[Tempted (Banned)]

.... Did you go full term in the womb, or were you challenged by something?

[universal_dave]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

How many players are buying paint, or how little paint he buys for his field is completely irrelevant, and you know it.

No, it's not irrelevant at all, and I *know* that. Yes, it seems clear that you can't understand things beyond the "2+2=4" level, but that doesn't mean everyone else shares your handicap.

You keep on casting about for more and more explanations for his prices when the basic math proves your position is a fallacy. First it's that he may have a higher wholesale price. Then it's the amount of players that show up. Then it's how much paint he sells a day. None of these things have any effect on the simple fact that HE IS MARKING UP HIS CASES WAY TOO HIGH.

In your *opinion*, but you keep crying like it's some objective fact...but it's not. Simple capitalism is that the price of *anything* is "whatever the market will bear". People show up, they pay that price, they come back and pay it again. The market *obviously* supports his price. It is *not* "too high". Yes, it's expensive, but no, it's not incorrect.

If you can't understand the simple math that supports what we're saying, then you're a certifiable moron.

No, I understand clearly what you're saying...the problem is that what you're saying is *wrong*.

[universal_dave]

Originally Posted by randomdean

Half of that was pointed to horizon in explanation. And Abe lincoln is my home state homie. He grew up in Indiana not illinois. I never said my opinions were right, I said I was within my rights voicing my opinions. Not sure how you think you're totally right either given that everything you have said is also based on little to no facts about his specific fields situation. We're both speculating.

"I have a right to an opinion" is crap. If your opinion isn't informed, it's worse than useless, it's actively detrimental to a dialog. If you can't be bothered to know things, why should people care what you think?

I wasn't speculating about his business, I was pointing out how full of crap and baseless the things *you* said were.

[universal_dave]

Originally Posted by Tempted

.... Did you go full term in the womb, or were you challenged by something?

Seriously, dude...the stuff you're saying is painfully wrong.

[Tempted (Banned)]

I've stayed mostly factual and backed up all of my arguments with numbers. His only defense has been that apparently he wants us to believe his operating costs are 3 times that of a normal field.

[universal_dave]

Originally Posted by Tempted

I've stayed mostly factual and backed up all of my arguments with numbers. His only defense has been that apparently he wants us to believe his operating costs are 3 times that of a normal field.

Focusing on "the numbers" and "simple math" is a large part of why it is so painful to me to read what you're writing...as well as what appear to me to be bad assumptions on your part.

What is the *absolute* cheapest field near you. Do you only play there? Does everyone else only play there?

If not, then there are clearly factors that are *not* price about where people choose to spend money to play paintball.

You can run that same argument about total price for each specific element of the price in a day....the lowest field fee, the lowest price for paint, the lowest whatever. None of those things determine where everyone plays.

Every player makes a *value* judgement (which is classic economics) that include a LOT of factors when they pick where they want to play. Sure, price is part of it...but not everyone weighs every factor the same (and some folks won't even consider criteria that you find vitally important).

There's no *objective* correct answer for running a business except the very minimal "does it make money in a sustainable manner". As a field owner, you have to put together an "attractive package" that gets people to have a good day and want to come back. There is no "simple math" to determine what an attractive package is. If the package is attractive to enough people, all is well. If the package is not attractive, people won't return and the business will change or die. What is attractive to one person will not be the same as what's attractive to another. That's capitalism.

Some business owners will charge (and provide) the very minimum they need to to stay open. Others won't. The ones that won't may well have *drastically* different costs than the ones that do.

If you believe a field's job is to supply you with paintballs...that the owning of those particular objects is the point, then yes, his model is terrible.

If you believe that the field's job is to supply a good time, there's nothing that Horizon has said he does that prevents that....and I personally see value in his paint pricing methods for inducing a "low volume" method of play that may well be *quite* enjoyable for people who aren't looking to get into tournament play.

[jyocum10]

If some moron wants to go spend way more to play at his field and have low volumes of paint shot at them then good for them. Although it is common sense that if you charge $45 for a bag compared to $45 a case that you will make more money. If you were to sell 200 cases of paint all year you will make $36,000 if everyone buys them by the bag like you encourage. Thats quite high compared to the $9000 that a "good" field would make for selling the same amount of paint. But who really cares his field is still open for a reason, obviously the local people enjoy the way he runs things and dont mind paying a ridiculous price to play there.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Actually I have a choice of 4 fields and don't pay to play at any of them. The two I play at most are actually the two least expensive to play at. I can play at higher end fields at the same price, I prefer the others.

