[SNAKESNIPER (Banned)]

Cue all the annoying Tech PB 13 year olds whining about "ergos".

[BurningPlaydoh]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

Cue all the annoying Tech PB 13 year olds whining about "ergos".

How to win an argument: call the other person a 13 year old

I would say that ergonomics could be THE single most important aspect in choosing a marker. With many guns performing almost identical (or close enough not to matter), what is comfortable and maneuverable is clearly the best choice.

What makes you better at shooting people, a gun that can shoot 30 pods without an air refill or one that you can aim and move well with?

[Zippin35]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

Cue all the annoying Tech PB 13 year olds whining about "ergos".

Sick contribution. To the point on the ergos, I will agree but I think you have to factor the feel of the shot into the overall feel of the gun. If you have a gun that feels like a dm12 in the hands but shoots like a brass eagle stingray, its not a good match. Obvious exaggeration there but you get what I am saying hopefully. The overall feel of the gun has to include its shot in my opinion but yes, ergos are very inportant.

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Even Jack Rice can't defy the laws of physics. It is no flatter. Sorry.

Notice the haters are most always the ones that want to quote "physics" - not those that own Aliens and have used them. Owners call and write weekly asking why other players don't get it

Interesting that you see no one hating on "First Strike" - which obviously goes decidedly farther - using the same principle. Difference is our smaller improvement comes at no addition cost on every shot - whereas the First Strike improvement is about 50 cents for every shot.

Truth is simple and understandable. Sweep adds a bit of backspin that makes the ball carry "a little farther". That bit of backspin works best with a slight overbore and also imparts a gyroscopic effect that holds the balls in a tighter horizontal line - giving the shot a oval pattern. Most shots are against the side of something - a bunker or wall, so a narrow shot helps. This can easily be seen on the videos we did on YouTube.

It can also be seen on a Alien gun that has several cases through it. The top of the barrel will have a line on the top of the barrel from the gelatin shell rolling against the top of the barrel. The air going under the ball lifts it. This is why - as I have come to understand it - an underbore tends to negate the effect.

[Zippin35]

^^Links to the videos please, Im interested.

[Jack Rice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N1ZeNA0uqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Kz2LNzgeI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N1ZeNA0uqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqeHJsDnDoU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZOAf7w-Uo0
The last one is a bit wierd - but you can see that even a qick setup shows the difference.

There is one other "test" on YouTube. He said for years that Sweep didn't work. I said interesting that he would say so with such confidence when he had never shot one. I sent him a loaner gun, no charge, with the agreement that he would shoot different paints and different barrels. He assured me he would do the "ultimate and conclusive test".
Instead he doesnt show the gun shooting - says he uses one bore and one paint - then states that he was right all along. I called him a couple of times asking him to actually do what he promised to do. Nope - happy being a hater. Don't know how he feels about the First Strike - but his vid was done before First Strike came out and it was easier then to say "All guns shoot the same"

[BurningPlaydoh]

Apex barrels impart backspin, do they have any tighter groupings?

First Strikes rotate on a different Axis and are not comparable.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Notice the haters are most always the ones that want to quote "physics" - not those that own Aliens and have used them. Owners call and write weekly asking why other players don't get it

Interesting that you see no one hating on "First Strike" - which obviously goes decidedly farther - using the same principle. Difference is our smaller improvement comes at no addition cost on every shot - whereas the First Strike improvement is about 50 cents for every shot.

Truth is simple and understandable. Sweep adds a bit of backspin that makes the ball carry "a little farther". That bit of backspin works best with a slight overbore and also imparts a gyroscopic effect that holds the balls in a tighter horizontal line - giving the shot a oval pattern. Most shots are against the side of something - a bunker or wall, so a narrow shot helps. This can easily be seen on the videos we did on YouTube.

It can also be seen on a Alien gun that has several cases through it. The top of the barrel will have a line on the top of the barrel from the gelatin shell rolling against the top of the barrel. The air going under the ball lifts it. This is why - as I have come to understand it - an underbore tends to negate the effect.

Jack, dude... First off, it's nonprofessional to challenge people in an open forum. Every company will have it's detractors and calling people out is a no-win proposition for you.

