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Old 07-09-2014, 04:13 PM #1
Jaccen
 
 
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Mechanical FEP Quest

Spit-balling here. If this is TLDR for ya, please just skip to the Q's at teh bottom. Sorry if this is in the wrong section.



There's been a few people place different frames on Quests.

Ie.
Ego Quest
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3440693

Dye UL Quest
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...611&highlight=

Timmy 2k2 Quest
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...4#post79553804


Great as those are, they're still electronic. I'm more of a mech guy as, yes, I am that dolt at the field who's always forgetting to charge his 9volts

I posted those links as they all seem to make use of a manifold to hook up the solenoid. Specifically, the E2 Autococker one:

Manifold
http://paintballgateway.com/pleceb2e2som.html

Gasket
http://paintballgateway.com/wgpauebcosom.html


I think it's safe to say that we've all seen the excellent mech kits for the Ion by Y0da900 and Deathwish_DW:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...e-thread*.html

Their kit has been stated to only work with Ion bolts that close off the dump chamber:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/1966957-post14.html

Ie. the way a stock Ion works:
http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...perrender3.gif


As I understand it, the Quest also cuts off the dump chamber when the bolt is fully forward and the LPR line is used to cycle the bolt.
http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/quest1.gif



Questions:

So, with all that being said:

1. Would one not be able to use a similar kit to DW's/Yoda's in a Quest? It would use the LPR pressure from up front to go to the 3 way and the 3way outputs would cycle the bolt back and forth. It seems like it would give it a very light trigger pull (ie. LPR psi instead of the single HPR psi like in the Ion mechs). Or would one experience wild velocity swings/air loss? Ie. no electronic control of dwell so the bolt stays forward too long.

2. If it would work, what would be some considerations? It seems like longer hose lengths might be a bit of a problem. Would QEV's at/near the manifold to aid in bolt movement help? Would they be feasible? I ask because the Quest LPR was not known as a stellar performer unless the Juit mod was done.

3. If not the traditional 3way, what about the FABCO MSV-2 method like that of the Pneumag or this impressive homebrew Ion?

Pneumag
http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...eumag_5fps.gif

Ion
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3890320

The reason I ask is because it seems like every few months a Quest pops up where the electronics are shot and people don't want the hassle of tracking down a used board or don't like using the UTB for whatever reason.

Any input greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 07-09-2014, 05:24 PM #2
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You'd need a 4/5-way valve (like the contradictorily named 'cocker "3-way"), not a 3-way. A QEV would be very hard to mount to the manifold but it will help somewhat if you can manage it (the barb threads on the manifold are too small to accommodate your average 10-32 threaded QEV, though maybe you could get away with using an '06 ego QEV ,those are 8-32 or 6-32 if I'm not mistaken); you'll also need to devolumize the dump chamber if you want to have any semblance of efficiency.
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Old 07-09-2014, 05:26 PM #3
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Looks to me like DW/Yodas mech kit would work if you could sort out the manifold issue
Irrc my teammates Quests were very similar to an Ion with a Hollowpoint bolt in operation.Some really awesome shooting guns although some bolts were fragile
Believe Ydnas of ZDS had some part in the Quests design also,maybe hit him up on Facebook for advice
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Old 07-09-2014, 06:26 PM #4
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The mech ion kit wouldn't work, thing is the quest is a balanced spool, where the ion is an unbalanced spool where the bolt is always biased forward with air holding it back; that's how you can get away with using a normally closed 3-way valve on it for the mech kit. With the quest, you'll need the 4/5-way so you can control the fore stroke and the return stroke.

And I will also echo that you talk to Ydna, Lurker27 or ironyusa regarding this, any of them can be of great help.

