[KGB-khrome]

I don't think they want watermarked images.
If the League announces that it supports the photographers and if they can only book you guys through the league site, but keep track for you and again show the minimum prices, only difference is your styles, it could work.

[MutR.]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

Let's do the math, if you can sell 20-30 images for $300 and you are shooting 1500 images per event, that's $15,000 for the entire 1500 images and you are still complaining about having to pay $150 total without submitting your DVD, wow, I'm gonna suggest to the NPPL they should charge more for the MEDIA PASS. They are charging way too much and Thank you Chris earlier post for bringing it to reality, non of these guys here would ever be aloud to shoot a major event. NPPL is giving you a chance to get your image onto a AD and get for name out there by asking to use your image so you can make the break from a non professional and into having your image seen by other professionals and maybe get hired to shoot, instead you're all wining about the DVD. Stop crying and Just pay the $150 so you don't have to submit a DVD, they're giving an option, its not like saying everyone has to submit a DVD.

My whole point went over your head.

The point is that i dont charge that much for paintball because the market isnt there for it. You have to adjust to your market, and paintball doesnt have a market hardly at all. I shoot paintball because i love paintball, and the players get joy out of seeing photos of themselves. Its that simple.

Also relentless, I used $300 because i do offer a $300 package and people do buy it. Of course it includes my time, prints, retouching, etc... then i offer lower packages with less time, less prints, and less retouching. im sure you know how that all works.

[Skipperdawg]

I know I'm tired but I think my point was missed. My issue is that even if they use your images and your name becomes known in the industry they have already set the precedent that people wanting photos don't need to pay for them. So now your name is out there but when someone comes to you because they've heard about you they will want photos for cheap/free because that's how the league does it. It just sets an ugly precedent. I have no issue with them limiting access, I think they should make it even more select, but giving you only $75 off of your media pass for a full DVD of your pictures is in no way fair. I've sold single pictures to manufactures for twice that amount.

I've been on the cover if the PSP website and in several magazines, but do you think people know who I am or know my name? I'd say no. It hasn't really helped me much at all. The majority of people who know me are because of my self promotion.

I guess all I'm really saying is that the $75 off for the league to get your DVD of photos is in no way fair or worth it.

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by ionshooter93

Do you have a copy of this agreement?.... So this means photographers who pay the $150 don't have to supply the images to the NPPL but the NPPL can still use them then if they find them online? If so that makes this policy even more outrageous. Does this also apply to all media at the event?



Also. Photo credits mean nothing. The only person who reads them is your mother.

ION, stop throwing out presumptuous statements, it means you pay 150 and don't have to give them to the NPPL, period, only when you pay $75 buck.
If you are talking about Video, yes they will be required to submit a reel.

[IplayforRelentless]

Originally Posted by MutR.

Also relentless, I used $300 because i do offer a $300 package and people do buy it. Of course it includes my time, prints, retouching, etc... then i offer lower packages with less time, less prints, and less retouching. im sure you know how that all works.

Ah, you do prints. I've been skimming over this thread.

If the league doesn't want watermarked images, then it's not unreasonable for us to be upset when they want $75 from us as well as a DVD of our photos, whether it's 20 images or 100.

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by Skipperdawg

I know I'm tired but I think my point was missed. My issue is that even if they use your images and your name becomes known in the industry they have already set the precedent that people wanting photos don't need to pay for them. So now your name is out there but when someone comes to you because they've heard about you they will want photos for cheap/free because that's how the league does it. It just sets an ugly precedent. I have no issue with them limiting access, I think they should make it even more select, but giving you only $75 off of your media pass for a full DVD of your pictures is in no way fair. I've sold single pictures to manufactures for twice that amount.

I've been on the cover if the PSP website and in several magazines, but do you think people know who I am or know my name? I'd say no. It hasn't really helped me much at all. The majority of people who know me are because of my self promotion.

I guess all I'm really saying is that the $75 off for the league to get your DVD of photos is in no way fair or worth it.

