[pykim01]

Originally Posted by steve_81

A better question would be to figure out how/when Paintball started changing from an adult oriented game into one that is saturated with kids. To see if anything can be done to change the marketing and demographic around.

paintball started to change as it grew and there majority adults playing greey manufacturers started to aim towards kids to widen their cash flow. well sucks but after all the kids started playing adults started to stop and now people think it's a childish game.

as for the comment about the tournaments. i think paintball in general needs to be more organized. how many d5 d4 d3 d2 d1 ncpa psp nppl and xxxxx million different divisions are there? ncpa doesnt feed to nppl or psp there isnt a lot of organization. at least for other sports we KNOW that my alma mater SU ORANGE has kids that played in HS levels and did well and we KNOW that people playing for the giants played some college and did well.
WE NEED ORGANIZEED FEEDER PROGRAMS not random kids getting picked up by pro teams.

if we can do this than im sure that the HIGHER level teams shouldn't pay for paint and entry. they should be spectated and profits should be made that way. Pros already get free paint but the other levels as well. If the NCPA could provide free paint im sure we'd have a LOT more college teams out there playing making the sport better known to the age demographic we need it to.

[Ginga G]

I dont think its as much as children invaded the sport and adults started to hate it as it is the sport becoming cheaper and more accecisble. If you wanted a marker that shot 20 bps or whatever little agglets want, you would need to pay close to what a high end gun would cost now. But now paint is 40-60 a case, mid/low range guns that perform with the high ends have been made for 250-600 dollars, and there is just simply a way for everyone to get into this sport now.
Whether you wanna spend 250+ dollars a time laying down cases of paint a day on the speedball field or you wanna be a sneaky ninja and spend 20-30 a day playing pump, theres something for everyone in every price range now.

as for pro paintball dying, I think it just lost its excitment, atleast it did to me. I was stoked on the airball for a while but now id honestly prefer larger scenario games if there were any near me.

[Pump Scout]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

The games are currently too large. They'll have to be shrunk down even further. Not field size, that needs to go up for television (can't have people getting hit off the break, that's action but it's over too quickly), but team size. The last televised tournament I saw that was remotely easy to follow was that 3 on 3 indoor that was on a few years back (I think Smartparts was the big sponsor). Fewer players, needs fewer cameras, and needs less play by play. Plus you can make the game more about the individual players than some faceless team. Hype the interpersonal conflicts a bit (think professional boxing or MMA, or even WWE if you want to go crazy). With the right field design, something that really stretches the game while allowing a ton of movement, you could possibly go down to 2 on 2. Probably have to do a best of 7 game with that few though.

UAPL 3-man. Those games were fun to watch... brutal to play, from what I've heard, but a ton of fun to watch. They did exactly what you said, built on the MMA style interactions, teams coming into the arena through clouds of smoke, Matty Marshall calling the games. It's a shame it didn't go further than it did, but being on TV at 1AM may have had something to do with that.

[Facker10]

UAPL was fun to watch. I remember i was at college turned on the tv and was like wait what is this? then immediately regretting leaving my team and watching them play against dynasty lol.

[TheGrimReeper]

maybe the spectators would be more excited if each pro team had a unique "fatality" move they pull after winning if the head reff gives a thumbs up

[jmanley]

I recently got into paintballing in June. Haven't been around long enough to know how popular or unpopular the sport is. I am sure it would be nice to have a bit more notariety, however, the sport would lose something if it were to be subjected to commercialization. Personally I will continue to play and promote the sport as it has brought me and my son a bit closer together, not to mention it's fun and the people I have met so far have promoted the sport well.

