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Old 11-14-2001, 03:00 PM #1
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Cocker Low Pressure? Is it a real vantage?

I'm confuse about this!
I' new in Cocker world and thought to make a custom cocker low pressure, to avoid chopping balls and to get more efficiency per tank.
But isit a real vantage?
What are the vantages and disavantages of Low pressure set up??

Thanks guys!!!
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Old 11-14-2001, 03:20 PM #2
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The word is A-D-V-A-N-T-A-G-E. Now then, making an autococker LP just for the sake of being LP is stupid. There's no difference in range or accuracy. You may have to SLOW your rate of fire, if your equipment starves at high flow rates.

The thing to do is go for efficiency. LP and efficiency, contrary to popular belief, are NOT the same thing - look at the Shocker if you want an example. LP is usually a result of efficiency, but I've also seen AMAZINGLY efficient cockers running at over 500 psi. Low Pressure will make your gun a little quieter, and it's a little easier on paint. That's about it.

Hope that helps a little.

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Old 11-14-2001, 11:56 PM #3
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I agree about the efficiency part. But low pressure pneumatics really do help the gun not to chop.
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Old 11-15-2001, 12:00 AM #4
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Pneumatics have little (if anything) to do with not choping paint. If you don't want to chop you need to pay very close attention to your springs as well as how heavy your hammer is.

You don't chop when your cocking pressure is very low. Mind you.. I said COCKING pressure..
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Old 11-15-2001, 12:14 AM #5
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yea

exactly your cocking pressure which has to do with your front reg.
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Old 11-15-2001, 06:52 AM #6
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can anyone recommend a spring combo to start with using the macdev red valve. im not shooting for an exact pressure/velocity combo. just an idea to start with and build from there as this will be my first attempt at playing with the valve springs in my gun.

thanks guys
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Old 11-15-2001, 08:56 AM #7
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IMO LP is totally worth it because using my shocktech cocker last night i didnt chop anything out of half a case and i know i short stroked atleast once

it just stops on balls instead of chopping them.
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Old 11-15-2001, 09:50 AM #8
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Cockerdawg....

And..? If your gun is set up properly and sprung correctly you can use ANY pneumatic reg...

As I said.. it doesn't matter what type of pneumatic reg you use, because not chopping paint has NOTHING to do with what type of reg your using.

Not chopping has EVERYTHING to do with the resistance of your mainspring.

Think about it logically.... what directly affects how much you have to turn up your pneumatic reg?

How much resistance your mainspring is putting out is what makes you have to turn up your pneumatic reg.

If you make it so your mainspring is as light as possible... then it will be easier for your pneumatic reg (any type) to recock your gun.

So... we can say without a doubt that your choice of pneumatic reg has nothing to do with the amount of resistance that your mainspring is putting out.

If you can give me a logical arguement as to HOW your choice of pneumatic reg is related to your mainspring resistance then you are truly an amazing person.
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Old 11-15-2001, 10:51 AM #9
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I didn't say that

I didn't say that it made a difference of what kind like palmers ANS etc. I just meant that aftermarket pneumatics will help your gun to not chop. Especially the adjustable regs. Yea, of course you can do it with the stock reg but it's not as convinient. If you have an externally adjustable reg, ANY KIND, then you can lower your cocking pressure, in turn keeps the gun from chopping. Also the ram makes a difference. The better the ram is, the less pressure it will require to cock. But really it's the reg that keeps your gun from chopping.
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Old 11-15-2001, 11:23 AM #10
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The lighter your mainspring is the less force it takes to recock the gun. An adjustable pneumatic reg just makes it easier to adjust your recocking pressure. A nice ram makes it smoother...

A light mainspring makes it easier to recock the gun thus requiring less pressure from the pneumatic reg which in turn means less pressure in you ram.

put that all together and your gun won't chop.

But all the magic happens with your springs..
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Old 11-15-2001, 11:33 AM #11
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i kno how not 2 chop!!!

if ur scared of choppin,open da wallet and buy a hinge,problem solved :-) as 4 the low pressure,screw that,keep it as is,they run at wut like 400-500psi any waymthats rather low 2 me
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Old 11-15-2001, 12:36 PM #12
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The idea that it's impossible to chop/short-stroke with a
pivot /swing frame is a MYTH!

Please don't spread misinformation.

Any mechanical marker can be made to short-stroke if you don't pull the trigger correctly.

Some people have an easier time shooting a pivoting frame; others prefer sliding triggers. Preference, experience and shooting style dictate which frame is appropriate.


Later,
B.
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Old 11-15-2001, 12:49 PM #13
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If any mechanical marker can be made to short stroke please explan how a spyder or any blowback can be shortstroked. I think what you meant was any mechanical gun with a multi stage trigger can be made to short stroke.
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Old 11-15-2001, 01:42 PM #14
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nuthutl,

You're right, for the most part.
I should have been more clear in that I was speaking mostly about cockers and mags. Both of which can be short-stroked easily if one isn't familiar with the trigger.

