[big_scott]

Originally Posted by Rampager2000

I don't buy that. They knew they were going to implement the service. If they didn't for sure, they were in the final stages of confirming it. Either way, the early talk of map packs and all gives it away. Big corporations plan ahead. They would as well.



I'm sorry, again. Too many BF fanboys have bashed CoD for having elite for this argument to stand. While I don't mind Elite or Premium too much, BF fanboys flamed and flamed on CoD having this when it first came out.

The tone can't change now. It must stay the same.

I don't like either, and I will not support it. When the two recent big releases came out, Borderlands 2 and Torchlight 2, I bought Torchlight. Why? Well, I'm sure Borderlands will be great. I'm sure it is. I'm not game for 5 $15 expansions. I'd rather buy it in 2 years for 75% off during a Steam sale. Torchlight 2, on the other hands, has open mod tools and actually PROMOTES people making mods for their game. They like to see what fans can do, and actually implemented some of the more common mods into TL2. The game is fun, the company is successful, and they have a loyal customer out of me.

Honestly, BF3 wasn't a bad game. It's alright. Graphics are great, gameplay is fun, and it's generally enjoyable to play. But no VOIP is unacceptable. That's entirely on the piece of **** we call Battlelog.

I'm sure EA was talking about Premium before BF3 launched, but I honestly think they were waiting to see how well Elite performed before they implemented something similar.

I'm still not getting why having 5 $15 expansions is a bad thing. Do you think you should receive all extra content for free? Is that the level of entitlement gamers have gotten to? Mods are great, but few mods can match the production value of an expansion made by real game developers with money behind it. If you want to wait a year and get a game with its expansions for cheaper, there's nothing wrong with that. If someone doesn't want to wait and is willing to pay for the game and its expansion at full price or with a season pass, there isn't anything wrong with that either. Just don't act like you should be able to play it right away and still get it for cheaper.

Originally Posted by Treghc

Eh... Not so much. Publishers have a large say in telling the developers what they want. Remember, the publishers are the main source of financing for the developers. Having worked with developers for games like FEAR, Alice, Guild Wars, and some Valve employees, it was a big eye opener to see just how influential publishers can be. They set super tight guidelines for release dates, only to continuously tighten the dates which only helps them gain control on what is to be implemented and what is to be taken out or changed. For most developers, it is a constant struggle of power between them and the publishing company to create the game they want to make.

I can't argue with first hand knowledge. So I won't.


I'm not trying to be an EA apologist. They have made many decisions in the past year and a half that did not have gamers best interest in mind. However, I understand why they did, as well. A few years ago, they were making decisions that benefited us. They were more willing to back unproven IP's and developers, and it gave us great games like Dead Space. That thinking outside of the box lost them a lot of money, the investors stepped in, and now we have the much more by-the-book EA of today. My biggest problem with all of this is because people are acting like EA is singlehandedly destroying the gaming industry when the world's biggest publisher Activision has been doing everything bad they are doing and more. Not to mention Nintendo, who somehow always gets a pass despite doing nothing but churning out the same games for decades.

[Rampager2000]

Originally Posted by big_scott

I'm sure EA was talking about Premium before BF3 launched, but I honestly think they were waiting to see how well Elite performed before they implemented something similar.

I'm still not getting why having 5 $15 expansions is a bad thing. Do you think you should receive all extra content for free? Is that the level of entitlement gamers have gotten to? Mods are great, but few mods can match the production value of an expansion made by real game developers with money behind it. If you want to wait a year and get a game with its expansions for cheaper, there's nothing wrong with that. If someone doesn't want to wait and is willing to pay for the game and its expansion at full price or with a season pass, there isn't anything wrong with that either. Just don't act like you should be able to play it right away and still get it for cheaper.

Uhh, I paid for the game. I should get all of the game then. Especially when you have DLC ready, on launch, and charge people for it down the road. That's bull****. I'm not a fan of paying $60 for a game, $80 for a game with a few more items, and $15 every few months to get all the content. What should be done is they release the game, have updates with new content (even if they release mod tools). When/if they come out with some big update, charge for it. Maybe an expansion? Maybe a whole addition to the game? Look at Guild Wars. They didn't charge per month. They had a transaction system but only for non-useful things. They charged you for the game and for the huge, game sized expansions. They had an extremely successful game and I promise you, GW2 will be the same way.

There is a difference between feeling entitled to free stuff and feeling entitled to being delivered a game that will have good updates and good content releases. That's not too much to ask, Valve does it all the time and look at them.

And mods are are alright? You do realize Day Z is a mod, right? That Source has tons of successful mods on it. UT04 has tons of successful mods on it. While there are many non-useful mods out there, there are the few great ones that make having mod tools worth having.

I just still think BF pulled shady moves not telling people what they planned to do with the game. They could have brought up their bad points at E3, but they didn't in pursuit of praise. CoD said what was there, what they had, and they got flamed for it but they continued to be more successful. This starts down a whole new point I don't feel like getting into.

I can't argue with first hand knowledge. So I won't.