The reason is because the less expensive fields have more players on average than the others. The one I play at most doesn't even have a speedball field anymore, nobody played there when it was open because as a whole, walk ons prefer to play in nice woodsball fields. The team still practices in the castle field but the airball is gone. When you give a group of 20 a choice of a 3 acre, nicely built woodsball field or a 1/4 acre airball arena, the choice is overwhelmingly woodsball. Since there are far fewer tournament players than rec players it makes sense to cater to them. What this also means is that most players don't want to spend more than they have to. Horizon is, by his own admittance, charging more than he has to. If every field went to his absurd business plan paintball would be dead in less than a month. That is the one and only reason I'm voicing this as much as I am.

I love the sport, and right now the sport is where my primary source of income sits. I know what it takes to balance a field between pricing, location, field options and in game play. I hate seeing people being taken advantage of by someone who is literally extorting them. Charging more than you have to because you tell them it "helps them". Its a true shame that any field follows that guide and my only hope is that they all crumble. I don't want them to make money because them making money means more people get taken for a ride.

In the last 10 years I've been nothing more than a rec player who attends scenarios. I've owned $5 markers to $1500 markers and everything in between. I talk to paintballers every day, I know what they want and what they are willing to do to get it. A field owner should also be a field operator and should spend as much time in the pits as they do in the office. They see what people are saying about them and can adjust accordingly. A field who never changes their procedures has a field owner who does none of that.

Horizon has openly admitted that he charges more than he has to and has been doing it for years. How can you not see a problem with that? How can you tell someone "the reason I'm charging you $10 for 100 rounds, a rate of $200 per case, is because it will help you"? How is that passing your ethics barrier?

[Nahib_Stilgar]

OK you just said two important things that support your argument.

one, your fields get a lot of people and two, "If every field went to his abserd business plan paintball would be dead in less than a month."

First off. The only way a Low Rate of Fire filed could possibly survive AND maintain cheap prices is if it was PACKED with people. High Turnover...

This is not a viable option for multiple reasons. a) A lot of people prefer to play high volume games. b) General population density would have a hard time getting the numbers to provide enough people and c) Canada has 1/10th the population of the US in the first place!!

Therefore the only way to maintain the LOW RATE OF FIRE field is to charge more! Not More than necessary, but more because it IS necessary.

Point two, "If every field went to his abserd business plan paintball would be dead in less than a month."

Horizon has already said that he does not want or expect EVERY field to follow his method. Infact He has stated that it is BETTER when one field goes for cheap paint and high volume and one field goes for expensive paint and Low volume. Thus giving players of all kinds the choice to play where they want!

No two People are exactly the same, they don't always want the same things. That is why there are multiple choices in EVERYTHING.

As for your remark about makeing sure your field owner is listening to his customers...Horizon is an active member here, on MCB, TdotBallers, and presumably on other forums where I don't visit. He has listened to what people want and has actually provided it for them.

Example, When was the last time you heard someone complain about getting shot TOO LITTLE?? Considering the amount of threads, complaints and rage quits over being shot a lot, (extra shots in a string, bonus ball, over shooting ...whatever the case) High rate of fire has created a lot of problems that a lot of players don't want to deal with. Where can those players go to find a game that is garenteed to avoid those issues? Places like Horizon's field gives them that game. Are these people willing to pay extra to get what they want? YES!

Don't want to pay? No problem, the field down the road will set you up with a cheap case and you can shoot as much as you want as long as you are willing to recieve the same.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Tempted

Horizon has openly admitted that he charges more than he has to and has been doing it for years.

Oh please show.

[universal_dave]

Originally Posted by Tempted

Actually I have a choice of 4 fields and don't pay to play at any of them. The two I play at most are actually the two least expensive to play at. I can play at higher end fields at the same price, I prefer the others.

Leaving your obvious sense of entitlement aside, you skipped right past the question. Did you not understand it? I will ask it again...

Why do the 2 "more expensive" fields get *any* players at all? If *everyone* doesn't play at the cheapest field, there must be *some* reason to play at a field that isn't "because it's the cheapest" and that reason (or set of reasons) is *more* important to the players than how much it costs.

Are you seriously telling me you don't get that?

>>editing out your actual listing of reasons people play paintball that you then completely ignore in the rest of this paragraph.<<

Since there are far fewer tournament players than rec players it makes sense to cater to them. What this also means is that most players don't want to spend more than they have to. Horizon is, by his own admittance, charging more than he has to. If every field went to his absurd business plan paintball would be dead in less than a month. That is the one and only reason I'm voicing this as much as I am.

Every real business owner charges more than he has to to stay open. If you don't actually get that, I likewise become concerned that I am arguing with a child. Are you over 18? Do you have a job? Are you sheltered?

That aside, calling his pricing "absurd" is unfounded as is your completely baseless assertion that it would kill the sport in a month. I played this sport for a *decade* paying paint prices comparable to what Horizon is quoting...making a *lot* less money than I make now...the sport did just fine. Plus, the danger of all business owners colluding to form a cartel and shift paint prices up *everywhere* is less than zero. Your "concern" is best described as F.U.D. (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)...it's a scare-mongering tactic used most frequently is political ads...."This one tiny thing will *destroy* the thing you care about! Vote for me and send that bad man home!"