[pykim01]

Originally Posted by jmanley

I recently got into paintballing in June. Haven't been around long enough to know how popular or unpopular the sport is. I am sure it would be nice to have a bit more notariety, however, the sport would lose something if it were to be subjected to commercialization. Personally I will continue to play and promote the sport as it has brought me and my son a bit closer together, not to mention it's fun and the people I have met so far have promoted the sport well.

well sir i wanna start by saying how awesome it is that you're paintballing with your son.

more on topic: i think that there isn't enough room for advertising on tv. that is how most sports make their money. this is exactly why ice hockey died/is dying and lacrosse never made it. and why baseball and football are in it big!

[bobsbarricades]

nothing to contribute but this thread is good reads.

wait, contribution: I think commentary has come a long way. That's a big one IMO. The PSP streams that Marshall does with guest commenters is top notch and I hope he's picked up for whatever this vegas ppv thing is.

[BeGe]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

I think one of the issues is the way paintball tournaments are setup to make money. Right now the tournament is the product and the competitors are the customers. This is of course backwards of many other legit sports, where the competitors are the product and the spectators are the customers.

We've been "by the players, for the players" for so long, I wonder if a change to "by the experts, for the spectators" might be just what we need to improve things. Imagine showing up for a tournament, which you don't have to pay to enter, where you can shoot paint provided to you by sponsors or even the event, to try and win prize money taken from the entrance fees of all the spectators who came to watch you play. Of course if you don't like the bunkers they use, which were picked because they give the audience the best view instead of providing the best cover, well too bad. If you don't like the dress code they enforce, because it makes the hits much, much easier to see for the audience, well too bad. If you don't like the very, very harsh punishments they have for things like wiping, because the audience doesn't think it's "part of the game", then too bad.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS SOOOO MUCH. I was wondering if I was the only one in the paintball world that realized this.

Paintball will never be truly popular until it is a SPECTATOR SPORT. Right now the most money making thing about an event is paint. If the most lucrative part of a football game was making footballs then that sport would slowly die as well no matter how lucrative footballs were. But in fact the most lucrative part of football is the spectators that love it...so it makes billions.

People need to please stop arguing about which rules and field layouts are going to make it a spectator sport and focus on actually advertising events to spectators. As long as the field is small enough for bleachers to see the action then the only thing it needs is tons of advertising. One of the most popular (and lucrative) spectator sports in the world is Nascar. Let me repeat that....Nascar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on it, I'm just pointing out that in the idea of what one would guess is "spectator friendly" watching cars go around in a circle 500 times over the course of 4 hours be at the absolute bottom of the list. But promoters advertised it to spectators and made the event atmosphere an giant party that just went on as long as the cars were still moving forward. That led to the human nature of picking a side (or a car) and rooting for it and having those wonderfully addictive emotional highs and lows of winning or losing along with your chosen favorite team (...or car) which then led to fathers bringing their children and friends bringing friends to the game (or tournament) and a whole cycle of sporting love and wonderful marketability. Advertising made it happen.

I've never once seen a spectator based advertisement for a pro paintball event. Never. (I'm not saying they don't exist, but if I've never seen one then obviously they aren't promoted quite enough). Making an event popular for spectating isn't that hard. Advertise the heck out of it all over the state where it's going on...advertise $1 beers (at cost, so you're not losing money) and 50 cent hot dogs (again at cost, or even 25 cent ones if you can get away with it). Make brochures with outlines of the rules and the teams so that the drunks can cheer like hell for their randomly chosen team all day long and have a blast. Who wouldn't go to an event like that, paintball junkie or not? Advertise it well enough and repeat it for a couple years and you'll end up with a pretty good spectator base and a sport that can support it's player's existence rather than just players supporting the sport's existence.

[NightKreeper]

Originally Posted by Pump Scout

UAPL 3-man. Those games were fun to watch... brutal to play, from what I've heard, but a ton of fun to watch. They did exactly what you said, built on the MMA style interactions, teams coming into the arena through clouds of smoke, Matty Marshall calling the games. It's a shame it didn't go further than it did, but being on TV at 1AM may have had something to do with that.

