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Old 06-13-2014, 08:11 PM #22
dymium
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Originally Posted by XxcrazymanxX View Post
Would the first place winner at World Cup still gain free entrance fee to Nationals?
The proposed changes would replace the free entry fee with a $500 discount, free class AA entry, and either 1 or 2 wins used to determine your seeding for Nationals (prelims and playoffs), bringing it in line with the other proposed open events.

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Old 06-13-2014, 08:55 PM #23
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Hello Everyone,

***This message is my personal opinion and should not reflect my team, university, or anyone else.***

I believe that the NCPA has made some great proposed changes here to help our sport grow at a collegiate level. However, I too, have some concerns or questions as to what or why the NCPA has chosen to go in certain directions.

For instance, why would there be a Race-to-7 format opposed to a "Full Event". Considering that Nationals will be played as a Full event format, i believe that teams and the league should have the consistency throughout the season to play and prepare for the expectations at nationals (regardless of conference or open play). In addition, I believe Friday of nationals should be treated as a separate event, considering that you are including the impact of the regular season to aid the performance of teams at nationals. Then moving onto the playoff rounds, you should create a standard tournament bracket based on prelim(/regular season) seeding... This will allow everyone to follow along with who they play and who is next if they win. I know that there was a lot of confusion with some of the schools at the 2013-2014 nationals on who they would be playing. From my understanding they consulted Chris Reahl and it did not help. A tournament bracket(s) would be very simplistic, yet effective.

Another one of my concerns was with the pricing of the NCPA and the distinction between Class A and AA. Obviously the NCPA is a business and need financial support to stay afloat. However, i believe the numbers just do not add up or can be justifiable (which also has to do with the lack of distinction between A and AA). If a University plays 3 Class AA events ($150 ea) and then plays class A nationals ($1900) = $2350 as compared to the Class A season of $3800.... This is what Penn State did last season (after reforming a club that was inactive as many of you already know). There was no problems with the transition/distinction. Also with open formatting in place this year it states, "any team participating in 3 or more open events will receive a free 2015 nationals entry".... i would hope so considering they are paying $3900.... I believe the prices of the NCPA are not UNREASONABLE, but are EXTREMELY hard to meet for the majority of (full-time) college students. you said that there was a decrease in Class A teams, and i dont believe it is hard to think why.... $3800 + paint + traveling costs + gear/equipment + etc. can add up to much more than a paintball club can handle (especially if the a university is trying to start a club, is relatively new, or are back from inactivity).

Therefore, I am in favor of implementing a incentive system (especially for Class A). Obviously you see in the PSP that there are clear incentives for placing in a tournament.... Even within the NCPA there are waivers for Class AA nationals. But excluding those waivers, there is nothing for returning clubs, clubs that have meant requirements (jersey etc.) in the previous season, social media (as Shotyaface mentioned), money off the next events for placing, or something... Gratification, bragging rights, and a $20 trophy are very exciting, but there could be something a little better .

Just so you know where i am coming from, I helped (along with 2 other people) reformed the PSU Paintball Club during the summer of 2013. We started from the ground up since our club was inactive the past 2-3 years. We recieved $0 funding from the school until nationals where we received a minimal amount to help with our flights. Penn State is so big and has so many clubs that their budget gets spread out and as a result, each club does not receive a lot of money. Aside from that, we recruited about 20 people to play competitively and asked them to basically fund themselves throughout the year out of their own pockets (which many of you probably do). We chose to play Class AA, not because we thought we were not talented enough for Class A NEIC, but because we could not support ourselves financially. Obviously, like any other club we had fundraisers to help with jerseys, event registrations, etc. but we asked a lot from our players and are limited for our location. We had a goal to play Class A at nationals, which we accomplished where we, along with many others fell short of the championship (congrats UCF). But we find ourselves in a similar situation again this upcoming season since we depleted a lot of our funds to help our players with nationals. Since then, i have been contacted by 3 smaller universities and a branch campus of Penn State for advise on how to start up a Paintball Club there. We are doing something right, but once again it is hard to start up since paintball is already expensive for new players. I am not telling you this for pity or for anyone to start debating any topics that i have brought up. I have shared my story with you guys to say that it CAN be done and some of the hardships that we had to overcome to be a club sport. If anyone feels like discussing this further or touch upon any of my topics. Please feel free to contact me.