I'm not trying to be an EA apologist. They have made many decisions in the past year and a half that did not have gamers best interest in mind. However, I understand why they did, as well. A few years ago, they were making decisions that benefited us. They were more willing to back unproven IP's and developers, and it gave us great games like Dead Space. That thinking outside of the box lost them a lot of money, the investors stepped in, and now we have the much more by-the-book EA of today. My biggest problem with all of this is because people are acting like EA is singlehandedly destroying the gaming industry when the world's biggest publisher Activision has been doing everything bad they are doing and more. Not to mention Nintendo, who somehow always gets a pass despite doing nothing but churning out the same games for decades.

I'm not trying to say EA is destroying the industry. Rather, they are part of what is wrong with it today. Which is fine, I suppose. I will continue to support what I want as will others. I just disagree with a lot of what they do.

Also, have you ever dealt with EA customer service? Once you get passed the 3 hour wait to talk to someone, it's horrible. It took my dad 3 weeks to figure out an issue where they basically said it was not their fault that it didn't work, there was nothing they could do, and hung up. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but that pissed us off.

I did deal with one guy once who was great to talk to, though.

I would like to thank you for having a level headed debate with me and not pulling insults and ****. I enjoy this.

Edit: I'd also like to add another first hand account here.

Anyone ever heard of From Esther? It's an indie game based on Source and whatnot made by a single guy. I remember he would frequent the forums answering peoples' questions about the game. I remember him saying a few times he couldn't do a lot of what he wanted to do based on the publisher pushing him to do what he wanted. He also said they were so unfair with their business practices and whatnot. He never pulled exact figures, but said if he didn't do it for a hobby, he couldn't. He was a great guy, easy to talk to, and had so many plans for his game. I'm sure he's gotten there by now. But it was interesting to hear that.

[Sand6452]

Originally Posted by doomsday57

Well i feel the new guns just rip on me because i dont have them i look at them shoot they turn kill me in like two shots after i hit them like 4 times its ridiculous!

Maybe you just bad?

And seriously no complaint can stack up to what they did to Command and Conquer. Ever.

[jcdenton69]

You don't like on disc DLC? You're so entitled.

[Promagistrate]

Originally Posted by Sand6452

And seriously no complaint can stack up to what they did to Command and Conquer. Ever.

.

[doomsday57]

Originally Posted by Sand6452

Maybe you just bad?

And seriously no complaint can stack up to what they did to Command and Conquer. Ever.

LOL me bad that funny ..

[They Call Me Rain]

shut
your face

[Drex17]

Originally Posted by doomsday57

LOL me bad that funny ..

Well considering I can do just fine with vanilla weapons...

[SmartyJones]

Originally Posted by Rampager2000

No, he has a valid point.

EA lied and deceived so much to make BF3 to look like the good guy on the market while Call of Duty ate flak for what they were saying.

Perfect example?

E3, when both games were announced. CoD was mentioning Elite, getting booed, etc. etc. But BF3 made no mention of the lack of VOIP, the fact that the game would be released with content to be released, and that they would, in fact, add a premium service to the game just like Elite.

EA pressured Dice into delivering the product the way it came. There have been a few talks on the internet about companies doing similar things. It is no new secret. Some of the blame falls on Dice, like the poor hit registration and the faulty optimization for lower computers. But a lot of what's wrong fell entirely on EA.

I mean, ****, how the hell can you market your game as the CoD killer, and NOT HAVE VOIP?!?

They spent too much time adapting to have a similar market strategy as CoD while doing the same bad things, but doing it in a less public manner. This disgusts me and I will sure as hell not be buying anymore EA games. BF3 was the last. Sorry DICE, I like you, but you need to find a new producer.

Sure, say I'm bashing. Say this is not EAs fault or how I'm crazy. I have been saying the same thing before release, after release before I played it, and after I played it. It's an alright game ruined by a greedy corporation that has killed its own following.

Sad. And I wanted BF3 to be the next UT2004 or CSS so bad.

Difference is, COD Elite is a yearly subscription and BF Premium is a one time fee. I don't like it either way.


With Madden, the stagnation is more due to lack of competition than anything else. Back when 2k made football games, EA still always had the better game, it's just 2k's product being there forced EA to throw their best out there every year.

Also OP, have you played Madden this year at all? They finally added the ability to edit players in Franchise mode a couple years ago. Well this year they took out Franchise mode, replaced it with connected careers, and you can only use the official rosters for it, even in offline mode. This year's Madden is complete horse****.

[SmartyJones]

Originally Posted by doomsday57

Well i feel the new guns just rip on me because i dont have them i look at them shoot they turn kill me in like two shots after i hit them like 4 times its ridiculous!

I don't think that's true. The only new gun that's OP is the FAMAS and that was from Karkand. AUG has great damage but a ton of recoil. MTAR is deadly close up but falls off at medium-long range, which is how carbines should be.

Everything else is pretty balanced when it comes to new weapons. SCARL is one of the most balanced medic weapons, ACW is mediocre, LSAT sucks and L86 is above average for support. SPAS is a less noob version of the 870. M417 is a slightly worse version of the M39. And JNG90 is pretty balanced.

The main problems with the game are core problems, not with new weapons being better.

