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Old 04-16-2014, 04:14 PM #64
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My team placed 2nd at the event and we personally thought the refs were on par. Simple rule i told my team if you are hit, stop check yourself. We did it and never had a signal penalty against us. The only one that really killed me was the marker pointing down field, they did it the second point in the finals match and pretty much made us lose the match. But when the team before shot down field and hit our player because it bounced off a bunker he wasn't pulled. Either way we all agree that the refs did well on field 2 and did their job, i personally have seen a bunch of them in PSP and they reefed with the same level of professionalism
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:46 PM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedo View Post
There are a LOT of teams in this form that are saying they did not feel the reffing quality was there.
Are we looking at the same forum? Because I see only a small handful of people complaining, with more people saying they thought the officiating was good.

I've been doing this a long time. No one takes the quality of the officiating more seriously than I do. That's why we bring in the PSP Ultimate to handle reffing at the event. And there isn't a league in the country who staffs an overall more experienced set of referees than we do at NCPA Nationals.

Which may be part of the perceived problem - a lot of people used to the reffing at home are surprised when they come to nationals and get reffing up to the PSP standard, specifically when things that don't get penalties at home do get penalties at nationals (as they should).

I understand that some people got calls they don't agree with. I'm certain some people got calls that were just plain wrong - hundreds of games over the course of the weekend, it is going to happen. One of the reasons we play the RaceTo formats is to limit the impact of the infrequent but inevitable bad call.

But I also heard no negative feedback at the event. And even some of the issues raised here (like the other team supposedly getting the point on a minor) should have been easily resolved at the time of the issue. And some of the complaints about "bad calls" are also cases where the person just doesn't understand the rules.


Anyway, we brought in the best league ultimate in the business to bring in the refs. He has a list of the best referees in the country to pull from. The best referees available were brought in to run the event. We pay well above the going rate for referee compensation in that area. The performance of the referees over the course of the weekend was supervised by the Ultimate and other NCPA staff. We were available for feedback all weekend, and all feedback I'm aware of on-site was positive.


We will continue to bring in the best reffing possible next year.


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Old 04-16-2014, 11:07 PM #66
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I may or may not be beating a dead horse but,

I don't feel everyone speaks for their entire team when they post. A lot of the time it is one person who forms an opinion and mistakenly tries to speak for the whole.

Based on what I personally experienced and witnessed, I feel the reffing was on par for the skill level present at the event. I did not expect PSP quality at all to be honest. I was surprised how well the refs actually performed. Especially how the starting jumps were handled when the other fields whistle blew. This is a major issue that I understand is hard to handle. I really feel that the refs did a fantastic job on false starts (and paying attention by pausing the clocks) that I actually witnessed and experienced. Restarting points and not penalizing in these situations is a huge to see.

The only thing I noticed related to consistency from Saturday to Sunday on the AA fields. Specifically, but not limited to, the pointing of a gun down field. This was addressed already. No knock of the ref who made the call since my player should have known this, but it should have been called on Saturday when he did it as well. Had the consistency been there our team would not have had to deal with that issue in the elimination point on Sunday. I felt that more calls were being made on Sunday than there was on Saturday. Many factors play into this observation and it probably is irrelevant, so yea...

Sure there was bad calls, but it was nothing you wouldn't see at a local or national event. A lot of the "bad calls" are opinion and come from an individuals understanding and play of the game. Minus the "infrequent but inevitable bad call" which is exactly that, infrequent but inevitable. Teams should know these calls are going to happen and be able to play well enough as to not be effected by them as best as possible. I don't like saying that, but it's no different than a bad call in any other sport. If you play well enough, bad calls should be irrelevant.



Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
One of the reasons we play the RaceTo formats is to limit the impact of the infrequent but inevitable bad call.

- Chris
I'm picking and choosing, but I disagree with this comment.

Bad calls in the RT2 format can and do end a teams event in a heartbeat. They have less of an impact in RT4/5/6 cause teams can turn around and come back. With RT2 a bad call can cripple an entire match for a team. With the top 2 advancing and maybe a wildcard, that one point/match will end the event for a team who otherwise would be playing Sunday or further into finals.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:33 PM #67
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Originally Posted by exo3901 View Post
Bad calls in the RT2 format can and do end a teams event in a heartbeat. They have less of an impact in RT4/5/6 cause teams can turn around and come back. With RT2 a bad call can cripple an entire match for a team. With the top 2 advancing and maybe a wildcard, that one point/match will end the event for a team who otherwise would be playing Sunday or further into finals.
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Old 04-17-2014, 12:05 AM #68
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From what I saw, there was more leniency on penalties on Saturday and more flags were flying on Sunday. Maybe people were just playing cleaner on Saturday, I don't know. PA couple pays that should have at least gotten a minor received nothing. I got a red that ended our Sunday run for a trade out on snake side and the whole sideline disagreed with the call, even guys who were with the other team. Overall, it was a good experience. Though I wish we weren't rushed with 35 seconds between points, but understand you guys have to stay on schedule and go through a ton of matches.
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Old 04-17-2014, 09:51 AM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exo3901 View Post
Bad calls in the RT2 format can and do end a teams event in a heartbeat. They have less of an impact in RT4/5/6 cause teams can turn around and come back. With RT2 a bad call can cripple an entire match for a team. With the top 2 advancing and maybe a wildcard, that one point/match will end the event for a team who otherwise would be playing Sunday or further into finals.
Obviously dad calls have to make a difference - otherwise correct penalties wouldn't be a deterrent - but best-two-of-three mitigates the impact vs. a one-and-done or round-robin format. If you drop a point to a bad call, there are still two other points to play to pull out the win.