Hey sorry to say this, you have to market yourself better buddy, you got your photo on the cover of PSP, dude, you need to use that as leverage, NPPL is going to give you photo credit at least by the image. You need to ask for that minimum and you need to charge people after you get some pictures used. and as you stated you sold picture to manufacturer, keep doing it. NPPL is no way a manufacturer, its being ran by again"volunteers" at this point, its not making money YET, when it does, I"m sure they will pay for photo usage, just not that. point yet.

[ionshooter93]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

ION, stop throwing out presumptuous statements, it means you pay 150 and don't have to give them to the NPPL, period, only when you pay $75 buck.
If you are talking about Video, yes they will be required to submit a reel.

Did you even read what I posted? You said everyone has to sign a document saying they give the NPPL the right to use their images. So I was asking if the photographers who pay $150 have to sign this. If so that would mean even though they ay $150 they still give up their rights, they just do not have to send in images. This would mean the NPPL could go to any of the photographers websites who took images and posted them there and use them. I also asked if you have a copy of the document. I never made a presumption I asked a question. Thats what a ? mark stands for.

[ionshooter93]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

its not making money YET, when it does, I"m sure they will pay for photo usage, just not that. point yet.

Once they realize they can get images for free they never will.... Look at paintball magazines these days.

[MutR.]

Originally Posted by IplayforRelentless

Ah, you do prints. I've been skimming over this thread.

If the league doesn't want watermarked images, then it's not unreasonable for us to be upset when they want $75 from us as well as a DVD of our photos, whether it's 20 images or 100.

These are my senior portrait prices as well in case you missed that part. No way would i charge that much/do prints for paintball teams. Theres zero market for that in paintball.

I was just trying to prove that in the real world (not this fantasy paintball world) our photographs are worth WAY more than some "exposure" and -$75

[IplayforRelentless]

Originally Posted by MutR.

These are my senior portrait prices as well in case you missed that part. No way would i charge that much/do prints for paintball teams. Theres zero market for that in paintball.

I was just trying to prove that in the real world (not this fantasy paintball world) our photographs are worth WAY more than some "exposure" and -$75

Oh, see, I thought you were talking about paintball coverage haha. That's what I was talking about in my earlier post.

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by MutR.

My whole point went over your head.

The point is that i dont charge that much for paintball because the market isnt there for it. You have to adjust to your market, and paintball doesnt have a market hardly at all. I shoot paintball because i love paintball, and the players get joy out of seeing photos of themselves. Its that simple.

Also relentless, I used $300 because i do offer a $300 package and people do buy it. Of course it includes my time, prints, retouching, etc... then i offer lower packages with less time, less prints, and less retouching. im sure you know how that all works.

To be honest with you, what you are doing hurts the photography industry, cause if you charge little they are going to expect that others should charge little and so on and so on. that is why Architects have a creditation program so when you go through it you are approved and can charge a lot, just like doctors, so when you go to architects who are not board approved you get a sense of not knowing what you might get, even if they are great architects, so with you guys have to keep a certain standards, cause it will devalue not only you but ALL photographers and that is not fair.

[MutR.]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

To be honest with you, what you are doing hurts the photography industry, cause if you charge little they are going to expect that others should charge little and so on and so on. that is why Architects have a creditation program so when you go through it you are approved and can charge a lot, just like doctors, so when you go to architects who are not board approved you get a sense of not knowing what you might get, even if they are great architects, so with you guys have to keep a certain standards, cause it will devalue not only you but ALL photographers and that is not fair.

****ING DITTO. That's all i need to say

/thread

[Skipperdawg]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

Hey sorry to say this, you have to market yourself better buddy, you got your photo on the cover of PSP, dude, you need to use that as leverage, NPPL is going to give you photo credit at least by the image. You need to ask for that minimum and you need to charge people after you get some pictures used. and as you stated you sold picture to manufacturer, keep doing it. NPPL is no way a manufacturer, its being ran by again"volunteers" at this point, its not making money YET, when it does, I"m sure they will pay for photo usage, just not that. point yet.

