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Old 10-01-2013, 11:53 AM #64
Punisher068
 
 
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Really like what you've done so far,alot of good thought in your design
I've wondered myself about copyright issues,seeing as it is a drop in kit I don't think there will be much of an issue.Hope you make these a limited production run,think there's plenty of interest,especially since current magfed are sub par markers for the most part.
Can appreciate your Tippy comments too,anyone who doesn't respect Tippmann as a manufacturer doesn't know much about paintball history.
Without them paintball wouldn't have grown to be the sport it is
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:48 PM #65
KingSky
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Yeah. Flat out awesome. The quality of your render is great, especially on the MOE+ grip. I'd like to see your Dmag done to the same quality in your render.
I seriously can barely wait to see what you come up with for a shroud and handguard.

What is your total length now? Length of pull? Did the barrell get shorter between the last two pics?
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:55 PM #66
Dzuari
 
 
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Originally Posted by Punisher068 View Post
Really like what you've done so far,alot of good thought in your design
I've wondered myself about copyright issues,seeing as it is a drop in kit I don't think there will be much of an issue.Hope you make these a limited production run,think there's plenty of interest,especially since current magfed are sub par markers for the most part.
Can appreciate your Tippy comments too,anyone who doesn't respect Tippmann as a manufacturer doesn't know much about paintball history.
Without them paintball wouldn't have grown to be the sport it is
They've definitely done a lot, When i saw they released the "How to Market Your Paintball field" book for free, it showed that they understand long term growth and that your business will prosper more in the long run if you raise the overall industry net worth even if it doesn't immediately result in $ for you.

I don't think they'd have a problem selling their components, it just means more tipx parts out their in the world which means more people spending more money to upgrade them and creating more support overall of their products.

Side note, does anyone know if tippmann bought Hammerhead Barrels? It'd be cool to do a few special edition complete marker with a 14" or 16" bang/battle stikxx barrel with a M-50 muzzle, anodized trim with powder coated top coat and maybe some custom laser engraved logos.
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Old 10-01-2013, 01:09 PM #67
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Yeah. Flat out awesome. The quality of your render is great, especially on the MOE+ grip. I'd like to see your Dmag done to the same quality in your render.
I seriously can barely wait to see what you come up with for a shroud and handguard.

What is your total length now? Length of pull? Did the barrell get shorter between the last two pics?

Over all right now is 14.6" i believe, Here is some of my ideas for different variations.

Barebones(conversion kit, w/ or w/o shroud)

Micro (current model with mini shroud, might be able to fit a small picatinny for VFG, 8" barrel)

standard(Shroud for 12 or 14" Barrels)

CQB (8-12" barrel shroud, VFG)

LMG (Something with a Rap4 Box mag if it works properly and reliably)

Sniper(special FS barrel(idk if the exist) with deployable VFG bipod)

Special editions

Or i might just build a website that allows you to pick and choose to build your own custom marker, a lot more work but would be a lot cooler.

For the sniper, Idk if there are FS barrels out there or not, if they're aren't or nothing that improves accuracy i'm going to cut that one, I don't want to sell something off a marketing gimmick to someone that doesn't realize barrel length doesn't matter when shooting a ball, only for them to later learn they got tricked by marketing. I'll still provide shrouds for long barrels, just won't be a standard package.
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Old 10-01-2013, 01:12 PM #68
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Consider an adjustable stock or longer pull stock for the sniper model?
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Old 10-01-2013, 01:15 PM #69
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Hadn't heard that about Hammerhead,I'm using one one my project with great results,Reballs don't like the rifling thou.
Several FS users recommended the HH to me,I haven't range fired FS over 100 ft yet but have seen an improvement in shots over my Freak set
It's oddly quiet for a rifled and mostly unported barrel,got a great deal on it new too
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:32 PM #70
Dzuari
 
 
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Originally Posted by Punisher068 View Post
Hadn't heard that about Hammerhead,I'm using one one my project with great results,Reballs don't like the rifling thou.
One One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher068 View Post
Several FS users recommended the HH to me,I haven't range fired FS over 100 ft yet but have seen an improvement in shots over my Freak set
It's oddly quiet for a rifled and mostly unported barrel,got a great deal on it new too
The Hammer Head is quiet? I've read that they are, which muzzle are you using?

That's one thing i really like about them with the reverse porting, it's much harder for the enemy to shoot you if they can't hear you.

I wish i had a 4th axis lathe so i could make some custom muzzles
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:34 PM #71
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Consider an adjustable stock or longer pull stock for the sniper model?
Yes, I will have to figure out a way to add one, it will probably be an upgrade or higher end version, would require a lot more components.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:51 PM #72
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Maybe use the existing adjustable MP7 style stock for an a5, and just drill and tap two screws for the mounting piece? It's not as clean, but it would give you a lot of options, like using the same two holes to attach a non adjustable butt extension that is just a piece of cheap metal that bolts on, make a couple of different lengths.

Then you've got more options and points to build on later. Down the road you could release a sniper stock with a fold out monopod and cheek riser, or a spec ops stock that is adjustable/collapsible, or a straight 1 1/2 inch extension for people that like a longer pull. Or that air in the stock option you were talking about.