Not that we shouldn't still strive for the right call all the time.

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Old 04-17-2014, 01:03 PM #70
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This was my first nationals (many more to come) and the first thing I said on friday was

"Marcus, this is 1 of the best crews of refs Ive seen" They worked hard and were 100% fair. Down to removing themselves from the field if they had an intrest in the team that was playing. example being 1 of the refs was part of the FAU team, and he stood next to me everytime they were on the field.

Ive run a lot of events and spent a lot of money on refs and these guys were awesome!

I dont think it can get much better then what was on the field. There will be mistakes, period. Human error is a factor in anything. These guys handled their business at a top tier.

If anyone can do better, email me rspierowski@cpxsports.com
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Old 04-17-2014, 05:52 PM #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedo View Post
Raehl you got yourself a little storm here apparently, I do agree with a large percentage of people here that the refs on the Class AA fields seemed to be asleep or just not making the appropriate calls. If it was one or two teams complaining I would write it off as those teams being upset they gut caught on penalties or just not owning up to their faults, but that is not the case here.

There are a LOT of teams in this form that are saying they did not feel the reffing quality was there. It will not change how the standings ended for this year, but we ask that you please wake them up and take some steps to ensure that we are getting quality.

For many of these college teams, we shell out a lot of our own cash to get here. I am speaking for my team when we say we do not get much funding, but we have been at Nationals every year since our formation. Compared to universities like Florida Gulf Coast (Big love to them by the way, they really helped us out!) Liberty, UConn and a few others, we get jack from our university. Yet you continue to see ISU on the roster because we love our sport and college paintball is a great deal for us. We are not getting APPA points worth much to change our division, we are not getting prizes, and we have to spend the greater part of a year fundraising to get there, but we are there every year. 18 hour drive and all.

What I am saying is, it is on you to create a league in which we want to play. The amount of dedication, time, sweat, tears, money, and sometimes the sacrifice of grades, it would be disrespectful to not take in the comments of your league and make the needed implications to ensure the quality remains.

I can speak for the greater portion of the NCPA when I say Thank you for the work you put into the league. Without your efforts we would not have such an event where we can meet our peers in this sport and have an event that is solely about the passion of the sport.

We ask you just listen to us, as we want this league to grow and we want to make all we sacrifice to play in it worth it.
Yes to D) all the above. We look up to teams like this cuz we know it can be done. Just couldn't make it happen this time. Played our first NCPA event in 7 years down in ft. worth and it took everything to make that one event happen for us. Keep up the good work, hope to be where you are all at someday. Thank you NCPA, please get us some more matches in the midwest, heck we would like to host an event if possible.
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:21 PM #72
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I talked to a number of teams that had a problem with the refs. The refs definitely weren't the best but they could have been worse.

My team, the UB Bulls, got 2 bad calls that cost us the opportunity to play for 1st and 2nd.

During the last point, it came down to a 1 on 1. My player got bounced in the arm and the ref called him out. I normally don't complain about refs but I mean there was no shell, no paint, nothing. I know this because I was walking off and standing next to the ref who called him out when he was bounced. I saw EXACTLY what that ref saw. The ref couldn't show us where the ball broke. The ref i'm referring to was the young ref at the far end of the AA field. He was a younger kid with longer hair.

The next time, our snake guy bunkered the 50. The 50 spun and they called both players out. So it should have either been a penalty or our guy should have been allowed to stay in. The teams watching also felt that this was the wrong call.

I understand that the tournament is over but i'd just like to bring these to your attention.

Congratulations to all teams, it was an awesome weekend. This is my first season at the NCPA but I have PSP, AXBL, CXBL, and NAPL experience. The NCPA hosted an awesome season! It was very well organized and is doing big things for college paintball.

Now if only we could all play XBall instead of Race2

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Old 04-17-2014, 10:49 PM #73
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I also saw quite a few bad calls. Only one my team received was due to the Class A field on Friday using a whistle which made us and NC state both jump. We had 3 players pulled even though we tagged up and did not shoot. NC I believe had 1 player pulled. We both laughed about it afterwards (NC and us) so there were no hard feelings between us

Many instances on Field #2 of players getting either no penalty for an obvious hit (like a hit to the face, continuing to play on but no flag). I also saw a very bad call on field 1 when UConn was playing in the finals against UCF. UCF's D-corner got shot in the arm by UConns D-side player. Paint broke, large mark. Cant miss it. Reff who was looking at said UCF player (on the same side of the arm) did nothing. UCF player continued to play on, shot the UConn dorito player out and their Snake player. All because UConn saw the player get hit with paint that broke so they assumed the UCF player was out.