I did get photo credit. You just proved my point though. That you can have your pics used all over the place and people still won't know you. That's because no one really pays attention to the credits.

Therefor the $75 you save for submitting photos gets you no more popular than you were before but the NPPL gets free photos from you.

Also you keep telling us to value our photos more and charge people what we are worth but at the same time defend the fact that the league wants a full DVD of them for $75.

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by Skipperdawg

I did get photo credit. You just proved my point though. That you can have your pics used all over the place and people still won't know you. That's because no one really pays attention to the credits.

Therefor the $75 you save for submitting photos gets you no more popular than you were before but the NPPL gets free photos from you.

I don't want to tell you how to do you business, but the NPPL runs AD, full page, runs flyers for each event, several different runs, it runs news paper ads, has website, banners and does a lot of promotion, you should be clipping all this stuff and have it in your portfolio, showing it to COMPANIES THAT MAKE MONEY and ask for certain prices for using your images.

Pay the $150 so you don't have to give up any images, take some amazing shots and sell them at the price your worth.
instead of getting stuck on the $75 & DVD. That's their policy as of now. If you don't like that policy don't use that option. simple as that. They obviously want to work with photographers, get photography in return give them exposure and portfolio pieces, but you don't like it so use option A. Simple isn't it. You can have a burger with fries or burger alone.

Burger with fries says you want to support and work with the League.
Burger alone says no thank you I don't want to work with you guys, just use your league for my own benefit.

and you know what both are okay, I think the NPPL will appreciate the first group and work with them more, but you can do either one.

[MutR.]

most of us already have a complete portfolio, and a reputation in the paintball world (albeit not necessarily with vendors)

We dont need exposure or work for our portfolio. we need Money.

What the NPPL is trying to do is something called TFP/CD (Time for prints/CD) Usually when a photographer and a company/model do TFP/CD they have a mutual agreement that both sides work for/with each other for free. both sides benefit. The Photographer benefits by getting experience/portfolio work, and the company/model benefits by getting free images. This is all fine and dandy, and im all for it.

When someone asks me to pay them to do TFP/CD...um...no thanks. If the NPPL wants quality photographs for adverts, then they need to hire a quality photographer, just like any other company.

I dont see Calvin Klein or Tommy Hilfiger telling their photographers to pay them then give them the images for free.

[Skipperdawg]

Honestly it doesn't affect me either way. If I attend an event it'll be for a magazine where I won't have to pay the $75/$150 or submit photos to them. I just think that the benefits that the photographer gets for submitting pics are not equal to the benefits the league gets from the deal. I think the photographer gets the short end of the stick and hence why I'm arguing that side.

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by MutR.

most of us already have a complete portfolio, and a reputation in the paintball world (albeit not necessarily with vendors)

We dont need exposure or work for our portfolio. we need Money.

What the NPPL is trying to do is something called TFP/CD (Time for prints/CD) Usually when a photographer and a company/model do TFP/CD they have a mutual agreement that both sides work for/with each other for free. both sides benefit. The Photographer benefits by getting experience/portfolio work, and the company/model benefits by getting free images. This is all fine and dandy, and im all for it.

When someone asks me to pay them to do TFP/CD...um...no thanks. If the NPPL wants quality photographs for adverts, then they need to hire a quality photographer, just like any other company.

I dont see Calvin Klein or Tommy Hilfiger telling their photographers to pay them then give them the images for free.

This is not a product, this is an event that NPPL spends money and time to organize, SO that is why you have something to shoot to put on your website and SELL to the players, I bet if you guys are willing to give away pictures to the players for FREE and to anyone who want is for free cause you love the sport so much, they might consider giving you a pass, ask them, but seriously, you said it, you need MONEY, this is all about money. so the issue really isn't the DVD, think about it, its the fact that you aren't charging enough to pay the $150. If you were really making good money shooting at these games $150 would be nothing, Vendors pay $1,500 for a booth 10x10, if they don't make money they don't come. So do good business and sell your pictures for what they are worth and pay the $150. NPPL is obviously wanting to work with you, give you a break. Choose your burger.