-Chris

P.S- Sorry for the lengthy response....
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Old 06-14-2014, 04:53 PM #24
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I agree with Chris completely on the extra incentive. And like Chris I along with a couple other cadets from VMI started our speedball side of our club 2 years ago. It's hard to justify to my players which some will go active military and some won't to fund their own gear, jerseys and whatever else when all they see as a payoff is bragging rights. Also another topic I had a question about and is the ranking system at least for AA. Now this is not a knock against Liberty University by any means and congrats on being 1st during regular season. But they had 4-5 lines playing at every tournament they go to. And which ever of their lines finished highest would have their points added to the overall score. Now my question is how come every line isn't an individual team that can get their own ranking? Because this puts a damper on the teams that can only field one line at any given tournament to even try and come close to grabbing 1st place for the season.
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Old 06-14-2014, 08:38 PM #25
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Now my question is how come every line isn't an individual team that can get their own ranking? Because this puts a damper on the teams that can only field one line at any given tournament to even try and come close to grabbing 1st place for the season.
For the season depending on how many events are played ( For this season 4 + Nationals ) It takes the top score from any school and then adds those 5 scores together. I don't necessarily think this gives any school advantage as all the lines still represent ONE school. It would be a HUGE list of rankings if every school was listed with their multiple lines and it would not look pretty.

What I do want to see is an individual bracket for certain conferences say NEIC for example. I took personal scores and kept track of who the overall season winner was which I think SHOULD be seen in rankings on the website.

Teams that do very well in their conference in my opinion should get extra seeding points for nationals. This give incentive for schools to attend all events if they can as well as preform better if they have a little bit more on the line.

This is my personal opinion but PLEASE GET A DAM TROPHY FOR THE NATIONALS WINNERS! I think its so silly that teams can win a regional event and get a nice trophy but when they travel thousands of miles to compete in Florida all they get is a banner? I know the NCPA isn't the most funded but I dam well know you guys can afford some nice trophy's.

Another thing.... I the think NCPA website is SUPER outdated or at least I think as a professional organization you guys can do 10 times better.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:08 PM #26
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Ever thought of adding incentives for good grades? Paint discounts for lines with a combined GPA of 3.0 or higher?
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:34 PM #27
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Originally Posted by daveumasspaint View Post
For the season depending on how many events are played ( For this season 4 + Nationals ) It takes the top score from any school and then adds those 5 scores together. I don't necessarily think this gives any school advantage as all the lines still represent ONE school. It would be a HUGE list of rankings if every school was listed with their multiple lines and it would not look pretty. What I do want to see is an individual bracket for certain conferences say NEIC for example. I took personal scores and kept track of who the overall season winner was which I think SHOULD be seen in rankings on the website. Teams that do very well in their conference in my opinion should get extra seeding points for nationals. This give incentive for schools to attend all events if they can as well as preform better if they have a little bit more on the line. This is my personal opinion but PLEASE GET A DAM TROPHY FOR THE NATIONALS WINNERS! I think its so silly that teams can win a regional event and get a nice trophy but when they travel thousands of miles to compete in Florida all they get is a banner? I know the NCPA isn't the most funded but I dam well know you guys can afford some nice trophy's. Another thing.... I the think NCPA website is SUPER outdated or at least I think as a professional organization you guys can do 10 times better.
Agree. I see the pictures from the Texas events and they get some huge *** trophies.

Also agree on the site update.
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Old 06-15-2014, 04:12 AM #28
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Originally Posted by daveumasspaint View Post
For the season depending on how many events are played ( For this season 4 + Nationals ) It takes the top score from any school and then adds those 5 scores together. I don't necessarily think this gives any school advantage as all the lines still represent ONE school. It would be a HUGE list of rankings if every school was listed with their multiple lines and it would not look pretty.

What I do want to see is an individual bracket for certain conferences say NEIC for example. I took personal scores and kept track of who the overall season winner was which I think SHOULD be seen in rankings on the website.

Teams that do very well in their conference in my opinion should get extra seeding points for nationals. This give incentive for schools to attend all events if they can as well as preform better if they have a little bit more on the line.

This is my personal opinion but PLEASE GET A DAM TROPHY FOR THE NATIONALS WINNERS! I think its so silly that teams can win a regional event and get a nice trophy but when they travel thousands of miles to compete in Florida all they get is a banner? I know the NCPA isn't the most funded but I dam well know you guys can afford some nice trophy's.

