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Old 11-07-2013, 09:49 AM #22
blueshifty
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This is a general idea of what I'd try to do so I could more closely control the variables.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:54 PM #23
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Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
The second part of that solution is to put an oring on the bolt guide and basically undercut the bolt ~.3" to control the forces in the earliest stages of the cycle. It is identical to the Lurker axe bolt.
The first bolt had this, but the entire system self destructed rather quickly from the forces involved. I don't remember why I removed it from subsequent revisions, but there was a reason (I think it was causing air springing and incomplete bolt retraction).

There are a few inherent problems with the gun as a whole. One of the biggest being that the MQ does not like working below 200psi. Even with a lower force initial stage, the thing still gets hauling so fast after that there isn't a lot of benefit except for stack clipping (which is an issue). We had to find a spring force balance between only getting partial velocity shots (too stiff) and poor retraction (too weak).

The level of underbore in the gun is to a level that complicates finding paint as well. I was hand loading paint in a location where the bolt had no contact with it and was only supplying the propulsive air - turned into a sprayer every time. Gun works great with reballs though

Lack of design communication - I did the bolt systems, Ty Mcneer did the rest - we sadly did not communicate nearly as frequently as we should have in the process.

I like your conceptual bolt, it is near identical to one of the other designs I had when the first one failed, but haven't tried (yet). If the current system still blends with properly sized paint, I will make that one to try next.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:18 PM #24
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The first bolt had this, but the entire system self destructed rather quickly from the forces involved. I don't remember why I removed it from subsequent revisions, but there was a reason (I think it was causing air springing and incomplete bolt retraction).

There are a few inherent problems with the gun as a whole. One of the biggest being that the MQ does not like working below 200psi. Even with a lower force initial stage, the thing still gets hauling so fast after that there isn't a lot of benefit except for stack clipping (which is an issue). We had to find a spring force balance between only getting partial velocity shots (too stiff) and poor retraction (too weak).

The level of underbore in the gun is to a level that complicates finding paint as well. I was hand loading paint in a location where the bolt had no contact with it and was only supplying the propulsive air - turned into a sprayer every time. Gun works great with reballs though

Lack of design communication - I did the bolt systems, Ty Mcneer did the rest - we sadly did not communicate nearly as frequently as we should have in the process.

I like your conceptual bolt, it is near identical to one of the other designs I had when the first one failed, but haven't tried (yet). If the current system still blends with properly sized paint, I will make that one to try next.
I never realized the MQ valve had to run that high... crazy really. You're fighting a difficult battle for sure because you need to reduce force, yet thinning out the areas will reduce the structural integrity. I can see you having some oscillation issues inherent in the design too where are gets trapped behind the bolt and between the valve. The purge hole would really be the only solution I could come up with off the top of my head.

This project may inspire me to start my own project as well.

BTW, would enlarging the "leak" hole in the mq valve help it run a little lower pressure?
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:09 AM #25
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Now why can't the MQ run any lower pressure than that? Is it a matter of changing seal softness? I mean, in my mind it makes more sense to try and figure out a way to get the MQ valve to reliably work at lower pressures then to try and design around it.

If it is a matter of pressures not balancing then maybe design a new valve portion.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:24 AM #26
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I'm honestly not sure why it doesn't like lower pressures. Probably a combination of the bleed hole size and the need for higher shifting forces.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:35 AM #27
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Have you thought about putting an SS sleeve in the 'power tube' portion and removing the oring from that brass ctem completely. It wouldn't create a full seal, but in theory it would still be able to generate enough force to cycle the bolt... only real concern would be blow back from anything other than a full cycle. But I would think that the rate at which the gas escaped in that scenario would make that a non issue
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:40 PM #28
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Since you are using a brass body, this harkens back to "tuning" brass barrels, ecliptical honing, palmerisms, etc. Perhaps a little work with ye oldie flex home might help getting paint to fit through.
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:24 PM #29
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I still don't get why there hasn't been an effort to reduce the flow into the bolt system. I mean the general rule of thumb is that operating pressure is a result of operation and flow. If you won't change the operation and can't change the pressure, then change the flow..


Btw Spece, you are in my "cool" book just because you sig'd flogging molly
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Old 11-16-2013, 05:29 PM #30
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The paint question isn't as big a problem by me. I've literally had roll outs with some around here in my ePGP that uses the exact same brass.
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Old 11-16-2013, 05:35 PM #31
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Why would you ever want to reduce flow?
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:09 PM #32
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Quote:
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Why would you ever want to reduce flow?
If you can't drop the pressure enough to make the bolt system smoother, then limit the flow so that the system isn't so violent.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:01 PM #33
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If you can't drop the pressure enough to make the bolt system smoother, then limit the flow so that the system isn't so violent.
I kind of knew your intent, but I disagree with that solution. All it takes is some creative rebalancing of the forces.
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Old 11-17-2013, 09:43 AM #34
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The valve port in this is only 3/16" already.
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:48 PM #35
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Any updates?
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:41 PM #36
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Should be heading into the shop this weekend I think. Was planning on messing around with my BPS Reflexes anyway, and run some paint through the Aedes.
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Old 12-03-2013, 09:48 AM #37
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Should be heading into the shop this weekend I think. Was planning on messing around with my BPS Reflexes anyway, and run some paint through the Aedes.
I have a sketch that I can send you with a way to fix the bolt forces. The one I drew above will have to be kind of long to support the throw length of the bolt, plus the compressed length of the spring. Reworking the animated bolt design a little will fix all the issues you're having.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:09 PM #38
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If you want to send them over, definitely do. I live over by Ty McNeer, a machinist on MCB, and he tends to help implement changes/fixes for me. I'm interested to see how it performs with paint and air.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:38 PM #39
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If you want to send them over, definitely do. I live over by Ty McNeer, a machinist on MCB, and he tends to help implement changes/fixes for me. I'm interested to see how it performs with paint and air.
PM me your email and I'll send them that way. In order to actually dimension all of it and work the forces out for your specific application I'd need some other information about the gun. At minimum, the operating pressure, throw length, dwell, etc.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:15 PM #40
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Blending again. 3 of 10 shots were spared a terrible death.
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:51 PM #41
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Blending again. 3 of 10 shots were spared a terrible death.
If you want and would be willing... send it to me so I can take the critical dimensions (or you could send them to me if you have the tools) and I'll draw up the fix for you. Not sure what configuration you tried last, but the solution I have in mind would be very simple to machine. I'll send you the CAD details when I'm done.

If you can basically detail out the top tube I can probably have the design to you in a day or two.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:48 PM #42
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Scrapping the bolt system entirely. Marker is up with Ty McNeer for now. There has been literally nothing to to make me think this style of bolt design is feasible for the marker. We're looking at more of an ion style bolt at this point, and most likely an entirely new body. These weren't barrel breaks. They were full on chops with massive amounts of blowback coming up the feedneck. If you want to talk to Ty about the measurements, feel free. He's a friend. Depressed about the project, but hopeful the next light at the end of the tunnel isn't another train. Good idea in theory, complete wreck in practice.
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