Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-07-2014, 11:50 PM #1
Lateralus462
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
G4/Ninja Tank Operating Pressure Question

My G4 operates at 200psi, I have a Ninja Tank with a Pro Reg on it and I'm sure it's set at the factory default at 800psi. My question is if I should adjust my tanks psi down (adjusts to 450,550,700 &800psi) and if doing so what are the benefits on efficiency or other aspects of handling/noise and accuracy.

Thank you for your help.
Lateralus462 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 07-08-2014, 01:16 AM #2
CA_Tectonics
 
 
CA_Tectonics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern CA
Minimal difference.

The thought behind running your tank reg at MP or LP is that the marker reg doesn't have to "work" as hard to regulate the tank output pressure to the marker operating pressure. Less stress on the marker reg parts. Second is that you can shoot deeper into a tank fill WITH consistency. With the tank reg set up at 800 psi, once you start to dip below that, the regulator isn't necessarily regulating the output. It is possible to get highs and lows of output air pressure, which can translate to variations in the marker's consistency over a chrono. Having the tank reg set up as LP will get you better consistency as you get lower on air vs. a HP tank reg. This can also translate into some more shots per fill - but not much (less than a hopper extra and probably even less than a pod).

There isn't going to be any difference in sound or "kick". Those relate to the marker's operating pressure, not the tank output pressure. Only accuracy, via marker's consistency when tank is getting low, is going to be the difference as far as marker's performance.
__________________
Graphite Dangerous Power REV-I
TechT bolt engine, REV-I & Disruptive barrel kits, Prophecy V2 w/ Empire feedgate, Crossfire SS 68/4500
Maroon and Polished Aluminum Dangerous Power Threshold
7th Element board, TechT bolt engine, magnet trigger kit, REV-I PMD, Sly Dual Carbon barrel kit, Prophecy V2, Crossfire SS 68/4500
Black and Silver Dangerous Power F8
APE Rampage board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, F8 gauge, REDZ barrel kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500
Polished Aluminum and Red Dangerous Power F8
Virtue board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500
CA_Tectonics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2014, 11:27 PM #3
Ahura_Mazda
Wannabe
 
Ahura_Mazda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Utah
Not to hijack the thread, but is the reason so many people recommend a low pressure tank on the G5 because of the reg? Is the output of an hp tank too high of an input for the inline regulator? Just wondering because I have read to use lp tanks on the G5 in multiple threads.
Ahura_Mazda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2014, 11:30 PM #4
AndrewTheWookie
Disciple of the dark side
 
AndrewTheWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Central Coast, CA
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends V
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VI
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VII
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Tectonics View Post
The thought behind running your tank reg at MP or LP is that the marker reg doesn't have to "work" as hard to regulate the tank output pressure to the marker operating pressure. Less stress on the marker reg parts.
Not really. With the dimensions of regulator pistons, the difference in force between an HP tank and an LP tank is negligible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Tectonics View Post
Second is that you can shoot deeper into a tank fill WITH consistency. With the tank reg set up at 800 psi, once you start to dip below that, the regulator isn't necessarily regulating the output. It is possible to get highs and lows of output air pressure, which can translate to variations in the marker's consistency over a chrono. Having the tank reg set up as LP will get you better consistency as you get lower on air vs. a HP tank reg. This can also translate into some more shots per fill - but not much (less than a hopper extra and probably even less than a pod).
While a reg set at 800 psi won't really be regulating any more once the pressure in the tank drops below that, the output will only be as much pressure as there is in the tank. This section of air use is actually going to be more consistent than the regulated portion, as there is no mechanical force from the regulator affecting the end pressure coming out of the tank, just the basic forces of pressure. Any inconsistencies won't be coming from a change in the pressure going into the reg, but just as a manifestation of the inconsistencies inherent in the regulator design. Tank regs have a super high ratio, since they're able to take 4500psi input all the way down to the set output and maintain that output without much (if any) output change. In a typical gun HPR, that ratio might be more like 50:1 or 100:1, meaning that for every 100psi change in input, you get an inverse 1psi change in output.