Another thing.... I the think NCPA website is SUPER outdated or at least I think as a professional organization you guys can do 10 times better.
I actually like your idea of a bracket for the conference to see who is top in the conference. But then again I think the NCPA wound have to go and define conferences. I know for me I'm in the MSCC and I only know a couple teams in my conference because we play them. Yet on our conference Facebook page it lists teams from Kentucky, Georgia, Florida. I would like to see a clear definition of conferences.
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Old 06-15-2014, 04:52 PM #29
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I actually like your idea of a bracket for the conference to see who is top in the conference. But then again I think the NCPA wound have to go and define conferences. I know for me I'm in the MSCC and I only know a couple teams in my conference because we play them. Yet on our conference Facebook page it lists teams from Kentucky, Georgia, Florida. I would like to see a clear definition of conferences.
I am not sure how the other conferences are run but in the NEIC we had about 13 different teams this season so it would have been cool to see those rankings on the site.
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Old 06-15-2014, 07:11 PM #30
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Can we please keep the format the same 2 10 min half's it is the most sport like format created, there is chances for comebacks unlike race-to. I also think it fun for the viewers to watch.
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Old 06-15-2014, 07:47 PM #31
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Can we please keep the format the same 2 10 min half's it is the most sport like format created, there is chances for comebacks unlike race-to. I also think it fun for the viewers to watch.
Frank,

Nationals, Cup, and Season Class A entries will remain the same as usual (2 10min halves). The open Class A events are RT7, because it will help lower paint costs. And as you can see from the post by the Penn State player, costs have to remain as low as possible, and RT7 will allow schools to pay for half the paint that is normally required for a Season Class A event/Nationals A/Cup. You dont have to play in open Class A, you can still play in your Season Class A conference and do the open class A format.

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Old 06-16-2014, 01:49 AM #32
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I am not sure how the other conferences are run but in the NEIC we had about 13 different teams this season so it would have been cool to see those rankings on the site.
I don't even know exactly how many teams we have in our conference. That's why I want to see some clear defining of conferences.
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Old 06-16-2014, 07:26 PM #33
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Frank,

Nationals, Cup, and Season Class A entries will remain the same as usual (2 10min halves). The open Class A events are RT7, because it will help lower paint costs. And as you can see from the post by the Penn State player, costs have to remain as low as possible, and RT7 will allow schools to pay for half the paint that is normally required for a Season Class A event/Nationals A/Cup. You dont have to play in open Class A, you can still play in your Season Class A conference and do the open class A format.

Martin
I understand that, but your creating more rules and not a seamless transition to full college x ball (i am saying this because we now have so many formats we the schools now have three sets of rules to learn. Also if your college has not read the rule book your shorting yourself, herd alot of schools complaining about rules they said are made up that are clearly stated, and the other way around.) Note i also think class AA should be in match format race to 2 pits to help build a lil pit awareness and time management for a eventual/ wanted jump to class A.
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Old 06-16-2014, 09:00 PM #34
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I understand that, but your creating more rules and not a seamless transition to full college x ball (i am saying this because we now have so many formats we the schools now have three sets of rules to learn. Also if your college has not read the rule book your shorting yourself, herd alot of schools complaining about rules they said are made up that are clearly stated, and the other way around.) Note i also think class AA should be in match format race to 2 pits to help build a lil pit awareness and time management for a eventual/ wanted jump to class A.
I agree with the match style format, as this would help to directly lead into the A division
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Old 06-16-2014, 09:42 PM #35
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If a University plays 3 Class AA events ($150 ea) and then plays class A nationals ($1900) = $2350 as compared to the Class A season of $3800....
Doing the PSP schedule but can hit this one quick...

You're not comparing the same things - you're trading 3 Class A events for 3 Class AA events.

Class A events are also BYOP while Class AA are FPO, so there's additional costs on the AA side in paint margin that show up in the A side in entry fees.

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Old 06-16-2014, 09:45 PM #36
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Originally Posted by daveumasspaint View Post
This is my personal opinion but PLEASE GET A DAM TROPHY FOR THE NATIONALS WINNERS! I think its so silly that teams can win a regional event and get a nice trophy but when they travel thousands of miles to compete in Florida all they get is a banner? I know the NCPA isn't the most funded but I dam well know you guys can afford some nice trophy's.
The price for the banners vs. trophies/medals is about the same, so it's not a money thing.

