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Old 10-30-2013, 11:35 AM #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
In the section right below where I pulled my previous quote, I already said that I pulled it primarily from the copenhagen interpretation:
And you're basing your entire view of Quantum on a single interpretation of very complex mathematics.

If you want to understand quantum, learn it. Reading about specific and somewhat limiting interpretations of math you don't understand won't get you very far.

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Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
So you don't consider Hawkings a leading physicist?
I consider him one person.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:42 AM #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
You said earlier that the mathematical models have predictive power, but they may or may not correlate to actual particles. This is contradictory.
Please read the links I posted above. That is not my works... that is the line of thought people like Hawkings subscribe to. My post was just summary of the idea. And you're still talking in circles anyway since there is no way to PROVE they DON'T exist as a duality and any attempts at measuring it collapses the waveform.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:43 AM #192
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And I would direct you to the first line in this article:

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"One can't prove that God doesn't exist," professor Stephen Hawking told ABC News. "But science makes God unnecessary."
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/stephen-ha...ry?id=11571150
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:46 AM #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
And you're basing your entire view of Quantum on a single interpretation of very complex mathematics.

If you want to understand quantum, learn it. Reading about specific and somewhat limiting interpretations of math you don't understand won't get you very far.



I consider him one person.
I am NOT basing MY view on anything. If you accept many of Hawkings theories then you have to accept ALL of the associated assumptions. This is how an algorithm works. If he built subsequent theories on this foundation (which he did) then you have to accept this as fundamental truth. I would argue to some extent you have faith in his interpretation.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:46 AM #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
And I would direct you to the first line in this article:



http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/stephen-ha...ry?id=11571150
Define necessary?
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:49 AM #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
I am NOT basing MY view on anything. If you accept many of Hawkings theories then you have to accept ALL of the associated assumptions. This is how an algorithm works. If he built subsequent theories on this foundation (which he did) then you have to accept this as fundamental truth. I would argue to some extent you have faith in his interpretation.
Just... no.

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Define necessary?
You'd have to ask professor Hawking what he meant by that.

The point being, he clearly understands you can't use science to disprove God.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:02 PM #196
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Just... no.
We're going to disagree on this. If you're going to build on equation then you have to make sure it is a valid assumption. Now where it gets weird is that the mathematical models we're talking about aren't first order observation models. The models I'm talking about (latent) in Hawkins models is an underlying mathematical model that draws off a specific interpretation of the experiement. So, in Hawkings particular case he is building on the mathematical models derived from the copenhagen interpretation. So it's second order or higher. Take that a step further (and you should know this) that he has assigned constants to make his higher order theories work. Those constants are to "correct" the data set to try to establish a higher correlation. So he has made the math work without really saying anything of consequence.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:03 PM #197
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Keep talking in generalities and of course your position is untenable. Point out specifics.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:10 PM #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
The models I'm talking about (latent) in Hawkins models is an underlying mathematical model that draws off a specific interpretation of the experiement. So, in Hawkings particular case he is building on the mathematical models derived from the copenhagen interpretation.
It's important to point out the copenhagen interpretation is an interpretation of the math, not experiment. The math of quantum mechanics describes the experiment, and copenhagen is an interpretation of that math. You can skip the copenhagen interpretation altogether to develop more detailed theories and not skip a beat. You're portraying the copenhagen interpretation as an interpretation of the experiment upon which the math is based. This is not correct.

And like F1VENOM said, you're going to have to be specific to make any kind of claim to that effect.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:11 PM #199
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...6811FN20100902

I see nothing substantiated or even provable in his book's assertion:
Quote:
God did not create the universe and the "Big Bang" was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:19 PM #200
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Originally Posted by Umami View Post
It's important to point out the copenhagen interpretation is an interpretation of the math, not experiment. The math of quantum mechanics describes the experiment, and copenhagen is an interpretation of that math. You can skip the copenhagen interpretation altogether to develop more detailed theories and not skip a beat. You're portraying the copenhagen interpretation as an interpretation of the experiment upon which the math is based. This is not correct.

And like F1VENOM said, you're going to have to be specific to make any kind of claim to that effect.
So if we're looking for the location of a quantum particle which interpretation (math model) do we use?