[UnXpected Killah]

I think KGB is onto something with the whole having nppl only have 'legit media' covering every event. im sure espn, sports illustrated, etc would be willing to come to every event for free and take up an hour or so in their tv slot or 5 pages in their magazine to try and attract the 2% of people who know what our sport is about. I'm sure they'd make more replaying last months hot dog eating contest or another time slot for sportscenter.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm all for the idea of if you think its too expensive to shoot nppl than its as simple as not going. no stress and no money out of your pocket.

I don't believe in the idea that they are 'paying' you by giving you a discount if you send them images. They make money either way, it just depends on how much. They aren't paying you by giving a discount on a number that they came up with for photo/video to pay. especially when it comes down to it like someone said, at most $1.50 for id and $8-10 for the 5 minutes the girl helps you at the booth. other than that, photo/video takes up no more of anyones time considering most of the refs hardly pay attention to id's.

I believe the nppl needs to focus more on regulating who gets onto the fields before the event rather than trying to weed out people based on how much they are willing to pay. also if the nppl wants photos for promo purposes, im sure they can afford 4-500 to a select few photographers for the weekend.


One last thing, KGB you keep saying you and the league barely turn a profit if any but tell the photo/video they need to increase their prices. Shouldn't the league and yourself charge more so you know youll be able to break even in the worst case scenario? There's obviously a reason why the league hasn't drastically increased it's prices to turn a profit. There's a flaw in the business model if you sell out for an event and barely make it out even.


Like I said dont get me wrong. I've only shot one nppl event at my own cost because I don't consider myself a professional and I don't think I'll really be out shooting on the field much. i just wanted to add my 2 cents.

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by Skipperdawg

Honestly it doesn't affect me either way. If I attend an event it'll be for a magazine where I won't have to pay the $75/$150 or submit photos to them. I just think that the benefits that the photographer gets for submitting pics are not equal to the benefits the league gets from the deal. I think the photographer gets the short end of the stick and hence why I'm arguing that side.

Yeh, same here I don't' think photographer are getting the short end. you read the post before yours, they want to make money. No one is forcing you to give up anything, only thing they raised the media pass price, period. If they can't afford then they might have to work with NPPL for the $75 deal, but if you can afford it, shouldn't be a deal, and if you aren't making at least $150 at an event then maybe this isn't something you should do for money, do it as a hobby, all hobbies cost money. give away your picture for the love of the sport. and if you gonna give away the pictures why not the league trying to make it grow.

[MutR.]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

This is not a product, this is an event that NPPL spends money and time to organize, SO that is why you have something to shoot to put on your website and SELL to the players, I bet if you guys are willing to give away pictures to the players for FREE and to anyone who want is for free cause you love the sport so much, they might consider giving you a pass, ask them, but seriously, you said it, you need MONEY, this is all about money. so the issue really isn't the DVD, think about it, its the fact that you aren't charging enough to pay the $150. If you were really making good money shooting at these games $150 would be nothing, Vendors pay $1,500 for a booth 10x10, if they don't make money they don't come. So do good business and sell your pictures for what they are worth and pay the $150. NPPL is obviously wanting to work with you, give you a break. Choose your burger.

i barely make enough money to maybe...MAYBE cover my plane tickets. Then i still have food, transportation, hotel, and now a $150/$75 fee (depending on if i want to let the nppl freeload off me). the issue really is the DVD. Im all for paying for a pass (it would keep dedicated photographers on the field) I think $150 is just too much on top of every other expense. I might pay $75 if i didnt have to give up images.

now submitting images for for evaluation would be different. I would submit some images, let the NPPL look them over, then offer me fair market value for use of that particular image. (fair market value in paintball really isnt much at all)

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by UnXpected Killah

they can afford 4-500 to a select few photographers for the weekend.

bigger picture: flight, hotel, rental, and reliable and talented photographer isn't as easy as you think to find