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Old 04-05-2005, 09:26 AM #1
Fargbollen
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No more ballbreaks!!!

Mods, please sticky this!

Why have Matrixes had less paint breaks with brittle paint and HALOs than Angels even though the cycling isn't more gentle?
Why does the gun still "chop" even though I have eyes on it and it runs on the supposed "nice-on-paint" 50/200 psi setting? WTF!???!
Now I know exactly why. It has mostly to do with not quite obviuos board settings and the bolt position. Well, I'm sure some people here already knew these things or at least the greater part of it, but I'll sum it up so anyone can do it easy.

The following is instructions on how to not get any paint breaks (chops, barrel breaks and so on)on an LP Angel with eyes, even using very brittle paint and using a HALO. This includes Speed 03/04 or A4 with aftermarket eye boards (WAS, Predator, Syndicate), A4 FLY with stock WDP board, Speed 05 with stock WDP board, G7 with stock WDP board.
Of course, if you're using unusable damaged paint then there is a limit where nothing works, this is just a guideline on how to make the gun work under normal conditions. But it's amazing how well these few things actually work. Try it and you'll see.
Just follow the guidelines below.

I've isolated the three factors that are most important, and I'll list them in the order of precedence although you should do all three.
It's easy as 1,2,3...

1. Correct BIP
The Ball in Place Delay needs to be long enough so that a ball will have time to settle in the breech before being fired. If it doesn't, then it will be slammed against the front edge of the breech, something that tough paint can handle but brittle can't which results mostly in breaks in the barrel and sometimes in the breech.
This is the thing I finally figured out: It has been thought by most manufacturers of guns and custom boards that this delay needs to be a lot less than it actually has for the ball to never have contact with the breech edge. On slower cycling guns this worked, but as guns have been made to pneumatically cycle faster and faster a proper BIP delay becomes more and more of a factor and at the same time it becomes less of a hindrance to high ROF.
The BIP time delay is called different things depending on board manufacturer. BIP is as far as I recall a WAS board standard, on the WDP boards this is adjsuted by what's called the "hopper speed setting" (slow hopper type = very high BIP delay), on a DM board it's called "Eye sensitivity level", on Chaos boards it's called After Eye Delay and so on. But it's the same thing in the end, just different names for it. I prefer the name BIP as this is a more exact definition of what it really is.
Anyway, this is the ony thing you really need to be aware of: The more brittle paint you use the higher BIP should be used. And the BIP recommended by most manufacturers is often much too short for brittle paint.
Note that the paint may be fine and strong at the beginning of the day but cold and/or wet weather conditions affect paintballs a great deal, making them temporarily more brittle. Do a drop test on a hard surface, if the paint can be dropped from overhead and bounce, you have tough paint, if it breaks when dropped from waist level it's very brittle and needs more BIP.
Here's an example: Set an A4 FLY to one or two steps lower hopper type if you use brittle paint, I'd recommend Medium speed for HALO B, not the Fast setting. If you still break paint, try the Slow setting, the gun will still shoot ropes.
Do not lower ROF when using brittle paint, just the BIP/ Hopper speed setting.

2. Rollback
Rollback needs to be adjusted to a minimum or paint in the ballstack gets pinched during the firing cycle. Some guns have less rollback than a normally set up Angel, some have a lot more, this has to do with how far forward the bolt position is and what type of bolt face is used. Flat face Radioactive or flat face Venturii or WDP softface are the best alternatives i've found so far. On your Angel set the Ram to where the breech clicks. An alternative is to use the jam/RAS bolt.
Note that on the G7 this is done automatically at a pull of the back lever.

3. Gun cycling pressure 50/200 or less.
Set the gun cycling pressure to 50 psi in the LPR, about 200 on the inline reg and Dwell at a level where the gun doesn't get drop-off.
This does three things, mostly it reduces kick and sound signature, but it's also handy in emergencies when you need to shoot with the eyes turned off because it lessens the risk of a full chop.
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Last edited by Fargbollen : 04-06-2005 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:12 PM #2
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Nice post. Mods sticky this.
I always use my sFast setting on my fly but occasionally still chop, ram is adjusted far enough forward do you think that lowering hopper speed to Fast or even Medium ( using empire B) will reduce this?
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:23 PM #3
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Yes! That's it exactly.
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Last edited by Fargbollen : 04-05-2005 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:31 PM #4
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Mods, this is something people ask about all the time, so how about making it a sticky before it disappears into the ocean of little read threads starting on page 2?
I'd hate to have to write this all over again and again and again and again... you get the picture. So please sticky this. Pretty please with sugar on?
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:33 PM #5
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mods please sticky this its a very helpful thread and may reduce the garbage threads that pop up about chopping

also, when you say reduce the hopper type settings you mean like on and 05 speed when your in the menu and the top led is blinking orange put it to 2 or 3 instead of 4?
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:40 PM #6
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nice post...needs a sticky
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:41 PM #7
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Very nice, do sticky.
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:50 PM #8
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Do flys typically need the valve spring cut to work with the 50/200 setting?