Last edited by tacxplosion : 07-09-2014 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:16 PM #5
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:13 PM #6
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When I mech'd my Ion without a QEV, it was trivially easy to short stroke it. It is very easy to pull the trigger and release it faster than the bolt can cycle forwards, so unless you're very deliberate with trigger pulls I'd say incorporating a QEV of some kind is a necessity.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:34 PM #7
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So, at it's simplest, one could think of the Quest bolt as a cocker ram? Thus, a cocker style 4 way should work?

If a QEV is too large, there are other ways to achieve the venting. I believe Spitlebug posted a while back about the idea of using shuttle valves as an inline QEV of sorts.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_valve

Any body have any recommendations on shuttle valves for something like this?

I believe the dump chamber could be devolumized relatively easy using something similar to Juit's method of placing macroline on the bolt stem for his mod.

bballryand316, are you making and selling those? Or are you already attempting this?

I'm not opposed to contacting those people listed. I'd just like to have something a bit more concrete before bothering them.

Thanks all.
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Last edited by Jaccen : 07-10-2014 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:18 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaccen View Post
So, at it's simplest, one could think of the Quest bolt as a cocker ram? Thus, a cocker style 4 way should work?

If a QEV is too large, there are other ways to achieve the venting. I believe Spitlebug posted a while back about the idea of using shuttle valves as an inline QEV of sorts.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_valve

Any body have any recommendations on shuttle valves for something like this?

I believe the dump chamber could be devolumized relatively easy using something similar to Juit's method of placing macroline on the bolt stem for his mod.

bballryand316, are you making and selling those? Or are you already attempting this?

I'm not opposed to contacting those people listed. I'd just like to have something a bit more concrete before bothering them.

Thanks all.
Yes, you could use a 'cocker 4-way, a shocktech bomb would probably work best because of the shorter throw; if you could rig it with a spring return, that probably work even better.

Sounds like a shuttle valve could work, I've never worked with them though, so I can't really say.

As far as devolumizing, you could use the "tape mod" (original way of devolumizing a quest).
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Old 07-11-2014, 06:19 PM #9
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Contrary to what has been said, you can use a 3-way without a problem on a Quest.

Unlike a Shocker or Matrix, the Quest does not have equal surface area on each side of the bolt sail. Supply constant air to the front (bolt retract) port from the LPR, and use a normally closed 3-way to cycle air to the rear (bolt forward) port. Imagine it cycling exactly the same way the bolts do on my closed bolt Ion conversions with constant air to the front and intermittent air behind it controlling the position. If it had a balanced sail area (opposed to just a balanced firing chamber) it would require a 4-way.

With the sealed dump chamber you should have fine efficiency and consistency provided the trigger is set up in a way to prevent short stroking.

Eliminates the need for a QEV as the front area does not vent at all.
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Old 07-11-2014, 06:34 PM #10
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Well there ya go, this project just got a lot easier.
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:29 AM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y0da900 View Post
Contrary to what has been said, you can use a 3-way without a problem on a Quest.

Unlike a Shocker or Matrix, the Quest does not have equal surface area on each side of the bolt sail. Supply constant air to the front (bolt retract) port from the LPR, and use a normally closed 3-way to cycle air to the rear (bolt forward) port. Imagine it cycling exactly the same way the bolts do on my closed bolt Ion conversions with constant air to the front and intermittent air behind it controlling the position. If it had a balanced sail area (opposed to just a balanced firing chamber) it would require a 4-way.

With the sealed dump chamber you should have fine efficiency and consistency provided the trigger is set up in a way to prevent short stroking.

Eliminates the need for a QEV as the front area does not vent at all.
Honest question: Is the difference in area big enough that there wouldn't be considerable lag from actuation to actually shooting?

Or maybe I was thinking too close to electro dwell being applied, when dwell will be much higher (depending on the type of valve that's used).
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:52 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacxplosion View Post
Honest question: Is the difference in area big enough that there wouldn't be considerable lag from actuation to actually shooting?