Let's say that you have an HP tank and shoot it down to 800psi, so far the output of the tank hasn't changed. Once it starts dropping, it will have an effect on the HPR output relative to that ratio, so a 100:1 ratio reg will change output by 6psi going from an 800psi input to a 200psi input (from when the tank output starts dropping to the minimum useable pressure of the gun). This change in output of the HPR happens gradually over the shots that are draining the tank, and won't be what causes any inconsistencies.

Also, the theory of being able to shoot further into the tank is also a myth, as both an HP and LP tank will have the same energy stored and used by the gun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahura_Mazda View Post
Not to hijack the thread, but is the reason so many people recommend a low pressure tank on the G5 because of the reg? Is the output of an hp tank too high of an input for the inline regulator? Just wondering because I have read to use lp tanks on the G5 in multiple threads.
It is not, the regulator can handle an HP input just fine.
__________________
"When in doubt, just use C4"

WTB Chameleon .50 cal Freak kit

Last edited by AndrewTheWookie : 07-08-2014 at 11:48 PM.
AndrewTheWookie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2014, 11:52 PM #5
Ahura_Mazda
Wannabe
 
Ahura_Mazda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Utah
So all the "run a lp tank to avoid problems" advice is bunk? I ran my G5 on hp for a while with no problems but invested in a nice ninja reg and took out the shims just in case.
Ahura_Mazda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2014, 11:58 PM #6
AndrewTheWookie
Disciple of the dark side
 
AndrewTheWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Central Coast, CA
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends V
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VI
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VII
In terms of LP being better for a regulator it's bunk. However, due to air route designs and how the gun parts seal up getting that air to the regulator (this is mostly just for macroless guns), LP may be beneficial for reducing stress on poorly designed seals between the ASA, grip frame, and body depending on the gun.
__________________
"When in doubt, just use C4"

WTB Chameleon .50 cal Freak kit
AndrewTheWookie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2014, 01:25 AM #7
CA_Tectonics
 
 
CA_Tectonics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
Not really. With the dimensions of regulator pistons, the difference in force between an HP tank and an LP tank is negligible.
This may be true for the piston but there is more to a reg than that. The regulator seat, seals, and spring also should be taken into consideration as well. I was just making a general statement about the differences in force involved comparing HP and LP tank output on a marker's reg. Less work needs to be done by the marker reg spring if the input is lower to start with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
While a reg set at 800 psi won't really be regulating any more once the pressure in the tank drops below that, the output will only be as much pressure as there is in the tank. This section of air use is actually going to be more consistent than the regulated portion, as there is no mechanical force from the regulator affecting the end pressure coming out of the tank, just the basic forces of pressure. Any inconsistencies won't be coming from a change in the pressure going into the reg, but just as a manifestation of the inconsistencies inherent in the regulator design. Tank regs have a super high ratio, since they're able to take 4500psi input all the way down to the set output and maintain that output without much (if any) output change. In a typical gun HPR, that ratio might be more like 50:1 or 100:1, meaning that for every 100psi change in input, you get an inverse 1psi change in output.

Let's say that you have an HP tank and shoot it down to 800psi, so far the output of the tank hasn't changed. Once it starts dropping, it will have an effect on the HPR output relative to that ratio, so a 100:1 ratio reg will change output by 6psi going from an 800psi input to a 200psi input (from when the tank output starts dropping to the minimum useable pressure of the gun). This change in output of the HPR happens gradually over the shots that are draining the tank, and won't be what causes any inconsistencies.

Also, the theory of being able to shoot further into the tank is also a myth, as both an HP and LP tank will have the same energy stored and used by the gun.
The consistency I was referring to was consistency of the velocity of shots over a chrono, not necessarily the consistency of the output of the tank reg. As you mention, there is a ratio at play when the high pressure air is being regulated down. However, the output of the tank DOES matter when chronoing a marker. This is very noticeable when taking a marker, tuning it to whatever the field limit is using a HP output tank reg, then switching to a LP output tank only - no adjusting of the marker. The result is a noticeable and measurable difference in fps between just the changing of tank output pressure.