Spiders and the like are very(VERY) difficult to short-stroke. I'm the manager at the Velocity field(and pull double duty as the gun tech), and our rental guns are Piranhas (which are functionally identical to Spiders). People have actually been known to short-stroke them from time to time. When this happens, it's largely due to a mechanical error (such as the spring within the trigger assembly failing or the sear being a bit worn).

As I said, it's exceedingly difficult to short-stroke them. But as we know, nothing is idiot-proof!

Mainly I'm just tired of people telling folks that going to a pivot frame on a cocker will prevent them from short-stroking, which is patently untrue.


Later,
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Old 11-15-2001, 02:11 PM #15
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Well I own a store and I see those same problems alot too. I'm not sure why companies can't seem to make a product, and then use it before they sell it.
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Old 11-15-2001, 02:21 PM #16
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That would make sense, my friend.
But you know, all that boring product testing...it just adds to the time before they can start making a profit on it!

That reminds me of the PMI gun (I want to say it was a new Tracer{sp?} but don't hold me to that). Anyway, whole thing, except for the barrel, springs, and pins, was plastic. Even the sear! I completely undertand the need for entry level markers, but come on! A plastic sear? That's just shoddy.

OK...we've gotten completely off topic.

Later,
B.
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Old 11-15-2001, 04:12 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arawn
Spiders and the like are very(VERY) difficult to short-stroke. I'm the manager at the Velocity field(and pull double duty as the gun tech), and our rental guns are Piranhas (which are functionally identical to Spiders). People have actually been known to short-stroke them from time to time. When this happens, it's largely due to a mechanical error (such as the spring within the trigger assembly failing or the sear being a bit worn).

I don't get it, how is it possible to short stroke a blowback? The worst that could happen is that you would get full-auto (which isn't such a bad thing --unless you don't have a motorized loader, then that could be bad....)

On that note, since I don't understand how mags work that well either, how does short stroking cause a negative effect there? I suppose if you don't pull the trigger the whole way, the hammer fails to travel far enough forward, causing the the gun not to fire, forcing a second ball to half-load?
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Old 11-15-2001, 04:20 PM #18
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Man, this chopping topic seems like re-occuring nightmare.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...threadid=32848

Back on topic. Yeah, what Conqueror said. Crazy how those phantoms can get 40+ shots out of a 12 gram running at 800 psi eh?

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Old 11-16-2001, 03:12 PM #19
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The wizard returns...

Thanks for the support, Yochi.

Now, then. There are a bunch of fallacies in this thread, and I'd like to correct them.

First: people seem to think that cocking pressure and operating pressure are the same thing. When someone talks about making their cocker LP, people tend to start talking about how not to chop paint. These two things are not the same. They are related, but only in that low operating pressure leads to low cocking presure - you have to lower OP first (by lightening the mainspring). Try, people, to understand the question that is being asked. If someone talks about "getting more efficiency", don't bring up the LPR pressure. That can be discussed elsewhere; it's not what is being asked.

Second: several people seem to think that lower operating pressure is the ONLY thing that makes their gun easy on paint. This is untrue. LPR pressure, spring tensions, paint-barrel match, and numerous other factors all contribute to a gun that doesn't break paint. This is why there were cockers in the old days that didn't break paint, even though "LP" back then meant "sub-600 psi."

Third: PFN... Automags do not have hammers. Short stroking occurs on a mag when the trigger is either incorrectly pulled or incorrectly released. This can cause a multitude of problems, such as incomplete gas release or too-short recharge time. If an Automag half-fed a paintball, it would almost certainly chop. They are notoriously hard on half-fed paint, because the bolt is closed with 450 psi, as opposed to 50-100 psi as with most cockers.

Fourth: This has kinda been addressed already, but I want to add my two cents. Adding a hinge trigger DOES NOT HELP CHOPPING AT ALL!!! The only thing a hinge trigger frame changes is which way the 3-way rod is pushed/pulled. The hammer still drops off the sear, the three-way still switches back and forth, and the ram still runs with the same force. Period. The only way a hinge might make you chop less is if you short-stroke a lot, but very few people who have had their cockers more than a month or two have this problem.


That's all for now, kiddies. Sleep tight, and don't let the bedbugs bite!!!

CQ
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Old 11-16-2001, 04:12 PM #20
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umm..I agreed with everything you said but I have to correct something. When people say they want to buy a hinge so they will break less paint they are talking about short stroking. Buying a hinge will lessen your chances of short stroking, which in turn gives you less breaks. They dont actually beleive slapping on a trigger frame will change the gun internally to stop ball chops
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Old 11-16-2001, 05:50 PM #21
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What?

Was someone implying that paintballers would be silly enough to think that simply switching to a hinge trigger would be enough to keep them from short-stroking and/or chopping with their cockers?

Get real! That would be almost as silly as believing that one type of marker intrinsically shoots farther than another!
I mean who would think that?

...oh yeah, people DO believe that stuff, don't they?




And as Conqueror said, Mags can most definitely be short-stroke! Take it from a recovered mag-user (and now happy parent of a beautiful cocker) that those pesky little on-offs in the AIR valve can most assuredly be made to short-stroke

Later,
B.
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