Just vomiting out ideas. Thanks for reading.

Also ran into this on an airsoft sight awhile back. It has the standard m4 push button mag release on a bullpup feature i was talking about. Might be worth looking into if you're really going that route, just so you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ERM-APS-UAR.htm

I personally think it's ugly as sin, and yours is shaping up much better. But it's still pretty innovative.
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Last edited by KingSky : 10-01-2013 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:47 PM #73
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I know it's not magfed, but looky what ive found http://scenariodreams.com/store/inde...oducts_ id=25
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:16 PM #74
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Yo

Looking good! I'm sure you got my email by now - I'm not available to do extra design work, but still looking forward to how it comes out

Honestly it's looking good anyway, you don't need me :p
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:10 PM #75
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Curious to know how this is going to work moving forward - is this something that's going to be offered up to folks, and if so how much? Limited run, or are you thinking prototype and show it to one of the big name manufacturers?
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:17 AM #76
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Curious to know how this is going to work moving forward - is this something that's going to be offered up to folks, and if so how much? Limited run, or are you thinking prototype and show it to one of the big name manufacturers?
Depends on how the cost turns out and how it goes with talking to tippmann and if i can buy the internals of the tipx and assemble guns or not. Tippmann has done business with us since 87's and been a good customer to us, so if this does make it to the end you will probably always see tippmann components with any of the kits. Some will probably call it fanboyism because i'm sure there are probably more efficient valves or simpler systems out there but to have a successful business for a long time you have to make sure your customers, partners and vendors succeed also.

Ideally i'd like to sell the conversion kit and fully assembled versions, maybe have a website to customize the barrel shrouds, barrel, stock, air systems ect.

Price will be the biggest factor, we have a shop control system that tracks and calculates the entire cost of our parts for us, we input our raw material(in this case 6061-T6 billet), hourly shop rate, burden, all our workers clock in with a barcode system for every operation like molding, grinding, bansawing, CNC milling, vibratory finishing, powdercoating, ect. So we are able to calculate the cost of our parts pretty effectively.

We don't have a 5th axis CNC so i might sub out some of the smaller components to another CNC shop here in town, it's owned by a guy that started out working for us, he's also brilliant and will do excellent work.

The machine i posted a photo of is a 2 pallet with about 15Wx20Lx15H working envelope and since there is going to be a lot of cutting we might be able to clock the machine in unattended(no operator) which cuts cost drastically. We'll just have to see.

From here forward;

1. i first need to finish the barrel shroud and all my linkage components. Print them out and test the prototype.

2. a. then compile all the 2D outlines of the housings, shroud and trigger mount then send the sketches to some waterjet companies for quoting, quantities will probably be for 2, 30, 50, 100 guns. I then put those prices in our shop control software and then simulate the CNC operations for each piece, input those times and the system will calculate the cost of each piece.

2. b. I'll also quote what it will cost if i just buy bars of 6061 in 1"x5"x72", cut the lengths in house and run the machine unattended cutting away all the stock.

3. After that i will buy a few pieces of waterjet or bars of 6061 and cut 2-3 test guns for prototyping, test them thoroughly, make reversions, cut more, test thoroughly until i'm happy with the gun.

4. after all the different ways to create the components are priced, i then need to design up the steel fixtures for the CNC machine and get pricing on what that's going to cost, usually this comes out to 1-10k depending on complexity. But since i'm designing it and doing all the work myself i'll just have to pay material which should come out to under 1k and i'm also designing everything to be as simple to manufacture as possible.

5. Figure out marketing, i may just make threads like this on some paintball forums once i get a printed prototype and document the entire build, good, free guerrilla marketing. I did this with our Blower company's 671 supercharger that we have been working on for a while now and a ton of people loved it on auto forums.

Here are the original threads to that build, unfortunately the photos where linked through our facebook page and facebook reset all the URLs of the early photos, so i have to link the albums separately. Otherwise you'd be able to read the entire progress of the build on the threads. The photos in the album are in chronological order so if you know what you are looking at you can probably correlate them to the post in the threads.



http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=636663
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=421028

Album 1
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...68019&type= 3

Album 2
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...68019&type= 3

6. after all that you still have to look at other distribution, any patents and royalties(not likely for this one), liability(lawyers, safety sheets), assembly and dis-assembly guides, maintenance and replacement parts(trying to avoid that), processing and organizing support and service for the product(I already have a 7-4 job and a whole lot more.

This is very much in the infancy stage.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:43 AM #77
Dzuari
 
 
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Originally Posted by KingSky View Post
Maybe use the existing adjustable MP7 style stock for an a5, and just drill and tap two screws for the mounting piece? It's not as clean, but it would give you a lot of options, like using the same two holes to attach a non adjustable butt extension that is just a piece of cheap metal that bolts on, make a couple of different lengths.

Then you've got more options and points to build on later. Down the road you could release a sniper stock with a fold out monopod and cheek riser, or a spec ops stock that is adjustable/collapsible, or a straight 1 1/2 inch extension for people that like a longer pull. Or that air in the stock option you were talking about.