It's more:

Team Trophy + Medals: Big team trophy goes in a trophy case somewhere and you get a medal you put somewhere - after you try and haul that team trophy back on the plane.

Banners all around: You get something you can put on your wall that you and other people can actually see what it is and how you got it.


I'm sure not everyone is going to agree, but we all thought the latter was a better option for most people.


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Old 06-16-2014, 09:53 PM #37
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The proposed changes would replace the free entry fee with a $500 discount, free class AA entry, and either 1 or 2 wins used to determine your seeding for Nationals (prelims and playoffs), bringing it in line with the other proposed open events.
Side note here: I think this may be an open issue.... if we charge $1,900 entry to cup, there will probably be a free Nationals entry, if we charge the same $1,300 as other non-conference open events, then there would not.

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Old 06-16-2014, 10:14 PM #38
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The price for the banners vs. trophies/medals is about the same, so it's not a money thing.

It's more:

Team Trophy + Medals: Big team trophy goes in a trophy case somewhere and you get a medal you put somewhere - after you try and haul that team trophy back on the plane.

Banners all around: You get something you can put on your wall that you and other people can actually see what it is and how you got it.


I'm sure not everyone is going to agree, but we all thought the latter was a better option for most people.


- Chris

I see your point Chris , maybe instead of trophy's just medals would suffice ( Since I see the issue with getting a big trophy on a plane and such ) but again it was just a random thought.
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Old 06-16-2014, 10:18 PM #39
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***This message is my personal opinion and should not reflect my team, university, or anyone else.***
There's nothing offensive in your opinion. Let it represent your team - this is an open discussion, and we're all here to make this league better.

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For instance, why would there be a Race-to-7 format opposed to a "Full Event". Considering that Nationals will be played as a Full event format, i believe that teams and the league should have the consistency throughout the season to play and prepare for the expectations at nationals (regardless of conference or open play).
Because playing a full-format event is expensive. You play more points and shoot more paint. In an ideal world, we'd just run open events on the full format, but most teams would be out of their annual budget by the first event. The RaceTo-7 option allows us an opportunity to bridge teams into full format at a lower cost, in regions where we don't already have a strong Class A presence. The RaceTo-7 option is the happy medium between choosing to not run Class A and running it - and I think we can all agree that we'd rather see Class A run more than it is right now.

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In addition, I believe Friday of nationals should be treated as a separate event, considering that you are including the impact of the regular season to aid the performance of teams at nationals. Then moving onto the playoff rounds, you should create a standard tournament bracket based on prelim(/regular season) seeding... This will allow everyone to follow along with who they play and who is next if they win. I know that there was a lot of confusion with some of the schools at the 2013-2014 nationals on who they would be playing. From my understanding they consulted Chris Reahl and it did not help. A tournament bracket(s) would be very simplistic, yet effective.
This is how Nationals works already, has worked for as long as I can personally recall, and how we intend to continue running it. Friday play at Nationals is an open event, meaning any school can enter. Once Friday play is complete, we seed teams into the playoffs based on their regular season performance (which includes Friday play). For reference, most every tournament paintball event nowadays uses a bracket-style, single elimination playoff - including PSP, NCPA, PSP affiliates, and just about every league that uses APPA.

I'll apologize if there was any confusion as to who moves on and who plays who - I believe we did our best to let teams know, to make schedules public on the website, and to have that be as transparent as possible. I know for 100% certain that the graphics we did clearly showed how advancement worked on Saturday.