I love the sport, and right now the sport is where my primary source of income sits. I know what it takes to balance a field between pricing, location, field options and in game play. I hate seeing people being taken advantage of by someone who is literally extorting them. Charging more than you have to because you tell them it "helps them". Its a true shame that any field follows that guide and my only hope is that they all crumble. I don't want them to make money because them making money means more people get taken for a ride.

Again, every real business owner charges more than they have to...that's the nature of business, it is *supposed* to generate a profit. If you're opposed to profit, you're living in the wrong part of the world. Oh, and apparently, you *literally* don't know the meaning of the word "extort", it's completely not applicable. As far as your assertion that you "know what it takes to balance these things"....seriously, no, you don't. If you were to open a business thinking like you do, the *best* you could hope for is that it kept you in beenie weenies and mac-n-cheese. You'd have to see the light in what Horizon has been saying and actually grow to *understand* how to run a business, or you'd more likely fail (and staying open and living hand-to-mouth is *actually* "fail", it's just a fail some people are willing to live with).

In the last 10 years I've been nothing more than a rec player who attends scenarios. I've owned $5 markers to $1500 markers and everything in between. I talk to paintballers every day, I know what they want and what they are willing to do to get it. A field owner should also be a field operator and should spend as much time in the pits as they do in the office. They see what people are saying about them and can adjust accordingly. A field who never changes their procedures has a field owner who does none of that.

Now you're willfully ignoring that he's said he *has* experimented with how he's run his field, and he's told people the results of that. So, effectively you're arguing against someone who doesn't exist (because you're not talking about Horizon).

Horizon has openly admitted that he charges more than he has to and has been doing it for years. How can you not see a problem with that? How can you tell someone "the reason I'm charging you $10 for 100 rounds, a rate of $200 per case, is because it will help you"? How is that passing your ethics barrier?

It passes my ethics test just fine, and in fact, I *do* see the help for a certain set of players in that price plan and I can well imagine there are enough of them to keep a well run field in business, as it appears to happen.

Plus, if you look up, to your prior paragraph, you'll see a statement that shows pretty clearly (to me) that you're position is hypocritical. You've owned a $1,500 paintball gun? You realize the total markup on that is pretty comparable to what your complaining about with Horizon's paint, right? Or do you not understand business and "whatever the market will bear"? If you're not crying that the high end marker manufacturers are destroying the sport in a month, then really, you don't have much of a point at all.

[rexisme]

I must say, Horizon has kept it classy this entire time and has went above and beyond explaining himself to all of you when he shouldn't even have to.

I get it, his prices are high, I've said myself his prices are stupid high but, why waste your time arguing with him? Sure, his prices would deter me at first but, I'd give it a try and if its an experience above and beyond, then I would come back. I just wouldn't play at his field as often. As a consumer you DO have a choice. Obviously he is doing something right and providing a different experience. I mean afterall, his business would be out of business, a business can't succeed due to new customers only. So he must have some repeat customers. In order to have repeat customers at those prices he must be doing something right.

I'm honestly starting to see what he is talking about. You people that are arguing and want him to have $45 cases of paint just like your local field are the same budget ballers I talked about in the whole what do you hate about rec ball thread, the ones that you just hate seeing on the field because all that comes out of their mouthes is negativity towards anything that cost money. Nothing in life is getting cheaper, every sport is expensive, if you cannot afford something. Dont do it, find another hobby, twiddle your ****ing thumbs. I dont know, around here we call your kind "white trash" maybe he is trying to keep the "white trash" out. He is just not being as blunt.

Oh, and the guy that came in later and is trying to type all eloquently. Seriously, you're a ****ing douche bag. Just the tip dont count, you'll be a virgin forever.

[reshafer]

Originally Posted by rexisme

I must say, Horizon has kept it classy this entire time and has went above and beyond explaining himself to all of you when he shouldn't even have to.

I get it, his prices are high, I've said myself his prices are stupid high but, why waste your time arguing with him? Sure, his prices would deter me at first but, I'd give it a try and if its an experience above and beyond, then I would come back. I just wouldn't play at his field as often. As a consumer you DO have a choice. Obviously he is doing something right and providing a different experience. I mean afterall, his business would be out of business, a business can't succeed due to new customers only. So he must have some repeat customers. In order to have repeat customers at those prices he must be doing something right.