I loved UAPL, i watched it every week. it was easier for viewers to follow, they could actually see who was shooting at who

[bobsbarricades]

Trying to get my friends that used to play tournies with me to watch some of the games on youtube can be hard. It's always the same, "fun to play; boring to watch" and these guys used to be awesome players! For me it's more a learning experience and rarely one of true excitement. So I would agree that there needs to be some serious thought about to make it exciting for the spectators.

I mean look at baseball - I'd rather stab myself in the foot (I'm not exaggerating) than go to a baseball game alone. THe only reason SPORTS matches is fun for A LOT of people is the interaction with other people. THe beer, the hotdogs; the EXPERIENCE of being there.

[BMcC13]

Hosting major paintball events at Disney and football stadiums was unique...and something that should have never been done.

Think about it. Baseball games are always held at baseball fields. Car races are always on a track. Skateboard competitions are held at skateboard parks. Are you seeing a pattern yet?

Nobody is buying out Gillete Stadium's parking lot and filling it with snow for the winter X-Games. There's no reason to dump outrageous amounts of money into a venue, when there are perfectly good paintball parks all over the world. If the PSP and NPPL didn't waste money on venues, then more cash could have been put into things that matter, like promoting events, getting sponsors, and waiving fees so professional and semi-pro teams could actually pay their players.

[BeGe]

Originally Posted by bobsbarricades

I mean look at baseball - I'd rather stab myself in the foot (I'm not exaggerating) than go to a baseball game alone. THe only reason SPORTS matches is fun for A LOT of people is the interaction with other people. THe beer, the hotdogs; the EXPERIENCE of being there.

Exactly, any sport is boring as hang if you don't understand it or have an emotional investment in it, and any sport is fun if you both understand the nuances and have that emotional investment. By advertising an atmosphere of cheap beer and food and some sort of entertainment while you wolf down both you create fans over time. The formats and rules can be tweaked of course...but spending so much effort on arguing over formats when we don't even advertise the events to spectators is like spending all your time trying to get a clean car by polishing your muffler when the rest of your car is still covered with mud.

Originally Posted by BMcC13

There's no reason to dump outrageous amounts of money into a venue, when there are perfectly good paintball parks all over the world. If the PSP and NPPL didn't waste money on venues, then more cash could have been put into things that matter, like promoting events, getting sponsors, and waiving fees so professional and semi-pro teams could actually pay their players.

I didn't realize there was so much money wasted on venues...so where the f*** is the advertising budget if you're wasting that much on dumb venues? NPPL and PSP let me clue you in on something in the business world: if you don't advertise it then it doesn't exist. Advertise to spectators...get spectators. No one comes to an event because of the venue...they come to the venue because of the event. The extra money can be spent on extra bleachers for all the extra people your advertising would bring in (if you did it...)

[Josh.Smith]

Originally Posted by DynastyWP

I just got back into paintball after 4 year and what happened to pro paintball. IS seems like it just died. It went from playing at professional football and soccer stadiums to regular fields. In 2007 they even had a event indoors.The stands used to be packed and now they are completely empty. It went from 6 events a year to 4.

What Happened

How is laying down turf in the parking lot in Buffalo in any way better than playing an event on a nice grass field at a paintball facility? The stands are still full on Sunday, just like always. You are imagining a past that did not occur.

[BeGe]

Originally Posted by pykim01

more on topic: i think that there isn't enough room for advertising on tv. that is how most sports make their money. this is exactly why ice hockey died/is dying and lacrosse never made it. and why baseball and football are in it big!

See...this I don't get. Last TV I saw of paintball was the "race-to" type thing (tangent: call it a "best of whatever-number" like everyone else dammit) and every few minutes of action had a few minutes of wait between. It was perfect advertiser time but they just didn't show any ads. Instead we just sat there watching the players scratch their junk between rounds. Ads are actually good entertainment for the down parts of sports (not to mention they are $$$), use em!