Second off, paintballs are not solid. The fill material ranges in viscosity, the exterior surface ranges in consistency, AND any rotational force you could (theoretically) apply to the ball from the bolt would be overcome by drag in the barrel (even if it is just rubbing on the top). None of that even consider porting which affects muzzle pressure, which more than likely has the biggest impact on ball deformation and flight characteristics. Garnering any statistical significance from the data would be almost impossible due to the amount of variables involved. You make the claim though, so the burden of proof lies on you. Prove that a paintball can be spun first; Tom Kaye's research proved quite the opposite. Lean an alien to the side and does the pattern change accordingly?

Lastly, I am not an alien hater... or at least I wasn't (see how point #1 works). I actually think they shoot decent and provide a better value than some of the big names, but not based on the artificial "sweep bolt" merits, but rather on the serviceability and ergonomic factors.

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Jack, dude... First off, it's nonprofessional to challenge people in an open forum. Every company will have it's detractors and calling people out is a no-win proposition for you.

Maybe - but where is the win in having statements go unchallenged.
Zippin35 asked " ^^Links to the videos please, I'm interested.
Maybe the win is there

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Second off, paintballs are not solid... yea, yea, yea... would be almost impossible due to, yea, yea, yea... Lean an alien to the side and yea, yea, yea...

Again just shoot one - better yet, put one in a vise and do the test exactly as you see it done on the videos - fairly and honestly - and you will get the same results. Why let others decide for you what does and does not happen.
As the saying goes the proof is in the pudding. I did the tests and videoed them - in real time. Then when challenged I did them again in more depth and put them on YouTube exactly as I did them. Having done that I know. Not theory, not hypothetical, I know.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Lastly, I am not an alien hater...

I agree. The real hater say the passive aggressive things like:

Honestly I love the invasion but throw it out. It shoots good its just... Finicky.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

I actually think they shoot decent and provide a better value than some of the big names, but not based on the artificial "sweep bolt" merits, but rather on the serviceability and ergonomic factors.

Still, stating - as fact - "artificial 'sweep bolt'" merits while saying I shouldn't "be allowed" to counter, that is isn't love. Quite the contrary. Think about the whole picture. There has been a lot of personal interest out there making claims against Alien guns, and many players have just believed. Many people do believe what they first hear, that is why rumors grow.
Those that had and have, the majority of the market don't want others to gain a foothold and have perpetuated the "it can't work"

Aliens don't shoot "decent". They shoot in the 60's for a very smooth shot. Correctly set up they rival most spools and exceed many, They are very efficient and extremely low maintenance guns.
Try one for more than a dozen shots I am confident that you will say the pattern is at least as good and, yes, confident that you will find the pattern to be superior.
Add that all up and it's not decent it's superior. Then measure to the price and it's extraordinary.

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by BurningPlaydoh

Apex barrels impart backspin, do they have any tighter groupings?
First Strikes rotate on a different Axis and are not comparable.

Alien operates on a different axis, backspin. Apex and First Strike operate on the "Exact" same principle and the "Exact" same axis. A rifled spin.
First Strike imparts more spin, however.
I have heard from some that the compound spin of Apex with an Aline gun works quite well. I have not tested the Apex.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Maybe - but where is the win in having statements go unchallenged.

Send me one to test and I'll provide an unbiased review. I don't have the equipment needed to provide anything other than anecdotal evidence though, which is not something I like claiming.

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Again just shoot one - better yet, put one in a vise and do the test exactly as you see it done on the videos - fairly and honestly - and you will get the same results. Why let others decide for you what does and does not happen.
As the saying goes the proof is in the pudding. I did the tests and videoed them - in real time. Then when challenged I did them again in more depth and put them on YouTube exactly as I did them. Having done that I know. Not theory, not hypothetical, I know.

The psychology term suggestibility comes to mind in this case... a placebo effect of sorts. I wouldn't suggest you're the scum that the Garners were, but SP made the same claim about the spiral porting in the All American barrels and there was never any conclusive evidence that it worked as advertised. Hammerhead barrels were the same story. I'm pretty sure armson tried it too.

