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Old 06-30-2014, 11:33 AM #85
Savage Mikey
 
 
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Blatantly anti-mormon propaganda = anything reported by someone who isnt mormon? If you're going to go the evidence route for determining the validity of the claims made by Joseph Smith you probably wont remain mormon for long. It's one thing to say you feel your religion is right or that you prayed about it and got an answer...no one else can falsify things like that. It's another to try to apply evidence.
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Old 10-19-2014, 11:59 AM #86
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Originally Posted by ElJefe13 View Post
I have never seen evidence of Joseph Smith being a Freemason from impartial sources, all from blatantly anti Mormon propaganda.
Revival from the dead, like Lazarus: Yeah, I guess Deseret News is anti-mormon.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...hs.html?pg=all
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Old 10-26-2014, 05:10 PM #87
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A few questions for you. By the Mormon view...

1) Who is Jesus?

2) How is salvation gained?

3) Can salvation be lost?

4) If the Bible covers everything from beginning to end historically, theologically, Christologically, salvifically, and morally, why is there a need for extra-Biblical works?
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Old 10-27-2014, 04:58 PM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetor View Post
A few questions for you. By the Mormon view...

1) Who is Jesus?

2) How is salvation gained?

3) Can salvation be lost?

4) If the Bible covers everything from beginning to end historically, theologically, Christologically, salvifically, and morally, why is there a need for extra-Biblical works?
1) Jesus is the son of Heavenly Father. He came to Earth in a mortal body, completed the atonement, and then died. He was resurrected into a perfect body, and lives.

2) Salvation is gained through a combination of faith and works. Mainly, keep the commandments, repent, and go through the temple. After that, just endure. Many of these steps can be completed after death through the combined actions of your posterity and you, but it is more difficult. Although, I may have to ask for your definition of salvation as we don't just believe that after we die it's only heaven/hell, we believe in many kingdoms.

3) Yes. King David is a good example of someone who achieved salvation and lost it through adultery and murder.

4) A couple of reasons. First, we don't believe it covers everything. It has gaps, particularly in the historical record. It also only follows the Jewish nation (mostly) after Israel split into kingdoms. They are 11 other tribes, all with stories and history and prophets. The Book of Mormon, for example, is a record of the tribe of Joseph. We also believe that many of the plain and precious truths in the Bible have been taken out (particularly at the Council of Nicae, but all throughout history Satan has been attempting to change the records), or misinterpreted/mistranslated. Third, their are so many different ways to interpret the same passages in the Bible (hence why there are so many different sects in Christianity). The other scripture we have helps clarify doctrine. The metaphor I've heard is to compare it to drawing straight lines through a dot. If there is only one dot, an infinite number of lines can be drawn through it. But if there are two independent dots, only one line can be drawn.
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Old 10-27-2014, 05:02 PM #89
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Joseph smith was a Freemason and Freemasons were not allowed to say Jesus name in the lodge how do you explain your religion?
Sorry about my original comment, I had never heard that. I guess I was just too lazy to google.

I would say that my testimony of the Gospel and Joseph Smith are not based on his individual actions, but on a spiritual witness from heaven. So it doesn't really matter to me if he was a freemason or not, I still believe in him.

Also, sorry about the really late reply, I've been super busy and haven't gotten on pbnation in forever.
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:29 PM #90
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I greatly appreciate the thoughtful reply! And no worries on the delayed response- forgive mine as well- I know the feeling of getting bogged down with work and extracurricular obligations all too well. I don't expect an immediate reply, because I don't expect anything I'm not able to give either. lol