Just vomiting out ideas. Thanks for reading.

Also ran into this on an airsoft sight awhile back. It has the standard m4 push button mag release on a bullpup feature i was talking about. Might be worth looking into if you're really going that route, just so you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ERM-APS-UAR.htm

I personally think it's ugly as sin, and yours is shaping up much better. But it's still pretty innovative.
Are you referring to this stock?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipEUHHD_LmA


That's what i had in mind, i would want it to be an internal slide to make it look good, right now my biggest issue is space, i don't want to add any more thickness to it as it's already 2" and will add a lot more to the material price. There is once spot i might be able to fit it in, running along the chamber and bolt but it might not be thick enough to be sturdy. I'll see what i can do.

Idk how that button works so i'll probably have to buy one :/



As for the mag release, that's what i had in mind, a push forward button with a secondary magwell release button.


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Old 10-02-2013, 12:48 AM #78
Dzuari
 
 
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Yo

Looking good! I'm sure you got my email by now - I'm not available to do extra design work, but still looking forward to how it comes out

Honestly it's looking good anyway, you don't need me :p
Hey, I got your Email, thanks for the reply.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:20 AM #79
Dzuari
 
 
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Yeah. Flat out awesome. The quality of your render is great, especially on the MOE+ grip.


O and i didn't design the grip, its a 3D scan i pulled from grabcad.com



http://grabcad.com/library/3d-scanned-magpul-moe-grip-1

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Old 10-02-2013, 01:49 AM #80
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Cool. And yes, that is the stock. I can send you mine if you'd like, so long as I get it back some day. I bought one, cut two inches off, flipped it upside down and used it as the adjustable stock on my ION bullpup for about a year and a half until this latest revision. Worked great till I dropped it and broke the welds on the mount I custom fabricated for it, and I don't have access to a welder anymore. Any yes, internal would be ideal.

2" wide? The whole way? Why? I guess my TPX mod is about that cuz of the width of the g36 handguard I am using as a buttstock, but that is really only at the widest point. And it's all plastic and air.
Seems like it should be at about the 1 1/2 mark. Otherwise that seems like alot of metal and quite a bit of weight, even if it is aluminum.

As for the linkage arm mag release, It could cut down on cost and the complexity of the cut to use the tacamo magwell and have the linkage arm just push/pull the mag release in the back. Just a thought. The magwell is $30.

I am really just going to keep throwing out ideas so long as you post here to respond to them, I am so captivated by watching your design process like this. Thank you so much for sharing.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:06 AM #81
Dzuari
 
 
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Cool. And yes, that is the stock. I can send you mine if you'd like, so long as I get it back some day. I bought one, cut two inches off, flipped it upside down and used it as the adjustable stock on my ION bullpup for about a year and a half until this latest revision. Worked great till I dropped it and broke the welds on the mount I custom fabricated for it, and I don't have access to a welder anymore. Any yes, internal would be ideal.

2" wide? The whole way? Why? I guess my TPX mod is about that cuz of the width of the g36 handguard I am using as a buttstock, but that is really only at the widest point. And it's all plastic and air.
Seems like it should be at about the 1 1/2 mark. Otherwise that seems like alot of metal and quite a bit of weight, even if it is aluminum.

As for the linkage arm mag release, It could cut down on cost and the complexity of the cut to use the tacamo magwell and have the linkage arm just push/pull the mag release in the back. Just a thought. The magwell is $30.

I am really just going to keep throwing out ideas so long as you post here to respond to them, I am so captivated by watching your design process like this. Thank you so much for sharing.
I have to order the material in certain thicknesses, I have to order based on what ever the the thickest section is and standard billet thickness goes in 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, ext, but common sizes like 1" are very cheap, and the regulator sticks out kinda far. It will definitely be hollowed out, i'll make sure it isn't super heavy.

I'd rather just cut the magwell into the receiver, helps aesthetics and the gun look better over all.

I'll PM you on the shipping for that

Last edited by Dzuari : 10-02-2013 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:09 AM #82
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You can see the thickness here. right now it's at 2".



Those cuts i made take it down a lot though.

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Old 10-02-2013, 03:00 AM #83
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New trigger linkage, still needs a tension spring but i should now be able to add an adjustable stock.

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Old 10-02-2013, 06:41 AM #84
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While this would be awesome one of the big flaws is that of rate of fire. bullpups are normaly a cross between a pdw and standard combat rifle, without the rate of fire you compat design is not gonna get you far without spay of paint behind it. Now. i could see if you could get a extended lenth Dmag that holds 20 rounds per side with an auto switch that switches to the other row of paint in the mag automaticly you might be able to pull it off if you used something like a mini popit valve system. Use that you could reroute your wires once you found/made a good shell and attached a mag well that works with the dmags. you could then ajust your breach and barrel where it floats in the "shell" allowing you to run your tank on the top of the marker as a part of the body itself over the "stock" section of the body but thats using a 9ci tank this would also help with balancing the marker better. rather then having all the weight on front or back. but then you have a different issue in its overall wight. which if you used light weight materials in the contstruction of the shell you could reduce the wight some.
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