Guess we should not assume a player is out when 3 reffs are staring at said player who quite obviously got shot.

For the amount of points played, i believe we had a good ratio of good-to-bad calls. Would that call during the UCF UConn game changed the outcome? Nope. Would it have been nice to have correct calls during crunch times? Yupp.

Sad to see this as my last NCPA Nationals. I had a lot of fun this year and the other 2 years I have competed. I just hope that next year the NCPA finally decides to fix the issue of one fields' whistle affecting another field. It has happened every year I have played. Maybe it will finally be rectified.
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Old 04-18-2014, 03:56 PM #74
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A lot also seemed to be persuaded by other players and sidelines. I saw a couple instances of indecision and no penalty initially, then ppl would immediately complain/yell and then they would throw up the flag..
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Old 04-18-2014, 05:54 PM #75
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Raehl. I have no doubt you do all you can to promote this league. We thank you full heatedly. The fact you are hear responding to everyone also speaks volumes. I spoke up for the Reffing regards because it seemed an issue. I talked with several at the event that felt the same way.

Thank you for the oppurtunites to play in this league.
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:32 PM #76
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My only other complaint was that the ultimate kept seeming to find invisible hits on our snake player even though the two refs standing over him said he was clean. Seems like they're slightly more qualified to make those calls than a ref 50 feet away but that's just me.
Just to touch on this briefly, Ultimate refs that stand at the 50 are actually meant to be watching the guys running into the snake. Their angle of view is typically better than a corner ref who already has a decent amount on his plate (Anyone coming corner, delayers in the open). Not to mention distance doesn't really play a role in officiating a paintball match, we've all been able to see when we shoot someone cross field. What makes you think an ultimate can't see a different shot from 50 feet away.
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Old 04-18-2014, 09:54 PM #77
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I highly recommend everyone complaining in this forum to ref a PSP event first to truly understand how a ref thinks, makes decisions, and reacts to situations in the game. Then you will understand why a bad call was made.

I admit, my team got a few bad calls, but Ived reffed nearly 20 PSP events so I know it happens and to just let it go.
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:15 AM #78
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Ok, time to comment after reading this thread for a while. As the coach of the largest collection of teams at the event, I saw a bunch of games that I was very invested in. I saw good calls against us and for us. I saw bad calls against us and for us. There should always be a balance. Bad calls will happen because the refs are humans that are expected to see EVERYTHING while being shot at. I have also seen many of the various refs at PSP events and know they know their stuff. One thing I appreciated was the willingness of head refs on the field and Marcus taking time to investigate questionable calls that were reported to me by my players. Each time my questions were responded to and even if I didn't like the answer, it is appreciated that they took to time to help us understand. People will always be dissatisfied by refs especially when calls don't go their way.

Only bad call I can't let go: Martin Grasswick was bunked by our female player in her first tournament ever after only picking up a paintball gun in December and HE SHOULD HAVE JUST TAKEN IT...

Thanks for the event guys.
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:51 PM #79
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Ok, time to comment after reading this thread for a while. As the coach of the largest collection of teams at the event, I saw a bunch of games that I was very invested in. I saw good calls against us and for us. I saw bad calls against us and for us. There should always be a balance. Bad calls will happen because the refs are humans that are expected to see EVERYTHING while being shot at. I have also seen many of the various refs at PSP events and know they know their stuff. One thing I appreciated was the willingness of head refs on the field and Marcus taking time to investigate questionable calls that were reported to me by my players. Each time my questions were responded to and even if I didn't like the answer, it is appreciated that they took to time to help us understand. People will always be dissatisfied by refs especially when calls don't go their way.

Only bad call I can't let go: Martin Grasswick was bunked by our female player in her first tournament ever after only picking up a paintball gun in December and HE SHOULD HAVE JUST TAKEN IT...

Thanks for the event guys.
icwatudidthere

It must of been her first tournament, she completely missed. Your other first 2 players that came to get me should have gotten me. Guess I just got lucky in that 3 on 1.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:40 PM #80
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So I did not watch the event. But I do have a couple comments to add. Not trying to stir the pot at all, but it seems like most the complaining is coming from over expectant players that were pulled on semi-questionable calls. If one has ever reffed, one would realize that you do not see everything. You do not see both sides of the players but you do the very best you can. I guarundamntee you when I ref I try my hardest to call the game fair as possible. Half the time, if I ref a home-town team, I do not realize it until they say something. But in regards to the complaining, it seems like some of the stuff being complained about is like the biased articles you see on Facebook which say "power hungry cop kills nine month old baby for threat" or some crap like that. When in reality that is from a totally biased site that just gets money from hits. My point being, players complaining the refs are out to get you, and ruin your paintball experience and take all your money...just stahp. Thanks.
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