- Slugs are OP. They go too far and yet they have the same effectiveness as buckshot up close.
- Underbarrelled shotguns are OP. No reason for only one class to get a secondary shotgun.


Other than that the major issues of the game have been fixed. Frags with auto shotguns was patched, the USAS in general was nerfed, glitches have been patched (with exception to the metro glitch), et cetera. They've done a pretty good job fixing issues. There are some things they could have done better, but that's true of all games.

And anyways, none of this pertains to EA, as DICE handles everything talked about in my post and the guy I quoted.

[doomsday57]

I still feel that they shouldnt have touched the game i liked it way more than after all this

[zellthemedic]

I like conversations like this. Long, thought-provoking...

Keep up the good work, ST:T:G. You're doing god's work.

[SmartyJones]

Touched in what way? With DLC or with patches? They kind of had to patch it because USAS+Frags was game breaking. As far as DLC it doesn't hurt you if you don't get it. I dislike that they included guns in the DLC, I think it should have just been maps.

[doomsday57]

Patches my bad should have specified. They also messed up the helicopters. the frags were annoying but i didn't feel they were always too bad some games yes not all though lol

[Fuzzy R. McNuggs]

imo its better to have one game and then release a bunch of dlc

otherwise its title after title that are practically the same thing

[memorex]

oh, so you talking about moder warfare now.... ^^

[Psybuster]

they better not screw up Sim City 5...BETTER NOT SCREW WITH THIS GAME

[Fearless_Leader]

Originally Posted by big_scott

I'm still not getting why having 5 $15 expansions is a bad thing. Do you think you should receive all extra content for free? Is that the level of entitlement gamers have gotten to? Mods are great, but few mods can match the production value of an expansion made by real game developers with money behind it. If you want to wait a year and get a game with its expansions for cheaper, there's nothing wrong with that. If someone doesn't want to wait and is willing to pay for the game and its expansion at full price or with a season pass, there isn't anything wrong with that either. Just don't act like you should be able to play it right away and still get it for cheaper.

My problem with the dlc for bf3 was they waited till the karkand dlc to up/fix the destruction level to be closer with what they advertised before launch. DLC should to add to the game not fix things we were told we would get a launch if you want me to happily pay money for them.

[Rampager2000]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy R. McNuggs

imo its better to have one game and then release a bunch of dlc

otherwise its title after title that are practically the same thing

OR you make a kickass game that sells well enough you can ride off those sales for a while before you make another officially sanctioned DLC/addon or something.

How many games have been in the counter strike series since release? How many DLC have they released?

Unreal Tournament 2004 still has a loyal following on some servers because of how damn well they made mod tools. And their demo was ****ing awesome.

The problem nowadays is companies seem too busy counting pennies to make nickels.

I agree that title after title is bad, but so is stupid *** DLC and that's where we're heading. A great example is Dungeon Defenders. ****, that game has like $60 in DLC. You could get most of it free within the week it released, but now, it's ****ing expensive. And the extra character packs are like $8 alone. That's ****ing ridiculous. They killed their player base by themselves.

I still think a game that is honestly good enough that it doesn't need DLC to keep players around would be how to do it right. Hold on, do a lot of patches, fix what the **** needs to be fixed and don't spend as much time as new content development. Release huge, meaningful DLC on rare occasions and you'll have an extremely successful game.. Without mod tools.

But modern companies don't seem willing enough to actually do what the community asks. You only seem to see this with Indies, which is why, in my opinion, Indie games have taken off as well as they have. You often get great support from people that take it seriously. As opposed to EA, who doesn't seem to give two ****s if people like it or not most of the time.

I don't like where the gaming industry for computers is heading. It's progressively stagnating an already dying market. I'm sure we will see a major revolution at some point, where some game comes in and breaks the mold again. Sadly, I do not see any games coming up that have that opportunity. Guild Wars, maybe. I've heard too many controversial things from players about it. But that's only RPG. The market desperately needs a great FPS to take over the market. I think Valve could have done it with CSGO had they decided to just let CSS remain what it was and create an all new game that has true realism game modes, arcade modes for casuals, and tons of other stuff. You can see where they made this attempt with GO but it just didn't work properly. A game that's a perfect mix of CoD and BF, containing the best elements of both, with game modes very similar to each, would kill the market. And I feel Valve, as a company, seems to be the only major corporation that cares sometimes. They make a great product, usually. Even their "bad" games really aren't that bad, they're just bad for them.

I don't feel like I'm being too greedy. The market has proven before what it likes. These games usually include mod tools, server browsers, good (not great) graphics and a solid engine that is adaptable and easy to work on for actual mods to come about.

[doomsday57]

one or two dlcs are cool w.e but the amount they have plus that premium nonsense makes you almost be able to buy another game. Or it would be nice if all the DLCs were playable in the next version of the game as well that would be legit and then i wouldnt mind paying for it.

[cynicalrider]

Messed up the helicopters how? By removing the gunner flares? Heli's were almost invincible between below radar, pilot ecm, and gunner flares on a good working pair. Even still I can fairly easily rape ground forces with the attack chopper. And you aren't getting owned by new guns, you just suck. Gun balancing in this game is pretty on par.