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Still, stating - as fact - "artificial 'sweep bolt'" merits while saying I shouldn't "be allowed" to counter, that is isn't love. Quite the contrary. Think about the whole picture. There has been a lot of personal interest out there making claims against Alien guns, and many players have just believed. Many people do believe what they first hear, that is why rumors grow.
Those that had and have, the majority of the market don't want others to gain a foothold and have perpetuated the "it can't work"

Jack, as I already said. The preponderance of evidence disagrees with your claim, and all you have provided is anecdotal at best. PROVE to the community that your technology works and I'll bet you'll change the way many of us think AND sell more guns in the process. You want a win-win proposition...? That's it. I have no vested interest for or against you. My only interest is trying to help people that come across my posts and hope that they can make a more educated decision.

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Aliens don't shoot "decent". They shoot in the 60's for a very smooth shot. Correctly set up they rival most spools and exceed many, They are very efficient and extremely low maintenance guns.
Try one for more than a dozen shots I am confident that you will say the pattern is at least as good and, yes, confident that you will find the pattern to be superior.
Add that all up and it's not decent it's superior. Then measure to the price and it's extraordinary.

See, I wouldn't spend $500 on a pitch though... and that's all that is. How about take a more radical approach and send get some fields to lone out your markers for a few games. Sponsor some scenario teams (that's the biggest market) and make some money. OR invest the money you'd spend marketing and prove your theory.

[BurningPlaydoh]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Alien operates on a different axis, backspin. Apex and First Strike operate on the "Exact" same principle and the "Exact" same axis. A rifled spin.
First Strike imparts more spin, however.
I have heard from some that the compound spin of Apex with an Aline gun works quite well. I have not tested the Apex.

Apex is not a rifled spin. There is a ramp that produces backspin.

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

I wouldn't suggest you're the scum that the Garners were, but SP made the same claim about the spiral porting in the All American barrels.

Yes, that is part of the problem

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Jack, as I already said. The preponderance of evidence disagrees with your claim, and all you have provided is anecdotal at best. PROVE to the community that your technology works and I'll bet you'll change the way many of us think AND sell more guns in the process.

I did two videos. Look at them, if that doesn't do it for you then nothing I can do will convince you. Either the guns is doing what the videos show - or - I am deliberately making videos that are bogus - and any new proof will be along the same lines. As to the preponderance of the evidence - you need only look at First Strike - the proof is there. The only question is: Does the Sweep impart enough spin? Again, the videos show it does. The fact that the Gardners climes that porting could is - on it's face absurd.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

See, I wouldn't spend $500 on a pitch though...

Perhaps it's best thought of as a "no cost extra". There is no gun - at even close to the price (any bolt and valve) that has the combination of low maintenance, ease of setup, high efficiency, smooth shot and has a higher quality board and solenoid.
It's all aluminum - well some stainless and rubber grips , comes in a very nice case... and oh, by the way, almost everyone that owns one says it has a really great shot pattern, and even it you spend $1,00 or more, you will not get a performance advantage over Invasion.
That may well be a pitch, but it's also true.

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by BurningPlaydoh

Apex is not a rifled spin. There is a ramp that produces backspin.

My apologies, you wrote Apex - I was thinking Hammerhead.
It was Hammerhead that some have written to me saying that they like as a compound spin.
The Apex hits the ball as it leaves the barrel. To me, that is a pretty random approach, However it is pretty widely accepted that it has a curve.
I have never shot a Apex - have no opinion on it. Flatline also - never shot it, widely reported that it made the shot less reliable so nothing I wanted to try.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

I did two videos. Look at them, if that doesn't do it for you then nothing I can do will convince you. Either the guns is doing what the videos show - or - I am deliberately making videos that are bogus - and any new proof will be along the same lines. As to the preponderance of the evidence - you need only look at First Strike - the proof is there. The only question is: Does the Sweep impart enough spin? Again, the videos show it does. The fact that the Gardners climes that porting could is - on it's face absurd.

I may have missed it, but I didn't see a range test with velocity. The sweep takes up volume and restricts the air flow, so I am betting it adds ~15fps or so. A high speed camera may convince me when those videos didn't.

[tlmiller]

I've shot several Aliens. Never noticed one iota of a different shot trajectory from other markers.

They're a good value, but honestly, Jack's talking down to anyone who doesn't buy into his view of the paintball world makes me dislike the markers. Not that even if he didn't I'd buy one, since they're still poppets, and the Marq platform is to this day the only open bolt less than tri-tube poppet I've ever liked.