Or maybe I was thinking too close to electro dwell being applied, when dwell will be much higher (depending on the type of valve that's used).
Nothing that couldn't be compensated for with a higher LPR pressure. Back sail area minus front sail area times pressure equals forward force with a 3 way setup. In a 4way setup it is just back sail area times pressure equals force. So you can putz with the pressure to get the same resultant force and similar bolt speeds. Ignoring some aspects such as the front area vent rate, but close enough for practical purposes.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:41 PM #13
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I am going to disagree with y0da based primarily on some of my recent musings and experience. That front area will compress somewhat to make an air spring toward the end of the stroke that will make a pretty flow-critical actuation system and somewhat erratic valve resolution. Basically, you're guaranteed to get some oscillations.

You could do some type of full-time charge for the bolt with the back being supplied LP air and the front section getting HP air. Then you could vent it like a traditional decreasing force system with a much more predictable valve resolution. I really haven't given this too much thought because I generally loathe the idea of mechanical spool valves.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:55 PM #14
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So just set up the air from the LPR to split into the front of the bolt sail and the trigger valve. That way the air in front of the sail and behind the sail are part of the same resevoir when you open the trigger valve, which should negate any sort of compression issues in front of the bolt sail. You could even set it up like the Insight, where the input from the LPR is cut off when you pull the trigger, and the air in front of the sail is routed to the rear of the sail so it's isolated from the LPR.


Also, mech spool valves rule.
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:22 PM #15
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Both of the two ideas above seem like they'd work.

If you want to put HP in front of the bolt, you could just remove the middle oring on the bolt and plug the body where air is fed to the front of the bolt sail.

If you want to use LP on both sides, you could just use a tee fitting.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:08 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
I am going to disagree with y0da based primarily on some of my recent musings and experience. That front area will compress somewhat to make an air spring toward the end of the stroke that will make a pretty flow-critical actuation system and somewhat erratic valve resolution. Basically, you're guaranteed to get some oscillations.

You could do some type of full-time charge for the bolt with the back being supplied LP air and the front section getting HP air. Then you could vent it like a traditional decreasing force system with a much more predictable valve resolution. I really haven't given this too much thought because I generally loathe the idea of mechanical spool valves.
There is no real compression, the 2 surfaces are pneumatically communicating with each other. I've done this in half a dozen different systems - both with spools and to simplify mechanical actuation of double acting rams - it works well.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:29 PM #17
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There is certainly compression if you don't link the chambers (and do so with adequate flow). The paragon uses a bolt assembly with linked chambers.

This really isn't my type of project because of all the compromises. I do have a design for a self sensing pilot assembly that could sense the firing state and prevent overdwelling, but it's probably beyond the scope of this project. If you're not using a sear then you need to try and decouple the bolt from the trigger as much as possible.

Anyway, I'm out. PM me if you have any specific questions.
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Old 07-13-2014, 12:06 AM #18
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The chambers do need to be close coupled with good flow, very true. But also very doable.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:07 AM #19
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I don't suppose I got the part where you mentioned linking them. If you were taking about a full-time feed to the front and cutting that off and then using the feed for the rear area then I'm just suggesting that's a horrible route to go. You have to give that air somewhere to go or it'll cause issues. I'd still consider a 3-way tied to a QEV personally so the total cycle time was reduced minimizing the possibility of short stroking. Just a preference thing. You could also go with a spring reset (FASOR) configuration, though the air spring concept is functionally similar.

Ideally you want the trigger to INITIATE the firing sequence then get out of the way. That's what I mean by decoupling the action. Using a secondary pilot (like I suggested on inception forums) is the best case scenario IMO.
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Old 07-13-2014, 06:02 PM #20
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Or we could all take a step back and realize this is most likely a ****s'n'giggles project done for the fun of it, where something like a gun that fires consistently is good enough for the end result.
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Old 07-14-2014, 03:36 AM #21
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Hmm...If I have some spare time I would definitely like to build this and see how it would turn out......

Just need some spare time now.......... :-\
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