not be able to make money on, and don't even know how to use yet.

Just as a side note, nerve2030, I am not that kind of mechanic, and this lathe is not for my work. I am an industrial Maintenance/Electrician, and the lathe is for my own projects and paintball parts. I am actually in the process of designing an ebolt ram and my own custom, non-blowback, valve. This lathe is going to be my way of hopefully producing enough ram's and valves to sell enough of them to pay for it self. That's honestly all I want.

[paintballer187]

If you don't have experience in programming and tool setup I would not jump into an endeavor like this. I made that mistake on this exact project. I designed and had parts made from a local shop and when i saw an industrial machine on craigslist I hopped on it. My intentions were grand but my inexperience got the best of me and I scrapped the whole machine for a $1k loss. I also had previous experience running a lathe but I was not versed in all aspects of the machine.

Point being, don't think you'll save money by making the parts yourself if you don't know how to run and code one of these machines. You'd be better off designing your parts, getting them made and worrying about testing/marketing the design before you worry about production.

[ironyusa]

^^ Great advice IMO. Prototyping is expensive no matter how you do it, but getting the final part machined in Taiwan usually gives you the best margin for quality precision machining. You then add the prototyping cost to the cost of the final product.

[nerve2030]

Originally Posted by Buwaro

snip/ I would like to be able to turn down aluminum/brass bar stock as large as 1 1/2" and up to 12" long. snip/

Originally Posted by Buwaro

Thank you all for the great information. It does look like I may have to step up a couple hundred dollars to get something worth purchasing. I should have been more clear with my intentions here. I am not trying to go insane with this, however I do understand the importance of getting something worth having, I also do not want to throw $3000 at a lathe that I may not be able to make money on, and don't even know how to use yet.

Just as a side note, nerve2030, I am not that kind of mechanic, and this lathe is not for my work. I am an industrial Maintenance/Electrician, and the lathe is for my own projects and paintball parts. I am actually in the process of designing an ebolt ram and my own custom, non-blowback, valve. This lathe is going to be my way of hopefully producing enough ram's and valves to sell enough of them to pay for it self. That's honestly all I want.

I still stand behind my larger lathe recommendation biased on your 1.5" dia 12" lg mention on your first post. If you want your and game to be light production though their are a couple things you pretty much must have so you should start thinking about adding them into the cost.

1. Quick change gear box - This is the best thing you can have on just about any lathe. It lets you change how fast you feed the tool into the part and when you switch it to threading you can single point threads without having to change gears inside the machine.

2. DRO - I used to run a smaller lathe with no dro and something like a spyder valve would take 2 hours to make and at the end of the day they were never EXACTLY the same. A dro will help you make more accurate parts MUCH MUCH faster. The same spyder type valve would take me ~ 10 min now.

3. QCTP - A quick change tool post along with a DRO lets you setup and zero all the tools you would need to make the part you plan on running. This keeps everything consistent and saves immense amounts of time.

If you have those 3 things you should be able to make parts with enough consistency and with enough speed to at least have an honest shot a making some money.

[nerve2030]

Originally Posted by ironyusa

^^ Great advice IMO. Prototyping is expensive no matter how you do it, but getting the final part machined in Taiwan usually gives you the best margin for quality precision machining. You then add the prototyping cost to the cost of the final product.

Most companies are starting to see the flaw in that logic. When you get something produced over seas you can't work as closely with the manufacturer so you run the risk of them sending you a boat load of scrap. You also run the risk of the design getting stolen. Also don't forget the rising cost of fuel that it takes those boats to go across the ocean. If you want an agile supply chain that can react to design or customer requirement changes quickly produce as local as you can. Your upfront costs may be a bit higher at first but over the life of the product you will save untold amounts of aggravation. Plus you gave a guy a job and you can say your product is made in the USA (a selling point for some people).

[inmylife2415]

Also consider, w/e you pay for a lathe you will also be paying in tooling. Depending on your tolerances things you don't consider at first will add up quickly.... Things like steady/follower rest, indicators, collets, tool holders, measurement the list goes on and on

[first out]

Originally Posted by nerve2030

Most companies are starting to see the flaw in that logic. When you get something produced over seas you can't work as closely with the manufacturer so you run the risk of them sending you a boat load of scrap. You also run the risk of the design getting stolen. Also don't forget the rising cost of fuel that it takes those boats to go across the ocean. If you want an agile supply chain that can react to design or customer requirement changes quickly produce as local as you can. Your upfront costs may be a bit higher at first but over the life of the product you will save untold amounts of aggravation. Plus you gave a guy a job and you can say your product is made in the USA (a selling point for some people).