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Another one of my concerns was with the pricing of the NCPA and the distinction between Class A and AA. Obviously the NCPA is a business and need financial support to stay afloat. However, i believe the numbers just do not add up or can be justifiable (which also has to do with the lack of distinction between A and AA). If a University plays 3 Class AA events ($150 ea) and then plays class A nationals ($1900) = $2350 as compared to the Class A season of $3800.... This is what Penn State did last season (after reforming a club that was inactive as many of you already know). There was no problems with the transition/distinction. Also with open formatting in place this year it states, "any team participating in 3 or more open events will receive a free 2015 nationals entry".... i would hope so considering they are paying $3900.... I believe the prices of the NCPA are not UNREASONABLE, but are EXTREMELY hard to meet for the majority of (full-time) college students. you said that there was a decrease in Class A teams, and i dont believe it is hard to think why.... $3800 + paint + traveling costs + gear/equipment + etc. can add up to much more than a paintball club can handle (especially if the a university is trying to start a club, is relatively new, or are back from inactivity).
I'm not perfectly clear what point you're trying to make here, other than paintball is an expensive sport. If that's the case, we couldn't agree with you more. That's one of the main reasons behind these changes - lower costs for teams who are already keen on participating in Class A. Yes, it's going to be more expensive for teams making the jump, but that's a decision your team will have to make - additional paint, lodging costs for double the people as a Class AA event, etc. We're not expecting every school to attend a Class A event - in fact, we're making sure that can't happen by capping the event attendance. The reality is that Class A is more expensive to play in, and something a team will have to budget for. Financial aid from the school and money out of player's pockets are not the only ways to raise funds to play - club fundraisers, selling club t-shirts, and begging parents / boosters for additional cash should be a part of a Class A oriented program (and most successful programs for that matter). We also recommend building a strong relationship with your local fields. It's not unheard of to have various deals worked out with the field to trade business (incoming players or referee duties) for goods and services (paint or entry discount, cash, etc).

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Therefore, I am in favor of implementing a incentive system (especially for Class A). Obviously you see in the PSP that there are clear incentives for placing in a tournament.... Even within the NCPA there are waivers for Class AA nationals. But excluding those waivers, there is nothing for returning clubs, clubs that have meant requirements (jersey etc.) in the previous season, social media (as Shotyaface mentioned), money off the next events for placing, or something... Gratification, bragging rights, and a $20 trophy are very exciting, but there could be something a little better .
Like you said before, the NCPA is a business. Although we do want to make sure that teams and players have fun and don't go broke in the process, we are a non-profit league and don't exactly have money that we can just throw around to every team that's around. And just like every other college sport (NCAA or otherwise), there's no prizes for a reason.

Great job on re-starting the PSU program! We never like seeing any programs disappear, so it's always a good feeling when we get programs back.

Joe
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Old 06-16-2014, 10:26 PM #40
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, MI
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Originally Posted by isgrowitaego View Post
I understand that, but your creating more rules and not a seamless transition to full college x ball (i am saying this because we now have so many formats we the schools now have three sets of rules to learn. Also if your college has not read the rule book your shorting yourself, herd alot of schools complaining about rules they said are made up that are clearly stated, and the other way around.) Note i also think class AA should be in match format race to 2 pits to help build a lil pit awareness and time management for a eventual/ wanted jump to class A.
A match format in RaceTo-2 adds some complexity to planning for teams, and it may also increase cost (additional hotel rooms depending on your team). That's a barrier to entry that we don't want to introduce. There's also a good amount of inefficiency when running match-style RaceTo-2 that would reduce the number of teams we can accommodate at an event - absolutely something we don't want to do.

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Old 06-16-2014, 10:51 PM #41
SARGE37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dymium View Post
A match format in RaceTo-2 adds some complexity to planning for teams, and it may also increase cost (additional hotel rooms depending on your team). That's a barrier to entry that we don't want to introduce. There's also a good amount of inefficiency when running match-style RaceTo-2 that would reduce the number of teams we can accommodate at an event - absolutely something we don't want to do.

Joe
All I know is I hate the play a team wait 4 games play another team etc etc. I hate the whole waiting to get the best of 3 out of the way. I mean it's not like we are doing race to 4 or 7. What about that new format PSP introduced at MAO? I never heard how it did but it sounded like it could work in the AA. I agree that it is a big jump going from AA to A and I think if we brought a race to format to AA it gives both the team and the school a taste of what it would take to jump to A. I would like to see my school jump up to class A but we feel that AA hasn't really prepared us for that jump. And I think AA should prepare teams for that jump.
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Old 06-17-2014, 07:15 AM #42
Matt - St Thomas(MN)
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Hey, my name is Matt Maile and I am with the University of St Thomas in Minnesota. I am transferring into St Thomas and will most likely be reviving the team there, but I saw that you guys will be scheduling before the school year even starts. I will do my best to get active members with the activities fair and posters, but will St Thomas have a spot in the league this year since I won't be able to have all 10 active members by the end of the summer?
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