[lross]

All, I've got to weigh in here. I started off using a DP G4, quickly upgraded with a techt kit so I didn't run out of air in the middle of a game. I spent a ton of time on PB nation and tried to take in everything I could. Bought and sold some of the biggest names out there because they didn't make a measurable difference in my opinion, so I had no need for them. I did stumble upon Alien and thought its interesting. I bought my first Independence and then a second. I also bought an Invasion. I was just out last weekend and bottom line is the Independence and Invasion shoots further and straighter than any other marker I have shot. I was picking off folks that the guy next to me with a really nice Ego and the other guy with a really nice Luxe couldn't touch. I do not work for Alien, and all things created equal....everybody has personal preference and thats awesome. But, from somebody who is typically beyond skeptical-worry less about disproving something written or you find hard to believe and actually shoot one. If you still don't believe it, then don't buy one. Shoot whatever you like. But, ND's are more than competitive on shot performance, air efficiency and next to no maintenance. The Invasion is hard to beat at $499 with the smae performance. Just saying...

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by lross

I was just out last weekend and bottom line is the Independence and Invasion shoots further and straighter than any other marker I have shot.

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

I may have missed it, but I didn't see a range test with velocity. The sweep takes up volume and restricts the air flow, so I am betting it adds ~15fps or so. A high speed camera may convince me when those videos didn't.

Dude, you didn't care enough to "really" watch the videos we have done or you would have seen us chrono both bolts. You didn't care enough to either: think it through, or write it correctly, or you would have written that you would have expected the velocity to go down with restricted air - not up. Got to think another video would do as much good as hopping on one leg while rubbing my head and my stomach.

Originally Posted by tlmiller

Jack's talking down to anyone who doesn't buy into his view of the paintball world makes me dislike the markers. Not that even if he didn't I'd buy one, since they're still poppets

It's pretty hard to disagree with critics and still come off as warm and fuzzy. Don't say things forcefully enough and you easily miss the point. Say things with impact and it 's arrogant or taking down.
Do understand that usually I'm talking to others that may be following the post, as those that are writing back have usually made their decision and just want to "win the debate" - but not always.

Originally Posted by tlmiller

I've shot several Aliens. Never noticed one iota of a different shot trajectory from other markers.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

I was just out last weekend and bottom line is the Independence and Invasion shoots further and straighter than any other marker I have shot.

I hear a lot about the placebo effect - players only think the guns shoot better and farther.
IMO the opposite is true, what I have come to is that the tlmiller's grab one and shot it and expect it not to be better.
Videos show the difference is about 6 inches to each side at 150 feet. That is pretty hard to see in spray and pray mode, especially if you don't want to admit that some small company's $499 gun shoots better than your $1,000 gun.... Spray and Pray is OK, just give your prayer the best chance to be answered.
Best to do what IROSS did: at distance, pick guys off that other players - with supposedly better guns - can't. Not throwing paint while running around like some guy with his hair on fire. Cool, be cool, take your time and the subtle difference is discernible. It's not night and day. It is not the First Strike difference.
I once said it was twice as accurate because at 150 feet the pattern covered half the area. As I have said, some players reacted like I was drowning kittens. First Strike put on their website that they are 25 times more accurate, I don't see the outrage.
For every IROSS that is willing to post and take the hit - the face palm and ridicule - there are 10 or 20 that call and write me telling me they don't get it how players don't get it.
For every guy that calls or writes me there are ??? that just like shooting their gun and don't come on forums and would never think to call me.

Anyway - about said it all...again, so thanks for listening.

[BELOWZERO]

Axe, honestly with all the trading i have done the axe is still one of my top 5 guns. Ive owned everything for luxe 2.0s. csl's, geo3's, 2013 vcom, older vikings and cockers. You name it i have owned it or shot it.

The axe has really made me think about whether or not "highend" priced guns are worth it. I plan on just getting and I have considered just getting an axe with redline/lurker bolt and calling it done. It's good on air, KEE has excellent service, its smooth and just plain ball on ball. I had a drone and I just wasn't a fan of it. The invasion that i had was pretty nice but it just felt cheap in the hands and the quality just wasnt there for me.