I work in the mold making industry and this statement is very backed up by me. Many of the tools made in countries like china either don't produce a properly dimensioned part or break due to poor tool design. The molder ends up spending the initial savings in tool revisions/repairs and is delayed in part production.

Keep the money in the country, if you can at all afford to.

[Buwaro]

I really appreciate all of your advice. If I can get some more experience on a lathe I might still consider buying one, but obviously I am going to have to really commit to using it for more than just this project.

This is exactly why I am starting the research now, while I am still in the design phase of this. I believe I am going to be having some prototypes built at one of the local shops and then see what it would cost to have a run of the ones that work the best run off. If anything I will break even and be able to build my ebolt. The problem I have with the original ebolt rams and the 2 way rams, that some people still produce, is that they are still just that crappy spring return design with an extra hose going to it. No one has actually improved the design past turning it into a 2 way ram.

[first out]

If you are talking about e-bolts for a model 98 then you are correct to a point.
I have considered redesigning for a shorter unit, but then the use of qev's becomes more complicated. Due to their size you would be cutting out large sections of the body to make clearance room, and for most people they just want to be able to hack job room for the hoses and that's it. Remove the use of QEV's and things become much more practical for the drop-in item market.

With QEV's, Natural Newbie's classic general design (what I make) is the shortest simple install design you're going to get.

http://procarbine.homestead.com/files/982wayram.jpg

[Buwaro]

Originally Posted by first out

If you are talking about e-bolts for a model 98 then you are correct to a point.
I have considered redesigning for a shorter unit, but then the use of qev's becomes more complicated. Due to their size you would be cutting out large sections of the body to make clearance room, and for most people they just want to be able to hack job room for the hoses and that's it. Remove the use of QEV's and things become much more practical for the drop-in item market.

With QEV's, Natural Newbie's classic general design (what I make) is the shortest simple install design you're going to get.

http://procarbine.homestead.com/files/982wayram.jpg

I have been planning on ordering one from you, just to get me started on the build and then going from there. The plans I have are still years down the road. I am also working on a replacement valve without blowback instead of modifying the original, but I don't even know if it will work until I build a prototype. Once I get some drawings done up after I take some measurements I will send you the drawings and see what you think.

If I could find a way to put the QEV's in-line instead of attached to the ram it would work, but no one makes those, and that's kind of where I am stuck at right now. I would like to just have a better piston rod seal in the front, o-rings aren't properly designed for that type of seal. I was thinking of actually making the end cap unscrew and having a seal in the front that is set in with a set screw with a hole through the center, kind of like a smaller cocker valve retaining screw. I don't know yet. I was really interested in the lathe because I have multiple ideas on how to build it, and I will have to make a few different prototypes and mesh the best ideas together. Paying for each one individually would get expensive quickly.

I was also thinking of making an end cap similar to this. http://imgur.com/hQqO3Fl
It isn't perfect, but it is better than what is out there right now.

[first out]

That basically is the design of the end cap. The only difference being a precision machined washer retains the o-ring instead of a groove. It makes replacing the o-ring much easier.

I have considered using U rings instead for a smoother piston travel. There are very few paintball guns out there that utilize this type of seal though. I figured if a simple o-ring is good enough for high end markers it is good enough for a 98 ram, so I haven't put the time into experimenting.

In fact, the only U ring I have found was in the original spring return E-bolts on their piston.

[ironyusa]

Originally Posted by nerve2030

Most companies are starting to see the flaw in that logic. When you get something produced over seas you can't work as closely with the manufacturer so you run the risk of them sending you a boat load of scrap. You also run the risk of the design getting stolen. Also don't forget the rising cost of fuel that it takes those boats to go across the ocean. If you want an agile supply chain that can react to design or customer requirement changes quickly produce as local as you can. Your upfront costs may be a bit higher at first but over the life of the product you will save untold amounts of aggravation. Plus you gave a guy a job and you can say your product is made in the USA (a selling point for some people).