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by BeGe

See...this I don't get. Last TV I saw of paintball was the "race-to" type thing (tangent: call it a "best of whatever-number" like everyone else dammit) and every few minutes of action had a few minutes of wait between. It was perfect advertiser time but they just didn't show any ads. Instead we just sat there watching the players scratch their junk between rounds. Ads are actually good entertainment for the down parts of sports (not to mention they are $$$), use em!

Maybe the viewer numbers weren't high enough and they couldn't sell any advertising.

[BeGe]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Maybe the viewer numbers weren't high enough and they couldn't sell any advertising.

Possible I guess. But advertising prices rise and fall based on the same projected viewing numbers that the companies would use to determine if they want to advertise...so I don't don't see any reason why a company wouldn't want to show their commercials during that time slot regardless of numbers, it would just be insanely cheap if few were projected to view.

To be honest my bet is that I've heard of pro leagues buying their way on to TV. Normally for sports that's not the case and the channel/network is the one wanting to televise the event, and therefore shoving their advertisers in the cracks where they can. I'm betting that the arrangement was closer to an infomercial vendor buying an hour of time on TV...so the network wasn't actually running it, just showing what video feed they were supplied to show that hour. Which isn't a sustainable business model for the paintball league unless they actually find their own advertisements to put on during the video feed (quite difficult I'd bet) because then they're still being driven by player dollars instead of spectator or advertiser dollars...and just now the player dollars have to pay for the TV hour too!

Again for me the best place to start by far is in creating a spectator atmosphere (like the beer and hot dog idea above) and then advertising the heck out of events to spectators to get them running on spectator dollars instead of player dollars (or at least a mix where player dollars is the lesser of the two). Then they can start running themselves like a real spectator sport and getting real TV time once there's a fan base the networks want to cater to. I just can't get over the fact that I've never once seen a spectator based advertisement for a paintball event. How on earth is the sport supposed to grow without spectators...and how on earth can you build a spectator base without advertising to them?

[-Mad-Skillz-]

Advertising can cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in expenses. The series just dont have that kind of money to only make a quarter of it back. Its all expenses and not worth it.

[BeGe]

Originally Posted by -Mad-Skillz-

Advertising can cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in expenses. The series just dont have that kind of money to only make a quarter of it back. Its all expenses and not worth it.

For a national television campaign set for primetime exposure for months maybe...but what would that accomplish for a tournament in 1 location of the country though?

Of course the pre-requisite for what I'm saying is that the people doing the advertising would know what they're doing and advertise in the proper methods, duh. I own 2 small businesses, so trust me when I say almost no businesses survive without advertising (unless it's a brick and mortar store with good location...in which case the location itself offers your front sign the advertising...so still being advertised, just you own the "billboard" location).

Nothing exists until it's advertised. The paintball leagues DO advertise their events through various methods, but they just advertise to players and not spectators (which is why it ends up a player money driven industry...they're the main ones that show up!). A properly targeted campaign with a combination of billboard ads, newspaper ads, local TV station ads along with a convenient news story on an upcoming event or a small paragraph in the sports section of the local newspaper can bring thousands of people to an event and only cost a couple thousand dollars in advertising. Not to mention that by raising the numbers you raise vendor interest and foster lifelong fans. Even if you just broke even for the event ticket sales you win in the long run (highly doubtful that you'd just break even though...a good event advertising agency can get you get very good returns on your efforts, they know what they're doing).

[bobsbarricades]

I still am amazed how many people go to those airshow/nascar events and they're really just about getting drunk with friends, funnel cakes, and machinery. We can let bored spectators actually SHOOT their family... why are we not rolling in bank paying EVERY pro team a salary?

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by bobsbarricades

I still am amazed how many people go to those airshow/nascar events and they're really just about getting drunk with friends, funnel cakes, and machinery. We can let bored spectators actually SHOOT their family... why are we not rolling in bank paying EVERY pro team a salary?

Motor sports are the most spectated events in the world.