I have been a member of pbnation since July 2002, which is probably longer than 80% of your staff. I have also noticed that my favorite forum, ST...ahem, OT:Automobiles is one of the most active on the site (top 5 at least, probably higher) which is why it is so much fun. I also know that PBN is a free site that makes a lot of its money off of advertising revenue. I am no expert on running an internet site, but it seems like more traffic equals more people seeing ads which equals more top line ad revenue for pbnation. Therefore I am perplexed why this forum is yet again villified. You would think, having such a group of loyal posters, you would want them to be more happy and try and encourage them to purchase your ASM membership and make more money. However instead you choose to constantly villify these members.
Moving on to other points. I understand your comments about the posting style of some members. In the past, I would have considered myself one of said "problem posters." But that was 2 years or more ago, when Katsumoru was around. Last time you went on one of these Anti-STA power trips I made it a point to try and modify my posting style and generally be more helpful and courteous on all of pbnation, not only STA. Do I still occasionally flame people? Yes, I do. This is the internet, you're never going to eliminate it completely. However, I don't think I have had an infraction since the last time the pbn modship went into a collective moodswing.
Last time I posted, I forget if it was in this forum, or in STA itself my thoughts on this issue, and until you guys actually do what you say you are going to do, you will continue to have problems. This is not a threat. I haven't been a problem in a while, and I won't be in the future. However, as I said before, the problem is not the GDT. That you can be absolutely certain of. Why does every other forum function with a GDT without you nuking it every few months? From that observation, you can be sure that the GDT itself is not the problem, as it functions all over the site. You could make the argument that certain users are the problem. That is simply taking the easy way out and trying to offload blame. The real problem is the lack of effective moderation in STA. The past two times you nuked the GDT and put STA on lockdown, myself and fellow regulars complained that the reason people get flamed is an ineffective means of controlling trolls by the modship. We explained that because the moderators fail miserably at keeping trolls in check, we felt the need to attempt to controll them by flaming them. You told us to report them and you'd take care of it. I hadn't reported anyone in the first 5 years or so on the nation, but I have made a lot of reports since you told us to start doing it. You have completely failed to hold up your side of the bargain. You continue to allow trolls, (example - forgotten soup) to remain in the forum. Many of us have reported many of his posts and he might get an infraction or a 3 day temp, but he just comes back on his other account, trolls for three days on that account, and then his old one comes back.
I propose a system of stricter infractions when a user already has one account on temp. If you have been temped, you should be heading the warning and toning it down.
I also propose you actually get a half decent moderator to watch the forum on a regular basis. Make it someone who has half a clue about automobiles. Froth, who seems to be the guy you have chosen now, seems like a good choice. I was pleased to see him step in a few days ago and start to control the forum, however I was dissapointed when after 2 days you closed the GDT. In the past, there were serious infractions to cause the GDT to be suspended. Now it seemed like it was predetermined. Even before Froth came in it seems as though you had your mind made up you were going to lay the smack down on STA again. However, this must be done properly. I know froth, as he has been around forever (I remember the froth viking trigger, that was a long time ago) but I haven't seen him make more than 10 posts in STA before the past week. And you're talking to a guy with a good memory and probably 40,000 posts in STA. If Froth is able to do what no moderator has been able to do in the past (that is remain active in the forum) it could go a long way to solving the problem. Froth has been quite fair from what I have seen thus far, and that is the most important characteristic I would want in an STA mod.
Finally, you have a very useful tool in your arsenal that I believe is underused: warnings. Because of the lack of a presence of a moderator, the regulars aren't really sure how to behave. I raised this point 6 months ago when you did this, but you took no action to correct the problem. You need to have a more active modship who uses the warnings so that the regulars understand what you want them to do and what you do not want them to do. I know you hate hearing that some members deserve different treatment than others, but I believe that a user who has contributed to the site for a long time wants to remain here and I think a warning would be effective against that user. A user who joined 3 days ago and already has three infractions is not the same as a user who joined a year ago and has 3. If a user continues to ignore the warnings, then you can use an infraction, or ban.
What you do currently is skip directly to two point infractions for minor offenses. I have a couple that are extremely lame. Calling someone stupid is a 2 point infraction? Really? Don't you think a warning would have sufficed? Then you have other users that troll all the time and never seem to get permed. You also neglect the forum for months, then decide you don't like the way it's acting and bring the hammer down on everybody all at once. This is vastly unfair. Many people like the GDT, why punish everyone for the actions of a few?