Say whatever you want, but what you're doing is fear-mongering and nothing more. You don't do due diligence on a potential vendor and bad things happen. The international market has a lot to offer and until something gives in the domestic market, low to mid production runs are best served elsewhere. I would love to have parts made stateside, but sourcing reputable shops with anything remotely resembling a decent price has been difficult.

[inmylife2415]

Originally Posted by ironyusa

Say whatever you want, but what you're doing is fear-mongering and nothing more. You don't do due diligence on a potential vendor and bad things happen. The international market has a lot to offer and until something gives in the domestic market, low to mid production runs are best served elsewhere. I would love to have parts made stateside, but sourcing reputable shops with anything remotely resembling a decent price has been difficult.

You get what you pay for man. If you need to hold tight tolerances and send the job over seas odds are when it comes back it will need to be fixed. I haven't been in the industry long but I've seen some crazy **** come from China.

[nerve2030]

Originally Posted by ironyusa

Say whatever you want, but what you're doing is fear-mongering and nothing more. You don't do due diligence on a potential vendor and bad things happen. The international market has a lot to offer and until something gives in the domestic market, low to mid production runs are best served elsewhere. I would love to have parts made stateside, but sourcing reputable shops with anything remotely resembling a decent price has been difficult.

Not at all I am just telling you what multi billion dollar companies have taken 20 years to figure out. If you want an agile supply chain it need to be physically short. I work for a company that does both we get castings made and machined in India and other components made 30 min down the street and a lot of repair work is done in house.

We have been working with the Indian manufacturer for 8 or so years and they have been getting better but its still a MAJOR issue when they send in something that needs reworked. Typically because if we had to send it back to them its 4 weeks shipping time then 2-3 weeks rework time then 4 more weeks return and if the customer needs that part 1 day is too long if we told them it would be 10-12 weeks late forget about it. Our customers measure 8 hours of down time as something like 1.5 million dollars. So we typically get it fixed locally with a expedite charge. Lucky that does not happen much but you can see how that all adds up.

When we work with the guy down the street if he messes up the parts I just throw them in the car and drive them over and while I drink a cup of coffee he fixes it up. Maybe an hour to correct the mistake.

FYI both of these vendors make different components to the same assembly so both are just as critical.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...s-it-all-hype/

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf..._companie.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1441587.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/singular...-u-s-industry/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stratfor...nomic-miracle/

[ironyusa]

Originally Posted by inmylife2415

You get what you pay for man. If you need to hold tight tolerances and send the job over seas odds are when it comes back it will need to be fixed. I haven't been in the industry long but I've seen some crazy **** come from China.

It's pretty typical for people to not segregate the quality of foreign suppliers. Within the Asian market each of the major players specialize in different areas. Japan specializes in electronics and semiconductors which are down to the micron level... Taiwan, who I specifically mentioned, specializes more in precision machining. China is larger production. Very seldom would I recommend China when tolerances are critical.

Originally Posted by nerve2030

Not at all I am just telling you what multi billion dollar companies have taken 20 years to figure out. If you want an agile supply chain it need to be physically short. I work for a company that does both we get castings made and machined in India and other components made 30 min down the street and a lot of repair work is done in house.

We have been working with the Indian manufacturer for 8 or so years and they have been getting better but its still a MAJOR issue when they send in something that needs reworked. Typically because if we had to send it back to them its 4 weeks shipping time then 2-3 weeks rework time then 4 more weeks return and if the customer needs that part 1 day is too long if we told them it would be 10-12 weeks late forget about it. Our customers measure 8 hours of down time as something like 1.5 million dollars. So we typically get it fixed locally with a expedite charge. Lucky that does not happen much but you can see how that all adds up.

When we work with the guy down the street if he messes up the parts I just throw them in the car and drive them over and while I drink a cup of coffee he fixes it up. Maybe an hour to correct the mistake.

FYI both of these vendors make different components to the same assembly so both are just as critical.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...s-it-all-hype/

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf..._companie.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1441587.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/singular...-u-s-industry/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stratfor...nomic-miracle/

Completely out of context, but it's cool man... You obviously have a vested interest in domestic manufacturing so I get it. Locally I haven't been able to source a shop rate under $65/hr with $85/hr being much more common. There is no way that is feasible for a start-up company to pay. People like you, Cliff and a couple others that actually care about the sport are doing a great thing by lowering the cost of manufacturing, but as a whole the story is much different. My last 2 jobs and my current one put me in charge of the make/ buy decisions so I am intimately familiar with the factors.