Axe>Invasion>Drone

IMO but its your $$$ do what you want with it, your best bet is to shoot all 3. No same two people will like the same gun.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Dude, you didn't care enough to "really" watch the videos we have done or you would have seen us chrono both bolts. You didn't care enough to either: think it through, or write it correctly, or you would have written that you would have expected the velocity to go down with restricted air - not up. Got to think another video would do as much good as hopping on one leg while rubbing my head and my stomach.

Are you like this in person? Lol, I watched the videos on my tablet while keeping an eye on two little boys running around the house. Your video with 10shots each doesn't chrono every switch. Fact. There is no way for us to gauge environmental factors such as wind. Fact. The "tests" conducted where pseudoscience at best. I watched all of the videos and it proved nothing. Obviously you lack a basic understanding of marker technology. Reducing chamber volume (provided dwell and pressure remains constant) will result in a higher velocity... given, there is a crossover point. Your sweep bolt partially restricts that air path and reduces the chamber volume. Throwing out red herrings and mocking people also proves that some business etiquette is lacking on your behalf. You're building a case more against your company than you are FOR your technological breakthrough.

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

It's pretty hard to disagree with critics and still come off as warm and fuzzy. Don't say things forcefully enough and you easily miss the point. Say things with impact and it 's arrogant or taking down.
Do understand that usually I'm talking to others that may be following the post, as those that are writing back have usually made their decision and just want to "win the debate" - but not always.

Forceful only works if you have something quantifiable to fall back on or general consensus is in your favor... at this point you have neither. Saying things with conviction is much different than coming across as derogatory.

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

I hear a lot about the placebo effect - players only think the guns shoot better and farther.
IMO the opposite is true, what I have come to is that the tlmiller's grab one and shot it and expect it not to be better.
Videos show the difference is about 6 inches to each side at 150 feet. That is pretty hard to see in spray and pray mode, especially if you don't want to admit that some small company's $499 gun shoots better than your $1,000 gun.... Spray and Pray is OK, just give your prayer the best chance to be answered.
Best to do what IROSS did: at distance, pick guys off that other players - with supposedly better guns - can't. Not throwing paint while running around like some guy with his hair on fire. Cool, be cool, take your time and the subtle difference is discernible. It's not night and day. It is not the First Strike difference.

Now you're belittling tlmiller with no background? The guy has owned almost every gun out there and is about as unbiased as they come (except he prefers spools). He and I have disagreed numerous times, but it has NEVER digressed to petty name calling and subdued stabs at each other. Most of his "$1000 guns," like mine, were purchased used. To take the point further, YOUR GUN IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE IN THIS COMPARISON. The axe is $459 retail, the Drone DX is $429 and yours weighs in at $499. Cheaper guns are being recommended over yours... I find the axe's decreasing pressure poppet system, with a lurker bolt to be a much more elegant than a stacked tube poppet.

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

I once said it was twice as accurate because at 150 feet the pattern covered half the area. As I have said, some players reacted like I was drowning kittens. First Strike put on their website that they are 25 times more accurate, I don't see the outrage.
For every IROSS that is willing to post and take the hit - the face palm and ridicule - there are 10 or 20 that call and write me telling me they don't get it how players don't get it.
For every guy that calls or writes me there are ??? that just like shooting their gun and don't come on forums and would never think to call me.

Anyway - about said it all...again, so thanks for listening.

First strike paintballs work entirely different than backspin, so stop referencing them. It has nothing to do with anything. First strike balls change the entire flight characteristics of the projectile itself. It's the equivalent of comparing a musket to a rifle. They're totally different. The fins make the biggest difference.

I am really done with this conversation though, so I'll let you post last and "win" if it makes you feel better. I think what most people will see what Tom Kaye said about the Garners is true of Jack Rice:

You made a mistake coming here to the internet paintball community. These people will not be put off, will not accept partial answers and will hold you accountable for everything you say. They are not your typical customer. Even through all the bickering and flaming, the collective consciousness of this community sits at nothing less than the genius level. They are the highest and best of what paintball has to offer. I have trusted and turned to them for years and they have allowed me to walk among them for which I am grateful.

You take a retaliatory stance when I just wanted more proof... was I really a hater?