Also, exactly how much should you cut it if need be?

Thanks
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:56 PM #9
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Yes, but not always.
I usually cut off about 1/3 of the length. Make sure to bend the end flat so it looks like before it was cut.
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:01 PM #10
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oh ok, thanks for the tip. I think I'll try this out on my fly tomorrow.
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:19 PM #11
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fargbollen can you answer my question too? its post #5
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:03 AM #12
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--This would be deserving of a sticky if you listed all of the recomended settings for each of the Angels. Have a chart that people can quickly look at and see how they should change their G7, Speed 05 or Fly.
--Should include pictures of a cut spring next to a stock spring.
--Should include links to RAS/Jambolt
--Should include a list of what NOT to do (stretch detent springs?)
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:31 AM #13
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please sticky.
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:24 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by skvarda
fargbollen can you answer my question too? its post #5
The answer to your original question is yes.

At the flashing orange menu, one green LED means Slow hopper, this is very high BIP delay, 4 LEDs means a very Fast hopper type and results in a very short BIP delay.
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Old 04-06-2005, 02:08 PM #15
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i use a halo B and had it on the fast force feed hopper setting. got breaks. then i tried the force feed one, still some breaks.
now its on the 12v setting, not one break in 2 cases. the BIP time works. if ur getting breaks higher it.
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Old 04-06-2005, 03:29 PM #16
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Great thread, sounds like hte problem I was having. Thanks a lot!

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Old 04-06-2005, 04:07 PM #17
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This sounds great, but a few issues have to be resolved before I can sticky this thread. Everything sounds great up to the point where people have to cut the valve spring. That creates a type of problem that I would rather not explain... because you know how it is, explaining a problem will create new problems. So in other words, that part about cutting the spring is a big nono. Instead of me being a party pooper, I'll try my best to do my part in supporting your idea...

1. Consider selling a Farbowling "No More Ballbreaks!!!" low pressure kit with various tension valve springs. This way, people can try different springs to get the best efficiency.
*your original suggestion that people cut their own springs can lead to major. with no specific measurements on how far into the spring to cut, people who cut too far, will hoss their Angel WMDs and suffer from major gas inefficiency, just like them Matrix/DM4 hogs.
2. I will buy one of your Farbowlin "NMB!!!" kits, test it out, shoot great amounts of paintballs per air fill, then give your product a thumbs up , AND get you a FOUR-Star seal of approval from 5-star __ Army General Anson.
3. uhm...... can't think of a third reason.

Sell the kit and you will have covered all the bases.

botomline... no go with them spring cuttings, but good info all around! If you don't believe me about this issue "liability", then feel free to email the AngelMachinegun makers and ask them if it's a good idea to encourage random AngelWMD users to start cutting their springs.


I like the part about setting the Ball In Place delay. Not enough people know how important it is to remember to change the settings everytime they switch to a different paintball loading system. I always switch from SuperFast for Hollabacks to Fast for Eggolutions.
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Old 04-06-2005, 04:28 PM #18
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nice post, i vote sicky worthy, we need more of these and less of all the other threads theat are meaningless.


nice job Fargbollen
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Old 04-06-2005, 04:35 PM #19
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ft57 makes an stong point

and a good business venture for anyone with the time
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:04 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by ft57
botomline... no go with them spring cuttings, but good info all around! If you don't believe me about this issue "liability", then feel free to email the AngelMachinegun makers and ask them if it's a good idea to encourage random AngelWMD users to start cutting their springs.
Well I could have asked Mat last weekend at that rock party...
Seriously, so this is why the thread isn't a sticky yet? I mean, I can just take that part of the text out. Most later model angels can be set to about 50/200 psi or just over that without cutting anything and it's not absolutely necessary to take the pressure down anyway.
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:08 PM #21
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How about I use my valve spring that came with my Spyder valve? Its about 2/3s as long as the stock one and its a lot lighter.

Very sticky worthy thread by the way.
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