I'm honestly starting to see what he is talking about. You people that are arguing and want him to have $45 cases of paint just like your local field are the same budget ballers I talked about in the whole what do you hate about rec ball thread, the ones that you just hate seeing on the field because all that comes out of their mouthes is negativity towards anything that cost money. Nothing in life is getting cheaper, every sport is expensive, if you cannot afford something. Dont do it, find another hobby, twiddle your ****ing thumbs. I dont know, around here we call your kind "white trash" maybe he is trying to keep the "white trash" out. He is just not being as blunt.

Oh, and the guy that came in later and is trying to type all eloquently. Seriously, you're a ****ing douche bag. Just the tip dont count, you'll be a virgin forever.

Now thats not true at all, I remember when paint was that expensive no matter where you went. I played then, and loved it, and its true, I was more conservative with my paint then, but also, guns didnt shoot as fast then as they do now. I perfectly understand what Horizon is getting at by raising prices in that sense, it still just seems like a rip off to me.

You calling everyone white trash because they want to play but in some cases cannot afford is about as trashy as it goes. Not all kids can have their parents buy them nice stuff, granted that doesnt give them the right to be *******s to people who do have nice things, but its the same the other way around. You are bringing yourself down to that level by *****ing about them and what they can afford. Then make yourself one of the most immature people on the thread by making a comment about someones sex life. Seriously, do us all a favor and go away.

[universal_dave]

Originally Posted by reshafer

I perfectly understand what Horizon is getting at by raising prices in that sense, it still just seems like a rip off to me.

If you believe the purpose of a paintball field is to provide you with paintballs and that the owning of those specific items in quantity is the point...then absolutely yes, it's a rip off.

If the point is to have a fun day, there's no way to extrapolate that from how much it costs (especially by nit picking only *part* of the cost). It's something that has to be experienced and judged for yourself. If the "fun" is worth the "cost", there's no rip off.

Then make yourself one of the most immature people on the thread by making a comment about someones sex life. Seriously, do us all a favor and go away.

Not the worst thing that's been said to me, ever...and actually provided a bit of a laugh...I've never had anyone get the meaning of TIP to categorically wrong. It was a "coke through the nose" sort of moment...and really, isn't that what the internets are for?

[reshafer]

Originally Posted by universal_dave

Not the worst thing that's been said to me, ever...and actually provided a bit of a laugh...I've never had anyone get the meaning of TIP to categorically wrong. It was a "coke through the nose" sort of moment...and really, isn't that what the internets are for?

Yes I do believe you are right. I've just been at everyone this entire thread. Myself at some points too looking back lol

[byarosh201]

Originally Posted by universal_dave

It was a "coke through the nose"

No drug talked.

[rexisme]

I was just trying to stir the pot..... Jiggled that line out their and noone bit other than someone protecting your honor... blah blah.... That is all, carry on....

[techer200]

I am a newb. I am 26 and have always wanted to play paintball but havent because it is expensive. I recently got a good job and decided that I would give it a go. when i first what researching what it would cost ect. I noticed that paint is stupid high......but after playing for a little bit i realize it isnt that bad if you dont waste it. (By the way I am talking about woodsball) Cheap walmart paint is $40 for 2000 so that is .02 per pb. Good paint starts at $60 that is .03 per pb. When I first stared I was using a spyder and it was not accurate and I would go through about 1200 paintballs a day. Now I am going through 200 a day by buying and accurate gun and learning when to shoot and when it would just be a waste of paint. So on average i spend 4 bucks a day. I joined a local club that meets up every two weeks at someones farm so I dont have entry or air.

Tip from a newb: buy an accurate gun= less paint.

[Zethis]

Originally Posted by techer200

Tip from a newb: buy an accurate gun= less paint.

Every gun is/can be accurate as long as you have clean equipment, use quality paint, and have consistent air pressure.

[SNAKESNIPER (Banned)]

Originally Posted by techer200

Tip from a newb: buy an accurate gun= less paint.

Tip from a non-newb: ^^^This is bad advice.

No paintball gun is more accurate than any other, unless it hasn't been properly maintained or cleaned.

[Tempted (Banned)]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

Tip from a non-newb: ^^^This is bad advice.

No paintball gun is more accurate than any other, unless it hasn't been properly maintained or cleaned.

Well there is a difference in some guns. For the standard new player, no. But that is because they are more than likely going to be shooting sear trippers.

You can go on for hours with a poppet vs spool valve thread, but both of those are going to give a more consistent cycle than any sear tripper(apart from maybe an Automag). That means they will be more consistently accurate. Also most sear trippers(again Automags don't fall here because of the unique valve) have a massive weight transfer both before and after the pin valve is pushed. This means more kick, which means more vibration which can decrease accuracy. This is where the pump vs semi accuracy debate stems from. Technically, in the hands of your average player, a pump does seem more accurate. But bolt them both to a table and they are identical. One way weight transfer(pump) vs two way transfer(semi) is the difference. That's an argument for another day.