I do agree that there is X amount of energy stored in a tank but, again, my reference of shooting deeper into the tank fill was meant as a general statement related to getting more chrono consistent shots per fill. But, also like I mentioned, the difference is minimal in this respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahura_Mazda View Post
So all the "run a lp tank to avoid problems" advice is bunk? I ran my G5 on hp for a while with no problems but invested in a nice ninja reg and took out the shims just in case.
As Andrew pointed out, the recommended use of a LP output tank reg is due primarily because of the seals - the ASA, frame to body, and HPR to marker body seals. As I was trying to point out in my 1st response, the marker "regulator" (in this case, seals) doesn't have to work as hard and it is less stress on the parts (seals).
__________________
Graphite Dangerous Power REV-I
TechT bolt engine, REV-I & Disruptive barrel kits, Prophecy V2 w/ Empire feedgate, Crossfire SS 68/4500
Maroon and Polished Aluminum Dangerous Power Threshold
7th Element board, TechT bolt engine, magnet trigger kit, REV-I PMD, Sly Dual Carbon barrel kit, Prophecy V2, Crossfire SS 68/4500
Black and Silver Dangerous Power F8
APE Rampage board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, F8 gauge, REDZ barrel kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500
Polished Aluminum and Red Dangerous Power F8
Virtue board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500
CA_Tectonics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2014, 01:58 AM #8
iPaintSlinger
Front Line
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
You learn something everyday...
__________________
May your trigger finger be as fast as your mind.
May your reflexes be as fast as your thoughts.
May your team communication be as strong as your hunger to win.
iPaintSlinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2014, 03:09 AM #9
AndrewTheWookie
Disciple of the dark side
 
AndrewTheWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Central Coast, CA
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends V
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VI
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VII
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Tectonics View Post
This may be true for the piston but there is more to a reg than that. The regulator seat, seals, and spring also should be taken into consideration as well. I was just making a general statement about the differences in force involved comparing HP and LP tank output on a marker's reg. Less work needs to be done by the marker reg spring if the input is lower to start with.
The seals I can maybe see liking LP more than HP, except they're all pretty much static o-rings (plus, I've had the same o-rings in regs I've used with HP forever). The reg seat will be unaffected by the input. The spring doesn't matter, as it only senses the output pressure the reg is set at, not the input. That means that it doesn't matter what the input is (as long as you don't go over the working threshold for the reg itself), the spring will sense the exact same force every time and will do the exact same work to oppose the movement of the piston, regardless of the input pressure coming from the tank.
__________________
"When in doubt, just use C4"

WTB Chameleon .50 cal Freak kit

Last edited by AndrewTheWookie : 07-09-2014 at 03:12 AM.
AndrewTheWookie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2014, 11:15 AM #10
CA_Tectonics
 
 
CA_Tectonics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
The seals I can maybe see liking LP more than HP, except they're all pretty much static o-rings (plus, I've had the same o-rings in regs I've used with HP forever). The reg seat will be unaffected by the input. The spring doesn't matter, as it only senses the output pressure the reg is set at, not the input. That means that it doesn't matter what the input is (as long as you don't go over the working threshold for the reg itself), the spring will sense the exact same force every time and will do the exact same work to oppose the movement of the piston, regardless of the input pressure coming from the tank.
Yea, you are correct on the spring in a G5. For some reason I was thinking it was on the upstream side of the reduction point instead of the downstream side.....D'oh.

In the bigger picture I was trying to convey is that there is a difference, large or small as it may, when introducing air from a LP tank reg vs. a HP tank reg - which gets to the basic implied questions in the original post. Does it affect marker performance?........as I initially stated, not really. Are there factors that should be taken into consideration when selecting a tank output pressure?........sure (in this case, the seals mentioned above). That is not to say a HP tank will not work, as you have indicated from personal experience, it just isn't a 100% guarantee for everyone.
__________________
Graphite Dangerous Power REV-I
TechT bolt engine, REV-I & Disruptive barrel kits, Prophecy V2 w/ Empire feedgate, Crossfire SS 68/4500
Maroon and Polished Aluminum Dangerous Power Threshold
7th Element board, TechT bolt engine, magnet trigger kit, REV-I PMD, Sly Dual Carbon barrel kit, Prophecy V2, Crossfire SS 68/4500
Black and Silver Dangerous Power F8
APE Rampage board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, F8 gauge, REDZ barrel kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500
Polished Aluminum and Red Dangerous Power F8
Virtue board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500

Last edited by CA_Tectonics : 07-09-2014 at 11:24 AM.
CA_Tectonics is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump