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Old 08-18-2013, 03:08 PM #22
sambob117
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I've been tossing the idea around of gutting an airsoft fn p90 and putting an enmey or something in and designing a paintball p90 mag to get 3d printed... potential winter project
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:45 AM #23
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Nice concept drawings vigil
Cool Ion mod KingSky,is it FS compatible?I should be ready to cut a Ion breech for FS round soon,wondered if you had any pointers
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:53 PM #24
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Holy crap the K1 is not dead!!!

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Hello everyone, its been quite a while since I posted anything on this page.... And I am sorry for that. There were 3 major issues I had to deal with during this period of time of absence. The first was a legal issue, the second a technical issue, and last it was personal.... So I will soon post more infos and details concerning K1's Status and upcoming release. And yes K1 is very much alive!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Moder...69364636420234
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:36 PM #25
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Test fired my FS Ion Bullpup this weekend,works awesome. Check my thread in the Customs section
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:14 PM #26
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Originally Posted by vijil View Post
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That's an awesome drawing.

I have actually been designing a bull pup x7 on my free time. I work for my families aluminum foundry and CNC shop and we actually produce all the 98, A5 x7 aluminum housings for Tippmann Sports. We have worked with tippmann since 87 when he came out with his first pump gun.

I'll state that i am clearly not representative, salesmen or anything else of the sort for tippmann, we are just suppliers too them for aluminum castings. We only make the outside aluminum housings, nothing else.

http://phillipspatterns.com/capabilities.html

(Model internals of an x7, spool valve on top, with the 8" barrel and bolt inline and the top of the x7 pistol grip)


I'm a CNC programmer, mold maker and CAD designer, We have a 3D printer that i can print out and prototype a gun and then program a CNC to cut out some billet aluminum prototypes. I have some youtube videos of what i do.
http://www.youtube.com/user/dzuari



The one problem i have is, i suck at coming up with a cool concept drawing like yours. I can model one and make it work but it probably wont look as cool as something you just drew.

If your up for it, i would totally model, print and test out a prototype bullpup for my x7 if you could draw one that looked really cool. Depending on the price i could probably send you one or at least really discount one.

I'd also need a cool name for it....

If enough people are interested, i might start a build thread to document the progress of it and make some videos like i did for the supercharger video on my youtube.

There is a few things to know for making something easy to manufacture(reduces price). So If your up for it, keep these things in mind when drawing.

Angles please, not round

Idk how much you may or may not know about manufacturing, but these would have to be cut out of billet aluminum(solid blocks) and simple angles are much easier/quicker to cut out on a CNC than round stuff. .Take your mouse for example, it has complex curve on it, cutting out one would be called 3D machining(your moving the machine in all 3 axis). if you pretend your finger is a round cutter(ballmill) you would have to run across it probably a couple hundred times to cut out that curves shape. Your desk on the other hand is just flat, so i can take a 4" facemill and just slice right a cross it in no time. Here is a good illistration on cutters.




here is a part that was 3D milled with a ball mill, every little line on it is the path the ballmill took to cut, as you can see, it can take a lot of time, which equals more money.



The drawing you have is perfect, there is very few places on it that would require 3D milling so i could order all the different degree endmills i need to cut those slopes with ease. The only thing that would take some time to machine would be that front grip because of the complex contours.



Center of gravity
A bullpups main purpose is to move the barrel back into the gun so that you can still keep a long barrel that a rifle uses for ranged engagements but the gun itself is shorter so its easier to weld in CQB, this also brings the guns center of gravity closer to your bodies center of gravity which reduces fatigue(try holding your arms straight out for a really long time vs just halfway extended).

Since barrel length doesn't really matter for paintball, focus more on weight distribution. You want the guns center of gravity to be as close to your trigger arm as possible because it acts as your load bearing pivot, your forward arm acts as a lever to swing it around. It's actually counter productive to move the weight as far back as possible in the stock because undoubtedly there will be times when you have to pull the gun away from your shoulder, at which point all that weight pivots like a lever and fatigues your arm quicker. I would actually switch your HPA and Dmag location to move that mass closer to the trigger hand, the front of the gun is already going to be lighter than the rear because of a bullpups natural design, the tank is only going to throw it off more, so placement of it is crucial.

Weight
One in the same with center of gravity but the lighter the better. Due to the bullpup naturally moving everything back from the trigger arm, its already going to be back heavy so some well placed slotting in the rear can help move the CoG towards the trigger arm. I like the aesthetics of the new milsig FXR.



Dimensional
Lastly, i know its hard to do with a concept drawing but here are some rough dimensions to give you an idea of the internals. As you can see, the spool valve and tank position strongly effect the position of the mag and over all design. In this iteration, i would have to make a top side box mag like a P90 to feed balls in, a Dmag wouldn't work.

On the other hand i could move the spool on top and run a dmag below, but then i have to try and run a high PSI line from the HPA tank to the valve. The little dot on the flex valve is the trigger mechanism for it, so depending on the placement of the valve, a more complex mechanism trigger system may be required. It's a give or take relationship.


Last edited by Dzuari : 09-25-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 09-24-2013, 06:53 PM #27
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I played around with putting a tank at the back behind the mag, and I just want to caution you that even a 13ci tank is bulky back there when it is vertical, and not heavy normally, but not light in that configuration. I would recommend building a design with it, and be prepared to have a design or modification to work without it.

Why an X7 instead of a TPX? The tpx chamber already exists for a fs round, an they are considerably simpler and smaller. This would give you more room to work in the lines for air, or what not.

And if you want to get in features that would really make it unique, build in an adjustable stock, make the foregrip removable on a rail, that would make it simpler and cheaper to make to, just use existing grips, or sell the integrated style grip separate to reduce cost of the base unit. Especially of the prototype.

Either way, would love to see what you come up with.

Would it be easy to mill something like this then?:


This was how I would ideally like my bullpup ion to have looked:
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:52 PM #28
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Would it be easy to mill something like this then?:


This was how I would ideally like my bullpup ion to have looked:
I like it, i prefer open shrouds, gives it more volume while keeping the weight down. Machining it wouldn't be a problem, it would probably have to be made in two haves though, maybe but cant tell from the photos.

As for the x7 vs tipx, no particular reason. I only had an x7 when i started modeling everything. I just recently got a tipx but haven't torn it apart yet to look inside. It probably would be easier and smaller but the one thing that worries me is efficiency and consistency. Is the valve in the tipx as good as the one in the x7? The Tipx would probably be lighter also. I'll tear apart mine soon and see what i can come up with. i wonder if people would want to stick with the tipx mags or prefer a dmag instead?
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:51 PM #29
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Make a magwell for dmags, then an adapter for the tipx mags.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:36 PM #30
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Some awesome concepts here,your front shroud looks similar to my SP1 I sacrificed for my build
After shopping around for mags and magwells the DYE mags are top rate although a bit bigger than Dmags,Tpx,Spyder H7,or Milsig mags.The magwell is much simpilar inside than it appears on the outside.The mags fit perfectly in my tac vest and pod holders too
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:45 PM #31
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Make a magwell for dmags, then an adapter for the tipx mags.
I went ahead and modeled the tipx internals. you where right, It would be much easier to convert a tipx to bullpup, only downside is no auto fire, i might be able to rigg up an arduino with a solenoid and fix that though.

here is the basic internals.

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Old 09-25-2013, 05:14 PM #32
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Nice! Looks about right. I was told the tipx is based on automag tech, and i know they made some electro models, might be worth the research if you really wanted it to be able to do full auto. Or look into the x7 phenom, i think they share the same valve. And since there is already an x7 phenom mag fed model made by tacamo, it could be easier to setup the air lines for a bullpup configuration.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:55 PM #33
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Nice! Looks about right. I was told the tipx is based on automag tech, and i know they made some electro models, might be worth the research if you really wanted it to be able to do full auto. Or look into the x7 phenom, i think they share the same valve. And since there is already an x7 phenom mag fed model made by tacamo, it could be easier to setup the air lines for a bullpup configuration.
I just ordered a dmag to model it, but just by looking at the distance from the chamber to the regulator, i'm afraid the dmag wont be able to reach the chamber without hitting the regulator.(that photo i posted is wrong)

I'm also wondering how i could make a adapter for a tipx mag and be able to use the same mag release that is used for the dmag. It might not be possible and require seperate magwells for each type of mag.
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:13 PM #34
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I think it could be done. The TiPX mag adapter would use a lever style (think AK) and the Dmag would use the standard Button type (M4). The Tipx adapter locks into place with the standard mag catch, and then uses it's own mag catch for the TiPX mag. Kinda like the 9mm conversion kits for the AUG if memory serves. I'm really psyched about this if you can get it work.

Did some quick mock ups in sketch up, and i think the idea could work on the old style rap4/milsig mags, or the new scarab fs mags, but not new dmags or dye mags. This is because the feedport on the old mags is in the front, on the new ones because of the fs rounds, its in the back, and the angle of the tipx mags won't let you get it lined up the feed the same. but if you modeled after the Scarab Arms tgr2 mags and mag well, it would probably work.


Just ordered a DAM magwell from DYE, it was super easy! There number is 858 536 5183, and ask to speak to the tech department and they'll set you up. No part number apparently, which is weird, but it's 20 for the part and 15 for shipping. Way better than the 120 RAP4 asks for their magwell. And the mags are cheaper too!

This thread got me itching to clean up my markers, so I grabbed some bondo, some more parts and cleaned it up a little:

Sorry for the long post. So psyched about bullpup.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:44 PM #35
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Nice 3D models and ideas there Kingsky
Awesome you got a magwell so easy
The mags really are tough,they'll actually hold 2 more balls than recommended,both the shorties and longs,super easy toolless disassembly for easy cleaning
Ill need to extend the mag followers to feed the last round
between my magwell adapter,eye and detent cover I'm short .45 in.,just below the eyes so I doesn't chop but the last round drops free when reloading

Last edited by Punisher068 : 09-25-2013 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:17 PM #36
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Nice idea, it's a lot easier to see it than try and picture it in my head.

So do you think a dye dam magwell or dmag would be better?
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:05 PM #37
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I've always had the same problem with the rap4 mags in my mod too, last round or two drops. Worst part is since mine is mechanical, if you lose count, or fire too fast and catch the last ball halfway in the stack.... Messy. And a huge pain to get at.

I honestly don't know which would be better.
I am going to find out about the dye magwell and mags. I don't know if it's possible to get just the dmag magazine well, but i did find this kit:
http://www.ultimatepaintball.com/p-1...FcN_QgodsUAAqA

It really looks like the dmag and dye mags are the same design with some minor tweaks.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:14 AM #38
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how does the dmag lock in the magwell and what is the position of the lock? I doubt it, but it would be nice to be able to use the tipx release lever in the adapter kit that way i don't have to make 2 new release mechanisms. If i do, they will have to be cut from metal or bought from rap4.

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Old 09-26-2013, 09:41 AM #39
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So I just looked at the dmag a bit more in depth, and it loads the rounds ball facing out on the mag, same as the scarab, opposite of the dye mags, so it should work with the tips mag adapter idea, depending on how the mag lines up with the mag detent release in the magwell.

As I see it, the adapter would lock in place using the standard dmag lock on the well(the m4 style mag release button that's on the outside of the well, and you just have to build the lever for the tipx mag.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:37 AM #40
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So I just looked at the dmag a bit more in depth, and it loads the rounds ball facing out on the mag, same as the scarab, opposite of the dye mags, so it should work with the tips mag adapter idea, depending on how the mag lines up with the mag detent release in the magwell.

As I see it, the adapter would lock in place using the standard dmag lock on the well(the m4 style mag release button that's on the outside of the well, and you just have to build the lever for the tipx mag.
k.

Ya i noticed that too with the DAM mags, i don't think it'd be possible to use a tipx adapter inside a DAM magwell.

I've got a basic housing modeled. It's nice that the chamber has the barrel threading so i don't have to cut threads or anything to hold it in place. My dmag should be in sometime next week but i'm afraid it will be to large and hit the regulator below the valve. In that case i either have to detach the regular and create a airline from the valve to regulator. Or, flip the valve//regulator upside down and create a new trigger linkage, could be mechanical or electric solenoid driven. I have to create a trigger extension anyways to move the grip forward to make it a bullpup, idk how i should do it though, strong cable or maybe some water jetted aluminum and then just CNC it, maybe stamped steel if it can be done.

If someone has a dmag and some dial calipers available and wants to be awesome, could you give me the width and length of the dmag so i can check the clearance of the magwell?



O and as for the trigger mechanism for the X7, it works by detecting the auto fire selection on your safety with 2 electro magnetic detectors mounted on the circuit board, your safety has a little magnet inside that crosses over the 2 sensors that activate a solenoid that pushes your trigger forward just enough to so that your finger pressure depresses the trigger again. Just like the response triggers for 98's but electrically driven instead of gas driven. It's a very tight tolerance to get it to work correctly and seat properly in the grip. I'd have to create a little housing for a magnet detector and create or buy a x7 trigger/board assembly to get that kind of auto fire. And idk if tippmann has a patent on that, i'd assume the answer is yes they do. I'd also have to run a solenoid behind the tipx valve to activate it because the kinematics of the x7 trigger wouldn't be enough travel to fire the tipx valve.... i think... educated guess, kinda. That would also defeat the purpose of dual purpose electro/mechanical capable gun.

Last edited by Dzuari : 09-26-2013 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:38 PM #41
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I think that type of trigger is called a "hall effect" trigger,my TM7 has the same system so I don't think Tippmann has exclusive rights to it,just guessing though.
Your right,it's very fussy and the trigger feels like a wet sponge on the TM7.Spacing is critical.Was going to do a magfed with it but the trigger mechanisms stopped that thought
Realized I hadn't put a pic up,here it is
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:43 PM #42
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Everything i have read and seen shows the dmag dimensions to be very close to a RAP4/Milsig magazine. Have one of those handy for guesswork? I think it's roughly 2 3/4" long on top, bout an inch wide, with the feed lining up with the front edge.
Looking at my tipx measurements, almost certain that wouldn't work then.

If a dmag doesn't work, I bet the Dye mag would actually work for the tipx setup because most of the mag sits in front of the chamber instead of behind. And you wouldn't have to machine the magwell for a prototype unless you really wanted to.

Nice renders btw. What do you use?

Edit:
Found this dmag well on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tacamo-MKV-D...em23300b c0bd
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