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Originally Posted by ElJefe13 View Post
1) Jesus is the son of Heavenly Father. He came to Earth in a mortal body, completed the atonement, and then died. He was resurrected into a perfect body, and lives.
Good answer! For a little more clarification: do you believe in the Trinity? That is, that Jesus is of the same “stuff” as God, and existed eternally as part of God prior to His Incarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElJefe13 View Post
2) Salvation is gained through a combination of faith and works. Mainly, keep the commandments, repent, and go through the temple. After that, just endure. Many of these steps can be completed after death through the combined actions of your posterity and you, but it is more difficult. Although, I may have to ask for your definition of salvation as we don't just believe that after we die it's only heaven/hell, we believe in many kingdoms.
I’m equally curious as to your definition of salvation, lol. A strictly biblical view of salvation is the saving of one’s soul from our sins, the wages of which are death and eternal separation from God in Hell, through faith in the perfect, once-and-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

This spawns a couple more questions. If salvation is a combination of faith and works…
1) What’s the ratio? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Did Christ die for all sins or just a percentage of them?

2) What biblical support would you cite for this view of salvation being gained by faith/works?

3) What biblical evidence would you cite for the belief in many kingdoms, and could you elaborate on said kingdoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElJefe13 View Post
3) Yes. King David is a good example of someone who achieved salvation and lost it through adultery and murder.
4) Can you give biblical evidence for David’s gain and loss of salvation? And do you mean a permanent or temporary loss of salvation? This is an interesting concept I’ve never heard mention of before.

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Originally Posted by ElJefe13 View Post
4) A couple of reasons. First, we don't believe it covers everything. It has gaps, particularly in the historical record. It also only follows the Jewish nation (mostly) after Israel split into kingdoms. They are 11 other tribes, all with stories and history and prophets. The Book of Mormon, for example, is a record of the tribe of Joseph. We also believe that many of the plain and precious truths in the Bible have been taken out (particularly at the Council of Nicae, but all throughout history Satan has been attempting to change the records), or misinterpreted/mistranslated. Third, their are so many different ways to interpret the same passages in the Bible (hence why there are so many different sects in Christianity). The other scripture we have helps clarify doctrine. The metaphor I've heard is to compare it to drawing straight lines through a dot. If there is only one dot, an infinite number of lines can be drawn through it. But if there are two independent dots, only one line can be drawn.
5) If God brought salvation by His Son through the tribe of Judah and the line of David, what is the need for the back stories of the other 11 tribes? If the Bible is God’s message to the world, from beginning to end, creation to judgment and new creation, on how to be restored to Him by faith in His Son, and if that applies to the Jew and the Gentile from Christ’s resurrection until time ends as it indicates, then what need is there for extra-biblical material?

May I submit that the subject of biblical clarification/verification is a little more optimistic than the metaphor you mentioned suggests? As far as biblical manuscripts go, we have far from “one dot”; we have over 5,000 copies in the Greek, as well as some 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic languages which allow us to gauge the overall accuracy of the New Testament (pre-Nicea) to 99.5% textually pure. As a result, it has the greatest degree of copying accuracy of any ancient document in existence. Nothing else comes close.

In regard to the changing of the message by Satan throughout history, I certainly agree- both man and Satan have spent an enormous amount of time and energy in the distortion of Scripture to suit their own desires. Thankfully, we can take a look at biblical/Christian history and western civilization from the beginning, up through Christ, and from there to present day and, knowing our starting point of the original message has been verified by ancient texts penned at that time, we can view history in that context and with relative ease see where the original message has been distorted by man, and where it has remained consistent with the original.

For instance, given the historical verification of documents from the First Century A.D., we can examine the creed of the Council of Nicea and determine that it simply affirmed to that which all manuscripts of the New Testament support- that Jesus was the Son of God, and rejected the contemporary one-off heresies of the day which claimed that Jesus was finite, created, or otherwise not of identical substance as God.

We can also fast-forward beyond the Council of Nicea, to say, 451 A.D. and the Council of Chalcedon in Asia Minor, examine their creed, and see that their beliefs had not strayed from the original message either.

6) So do Mormons believe in the historical accuracy of the Bible, and if not, why not? On what verifiable, debatable grounds do Mormons claim the need for additional texts? By that I mean, can we open both the Bible and the Book of Mormon and have a rational, theologically/historically verifiable/falsifiable discussion on the need for additional texts?

Thanks again for your time!
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