Thank you for taking the time to read my points. I have spent a reasonable amount of time thinking about, and typing this post. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for the respect of a well thought out response that addresses all of my points. Your way has not worked yet. Maybe you could try my way.
Thank you again for the time,
Pete (Featherlite 07)
__________________ FEATHERLITEInvented Swagger.
Last edited by Featherlite : 10-10-2009 at 02:55 PM.
I appreciate that the regular ST:A members are unset because that we have closed the GDT in that forum.
Look we really want the majority of posters and PbN members to have an excellent experience while visiting PbN.
Every forum on PbN has a unique cultural signature and personality, as they should have. And for the most part members of a particular forum work together to help those that are new to a forum. This is what makes you feel good because you helped someone new and makes the new person feel welcome and like they should return the favor down the road when they become more experienced.
However when any particular PbN forum turns snarky, mean or unhelpful it becomes problematic and something that cannot be supported by PbN members or staff.
As a community we need to become better at helping new members whenever we can.
GDTs are not a fixed feature of any forum but are allowed as a privilege to those forums that are following the accepted norms for their sections and the TOS for PbNation.
No one on the staff sides wants to eliminate GDTs as they can be a source of some interesting posts and a fun place to get to know other members. We need to protect these GDTs by eliminating those snarky pests that only make themselves feel good at the expense of others. Perhaps a lofty goal but something I think every PbN member can participate in by helping new posters, reducing the snarky comments and working together with members and staff in a positive manner.
Help us get the A:GDT opened back up by eliminating the crap and improving ST:A as a whole.
Thanks again for your continued support.
All the best,
The Team at PbNation
__________________
If you need to contact us direct, please use the contact us link at the bottom of any PbNation page.
Yes, I saw that post already. That post does not address any of the issues I raised, but only strengthens what I have said. Especially this portion of the post:
No one on the staff sides wants to eliminate GDTs as they can be a source of some interesting posts and a fun place to get to know other members. We need to protect these GDTs by eliminating those snarky pests that only make themselves feel good at the expense of others.
Exactly! However your strategy does not accomplish this goal. How does closing the GDT eliminate pests? It does not. None of those pests are banned. They simply wait for the GDT to reopen. Removing the GDT punishes everyone equally for the negative actions of a few. It does nothing to eliminate the problem. It only shows people that you, the staff, feels there is a problem. Ok, message received. That message has been received for a while. Now what actions are you going to take to actually address the roots of the problem?
Again, I would appreciate a response that addresses the points I have raised, not an automated re-quoting of a message we've already seen.
I have been a member of pbnation since July 2002, which is probably longer than 80% of your staff. I have also noticed that my favorite forum, ST...ahem, OT:Automobiles is one of the most active on the site (top 5 at least, probably higher) which is why it is so much fun. I also know that PBN is a free site that makes a lot of its money off of advertising revenue. I am no expert on running an internet site, but it seems like more traffic equals more people seeing ads which equals more top line ad revenue for pbnation. Therefore I am perplexed why this forum is yet again villified. You would think, having such a group of loyal posters, you would want them to be more happy and try and encourage them to purchase your ASM membership and make more money. However instead you choose to constantly villify these members.
Moving on to other points. I understand your comments about the posting style of some members. In the past, I would have considered myself one of said "problem posters." But that was 2 years or more ago, when Katsumoru was around. Last time you went on one of these Anti-STA power trips I made it a point to try and modify my posting style and generally be more helpful and courteous on all of pbnation, not only STA. Do I still occasionally flame people? Yes, I do. This is the internet, you're never going to eliminate it completely. However, I don't think I have had an infraction since the last time the pbn modship went into a collective moodswing.
Last time I posted, I forget if it was in this forum, or in STA itself my thoughts on this issue, and until you guys actually do what you say you are going to do, you will continue to have problems. This is not a threat. I haven't been a problem in a while, and I won't be in the future. However, as I said before, the problem is not the GDT. That you can be absolutely certain of. Why does every other forum function with a GDT without you nuking it every few months? From that observation, you can be sure that the GDT itself is not the problem, as it functions all over the site. You could make the argument that certain users are the problem. That is simply taking the easy way out and trying to offload blame. The real problem is the lack of effective moderation in STA. The past two times you nuked the GDT and put STA on lockdown, myself and fellow regulars complained that the reason people get flamed is an ineffective means of controlling trolls by the modship. We explained that because the moderators fail miserably at keeping trolls in check, we felt the need to attempt to controll them by flaming them. You told us to report them and you'd take care of it. I hadn't reported anyone in the first 5 years or so on the nation, but I have made a lot of reports since you told us to start doing it. You have completely failed to hold up your side of the bargain. You continue to allow trolls, (example - forgotten soup) to remain in the forum. Many of us have reported many of his posts and he might get an infraction or a 3 day temp, but he just comes back on his other account, trolls for three days on that account, and then his old one comes back.
I propose a system of stricter infractions when a user already has one account on temp. If you have been temped, you should be heading the warning and toning it down.
I also propose you actually get a half decent moderator to watch the forum on a regular basis. Make it someone who has half a clue about automobiles. Froth, who seems to be the guy you have chosen now, seems like a good choice. I was pleased to see him step in a few days ago and start to control the forum, however I was dissapointed when after 2 days you closed the GDT. In the past, there were serious infractions to cause the GDT to be suspended. Now it seemed like it was predetermined. Even before Froth came in it seems as though you had your mind made up you were going to lay the smack down on STA again. However, this must be done properly. I know froth, as he has been around forever (I remember the froth viking trigger, that was a long time ago) but I haven't seen him make more than 10 posts in STA before the past week. And you're talking to a guy with a good memory and probably 40,000 posts in STA. If Froth is able to do what no moderator has been able to do in the past (that is remain active in the forum) it could go a long way to solving the problem. Froth has been quite fair from what I have seen thus far, and that is the most important characteristic I would want in an STA mod.
Finally, you have a very useful tool in your arsenal that I believe is underused: warnings. Because of the lack of a presence of a moderator, the regulars aren't really sure how to behave. I raised this point 6 months ago when you did this, but you took no action to correct the problem. You need to have a more active modship who uses the warnings so that the regulars understand what you want them to do and what you do not want them to do. I know you hate hearing that some members deserve different treatment than others, but I believe that a user who has contributed to the site for a long time wants to remain here and I think a warning would be effective against that user. A user who joined 3 days ago and already has three infractions is not the same as a user who joined a year ago and has 3. If a user continues to ignore the warnings, then you can use an infraction, or ban.
What you do currently is skip directly to two point infractions for minor offenses. I have a couple that are extremely lame. Calling someone stupid is a 2 point infraction? Really? Don't you think a warning would have sufficed? Then you have other users that troll all the time and never seem to get permed. You also neglect the forum for months, then decide you don't like the way it's acting and bring the hammer down on everybody all at once. This is vastly unfair. Many people like the GDT, why punish everyone for the actions of a few?
Thank you for taking the time to read my points. I have spent a reasonable amount of time thinking about, and typing this post. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for the respect of a well thought out response that addresses all of my points. Your way has not worked yet. Maybe you could try my way.
Thank you again for the time,
Pete (Featherlite 07)
Thank you for using the correct approach to the subject at hand rather than flailing about in a hurried panic at the loss of the GDT, First and foremost I will answer what I believe to be the most prominent thing you stated about the GDT.
Closing the GDT was 100% my idea, Blame it all on me. I've been watching the GDT for over a Week and the posting habits and general demeanor of the posters Actually carried over from the GDT into other threads in an attempt to seemingly amuse each other in some sort of twisted manner. I like to work on a Reward system personally...and To get EVERYONEs attention I believe something drastic has to be done. Closing the GDT was just that drastic measure that did the trick, Now EVERYONE is aware of what is going on and what is at stake. I warned the GDT more than once that it would be closed and even actively posted in it a few times, each time I was met with nothing but lack of respect except from one or two Users.
I know, I mentioned a Reward System. Well...the Reward is the continuation of the GDT being allowed again, once things shape up. This is not going to be an overnight change. This could take a week, weeks, a month or longer until people get the point that this is not going to blow over and things are not going to change back.
As far as infractions are concerned, Be it as you may see it...calling a user stupid IS insulting them. Granted thought it is up to the moderator/admin at the time of the infraction as to the severity be it a warning or true infraction. I do my best to not do this, I reserve two point infractions for things that logically need them and call for them. Lately, the largest infractions I have been giving are One Pointers for "Inappropriate Content" when someone decides to try use a smart answer and not actually answer a users question in the OT:Automobiles forum. I could very easily issue a trolling/instigating infraction but in most cases that is not necessary.
As far as the Moderator of OT:A is concerned, I chose that forum myself. I am an ASE Certified Mechanic, I have worked on vehicles my entire life and make a good living as a mechanic, I have an extensive knowledge base of all types of vehicles. One thing that irks me more than ANYTHING else is people who blatantly display their complete lack of a willingness to help others. This is the main reason I want to change OT:A... I try to be as fair as possible, I know very well when someone is purposefully trying to be unhelpful or bend the rules or take a shot at me and the way I run things.
I am trying to be as fair as humanly possible across the board, You will not see a day without me stepping foot into OT:A for quite some time. It is under constant supervision.
Closing the GDT was 100% my idea, Blame it all on me. I've been watching the GDT for over a Week and the posting habits and general demeanor of the posters Actually carried over from the GDT into other threads in an attempt to seemingly amuse each other in some sort of twisted manner. I like to work on a Reward system personally...and To get EVERYONEs attention I believe something drastic has to be done. Closing the GDT was just that drastic measure that did the trick, Now EVERYONE is aware of what is going on and what is at stake. I warned the GDT more than once that it would be closed and even actively posted in it a few times, each time I was met with nothing but lack of respect except from one or two Users.
I don't mind that theory. Take away the GDT just to get everyone's attention and make it known that change is necessary - fine. However, that's been done before on at least two occasions. The question is what will be done going forward. What has been done in the past has not worked. I am hoping that this time it will be fixed properly so we don't have to go through this every 6 months. Once is drastic, but after 3+ times it's getting pretty old for me. What's happened in the past is that STA is ignored for months, then all of the sudden the mods decide they don't like how it is carrying on, and they nuke it and close the GDT. Then they begin infracting and banning everyone for the most trivial of posts for like 2 weeks to "send a message." Then they leave and it goes back to chaos. Posts are reported. Reports are ignored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froth
I know, I mentioned a Reward System. Well...the Reward is the continuation of the GDT being allowed again, once things shape up. This is not going to be an overnight change. This could take a week, weeks, a month or longer until people get the point that this is not going to blow over and things are not going to change back.
The length of time that the GDT is suspended has zero influence on whether or not it will change back. The only thing that will ensure it doesn't change back is proper and continued moderation. That does not mean ultra-strict moderation. It just means the same level of moderation in every other forum that actually has active mods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froth
As far as infractions are concerned, Be it as you may see it...calling a user stupid IS insulting them. Granted thought it is up to the moderator/admin at the time of the infraction as to the severity be it a warning or true infraction. I do my best to not do this, I reserve two point infractions for things that logically need them and call for them. Lately, the largest infractions I have been giving are One Pointers for "Inappropriate Content" when someone decides to try use a smart answer and not actually answer a users question in the OT:Automobiles forum. I could very easily issue a trolling/instigating infraction but in most cases that is not necessary.
Yes, it technically is. It also happens in every other area of the site millions of times a day. Rules are obviously up to some interpretation. As a user you look at precedent to determine what is allowed and what is not. When the precedents are totally destroyed in order to "send a message" and go ultra strict by the letter of the rules, it's simply annoying. Don't do that. Solve the actual problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froth
As far as the Moderator of OT:A is concerned, I chose that forum myself. I am an ASE Certified Mechanic, I have worked on vehicles my entire life and make a good living as a mechanic, I have an extensive knowledge base of all types of vehicles. One thing that irks me more than ANYTHING else is people who blatantly display their complete lack of a willingness to help others. This is the main reason I want to change OT:A... I try to be as fair as possible, I know very well when someone is purposefully trying to be unhelpful or bend the rules or take a shot at me and the way I run things.
I don't question your qualifications to be moderator of STA. It's an easy job. You just have to be around a lot. Like I said, if you stay around I think you are up to the task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froth
I am trying to be as fair as humanly possible across the board, You will not see a day without me stepping foot into OT:A for quite some time. It is under constant supervision.