From Hawkings' book The Grand Design:
Quote:
We seem to be at a critical point in the history of science, in which we must alter our conception of goals and of what makes a physical theory acceptable. It appears that the fundamental numbers, and even the form, of the apparent laws of nature are not demanded by logic or physical principle. The parameters are free to take on many values and the laws to take on any form that leads to a self-consistent mathematical theory, and they do take on different values and different forms in different universes.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:20 PM #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...6811FN20100902

I see nothing substantiated or even provable in his book's assertion:
I'm not sure I agree he can make that statement, but I'm not sure it's totally unsubstantiated.

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Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
So if we're looking for the location of a quantum particle which interpretation (math model) do we use?
You've missed my point - interpretation and mathematical model are not synonymous.
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Last edited by Umami : 10-30-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:25 PM #202
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I'm an atheist with a science background and you're doing it wrong.
Not sure how you being an atheist ties into it, but could you explain to me why and how and what you think I'm doing wrong and the misguidance you see?

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Lol, I can assure you that no one here is intending to make you feel bad. Don't sweat it. We learn from our mistakes, so to say. Asserting what you believe and having it challenged can only either confirm a true belief or alert you of a potentially bad one. Iron sharpens iron and all.
Word.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:31 PM #203
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Originally Posted by Mr.Familiar View Post
Not sure how you being an atheist ties into it, but could you explain to me why and how and what you think I'm doing wrong and the misguidance you see?
You can't use science to disprove an unfalsifiable claim. It doesn't work that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philoso...urden_of_proof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:41 PM #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
I am NOT basing MY view on anything. If you accept many of Hawkings theories then you have to accept ALL of the associated assumptions. This is how an algorithm works. If he built subsequent theories on this foundation (which he did) then you have to accept this as fundamental truth. I would argue to some extent you have faith in his interpretation.
No I'm not. The last point I made had no relation to my earlier claim that there are no such "things " as waves. I happened to stumble upon a contradiction in your line of thnking regarding the mathematical models NOT the interpretations.
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:01 PM #205
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
You said earlier that the mathematical models have predictive power, but they may or may not correlate to actual particles. This is contradictory. We can calculate with a great degree of accuracy, the probability that the wave function will collapse into a particular eigenstate. Therefore the models correlate to the actual models therefore the models have predictive power. The "facts" being demonstrated in te process.
Where they end up and how they got there are 2 different things. I can guess the most plausible route described as a sinusoid, but in this particular case I can't prove it. If things exist in a duality then they are taking all routes and once, therefore, the relation to the particle in question is severed because it's now one particle at all points at once. If I measure it then I collapse the wave of probability to a vector (a direct relation to the particle in question).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
No I'm not. The last point I made had no relation to my earlier claim that there are no such "things " as waves. I happened to stumble upon a contradiction in your line of thnking regarding the mathematical models NOT the interpretations.
There is not a contradiction. With the mathematical models, we explain where they end up and if I measure it at any point then it appears to follow a wave-function. Is the actual particle really at the point math predicts it should be at a point in time? You can't know or verify it. You have correlated the point at which the wave function will collapse, but that doesn't mean that's the path the particle follows.

In this case the predictive power is useful, however, it is disconnected from the particle.


So the way I can make the best sense of this in my red-neck mind is this. Take a sheet of paper and draw a nice stack of dots however many high you'd like. Now repeat this pattern with a bunch more columns to the right. Now look at what you should have... a band of dots all the way across the page. Draw a sinusoid over the band of dots. That is what we're taking about. In any column there are a ton of dots, but the ones closest to the sinusoid are the wave form collapse. If I didn't measure it then the particle would exist in all rows simultaneously. So the math is useful as a prediction, but isn't necessarily verifiable.
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:04 PM #206
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What's your catch with a particle existing exactly in one spot?
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:13 PM #207
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What's your catch with a particle existing exactly in one spot?
I edited my post above. Maybe it clarifies, but if not just let me know.
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:25 PM #208
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I edited my post above. Maybe it clarifies, but if not just let me know.
It still doesn't explain your catch with it.

The particle doesn't follow the math, the math describes certain quantities and qualities of the particle.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:29 PM #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
You can't use science to disprove an unfalsifiable claim. It doesn't work that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philoso...urden_of_proof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
As I stated in my comments, I used science and common sense as an alliance to form my opinion. I fully know that I cannot disprove religion, and I even stated that.
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:01 AM #210
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God did
So... god is real because god says so? .... lovely.
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