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Old 09-04-2013, 09:13 AM #610
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I want to start off by saying that I think the Ton Tons are a very talented team. I enjoy seeing international talent on the main circuit. I am eager to see the sport grow to more countries, and the only way that will happen is if more teams like the Ton Tons come over to America to play. I am hoping that the Ton Tons do not decide to pull away from the PSP after this, similarly to the way Joy Division was ran off the NPPL train a few years back. Do I think they intentionally cheated? Yes. Do I think 95% of the people I play against at my local field cheat every weekend? Yes. PSP dropped the hammer on the Ton Tons over this fiasco. Lets move on and not run off one of the better international teams from the best league in the world.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:16 AM #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KookieMonster View Post
To me, this is a slap on the wrist and nothing more. The PSP is not doing anything major on this. If it was cheating, they didn't handle it like it was. However they worded the release to let people read into it that it was. As for probation, to me it looks like they just are making it public that they are watching for anything they should be watching for to begin with. It looks to me that instead of it being an implied big brother is watching, they made it public in the case of the TonTons.
This decision is very appropriate. Let's go by the facts:

1. TonTons were caught shooting hot.
2. TonTons were aggressively penalized and lost the match.
3. TonTons were told they're done if it happens again.

I see a fair decision that acknowledges the team already suffered for the hot guns, and implies that the next hot gun will be their last. Without catching them chronoing with loose barrels or bringing tools onto the field, it's a knee-jerk reaction to start issuing multi-event suspensions over this. More importantly, this decision gives them a chance to make sure it doesn't happen again and move forward with their participation in the PSP, rather than spitefully kicking them out the door and telling international teams that they aren't welcome. Let's be honest here... that is the realistic perceived message any time an American league punishes a foreign team. This wasn't a whimpy decision. It was the right one - the decision made with a level headed mentality.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:23 AM #612
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So how did the investigation go against the CEP player?
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:50 AM #613
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Well.. seems like they are now on very thin ice.. this should serve as a warning to others i suppose.

Lets see if they shape up..
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:03 AM #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
This decision is very appropriate. Let's go by the facts:

1. TonTons were caught shooting hot.
2. TonTons were aggressively penalized and lost the match.
3. TonTons were told they're done if it happens again.

I see a fair decision that acknowledges the team already suffered for the hot guns, and implies that the next hot gun will be their last. Without catching them chronoing with loose barrels or bringing tools onto the field, it's a knee-jerk reaction to start issuing multi-event suspensions over this. More importantly, this decision gives them a chance to make sure it doesn't happen again and move forward with their participation in the PSP, rather than spitefully kicking them out the door and telling international teams that they aren't welcome. Let's be honest here... that is the realistic perceived message any time an American league punishes a foreign team. This wasn't a whimpy decision. It was the right one - the decision made with a level headed mentality.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:24 AM #615
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I like how the PSP acts like they're forensic investigators.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:44 AM #616
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Anyone in here who thinks they were shooting hot on purpose is a retard, unless they can say with any degree of certainty, that the Tontons had means of turning the velocity back down during games.

On that topic:
1. No board in existence can adjust velocity 50+ FPS
2. Despite footage from the game being scrutinized extensively, nobody has seen any actions indicating they were fiddling around with their regulators
3. No refs or officials has made any indication that tools were found or regulators were found to have be altered.

So, if you agree to these simple facts.... why on earth would you think any team would enter the field knowingly shooting hot, when teams are chronographed regularly, both walking onto the field, during games and at flag hangs?

The reward does not merit the risk - especially when you are a team that is - arguably - the best in the division, and would not need to resort to cheating to win.

I believe the PSP has simply felt the need to make an example out of this case, for safety and insurance purposes..... but anyone thinking the Tontons shot hot on purpose, is just showing a lack of understanding of the game at the highest level.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:55 AM #617
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( somebody still has to explain to me how to cheat and get my dm13 to shoot the first ball at 352 and all the others below 300 intentionaly.. )
I would like to know how, and were is
You won't know how. Why would they ever divulge that info?And how do you know it was the first shot was 352 and the rest were less than 300. Sorry to jump on the 'fight Nokia' campaign but you have no clue what you are talking about.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:57 AM #618
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I am sure that at the world cup tontons will chrony their guns 10 times and each time they get on the field.. If they were really cheaters, they would have been caught a long time ago, since they exist for more then 25 years and have played all over the world..
They already admitted to be being careless or negligent in chorno'ing consistantly. But anybody who's played for some time, let alone a pro, would know the difference in feeling from a gun shooting 375 and one shooting 300.
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:07 AM #619
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You won't know how. Why would they ever divulge that info?And how do you know it was the first shot was 352 and the rest were less than 300. Sorry to jump on the 'fight Nokia' campaign but you have no clue what you are talking about.
The only way that the 352 could have happened would be a creaping reg.. And you know what : thats what the tech, who investegated that gun found..

As for how, maybe because i talked to the involved player and to the tonton captain, and asked what happened and why it happened.. And if the tonton press release was not the thruth, i know that the psp would have put out a press release saying that it was not true.. I suggest you read all the pages of this thread.. Especially the first page..

But i am happy to know that you know pro paintball beter then i do.. If ever you come to europe, remind me to invite to my millenium webcast, so that you can teach me...

Last edited by Nokia6618 : 09-04-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:46 AM #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia6618 View Post

Dont worry i am still here.. I just read the psp press release.. There is a time difference between the usa and europe.

This press release proves that there was no intentional cheating..

The sanctions dont prove jack **** .. They wanted to set an example if a team unintentionaily has 4 hot guns. ( again 2 above 316 and 2 below 307 )

I never said that they were not to blaim for not taking care of their guns.. And that is what the psp blaims them for.. And i can live with that. But if the psp was thinking that the tontons have cheated intensionaly, they have excluded them from any further event. So sorry but the press release proves the contrary of what you are saying.

It set a presedent that will cary on over the years.. And it will happen to other teams in the future, and we will see how the psp or any other organisation will handle it then.. Still i would love to see that in any tournament, the refs would systematicly check every marker that comes on to the field..
Lmfao you clearly didn't understand what that press release meant. Clearly says there was intentional cheating
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:48 AM #621
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I can't figure out how they thought they WOULDN'T get caught.
this right here. refs have chronos. they get checked. i find it hard to believe it was intentionally. theres no way you would be able to get away with that. which was proven when they had hot guns.
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:49 AM #622
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They cheated on purpose Refs knew it, teams playing them knew it, crowd knew it, and psp knew it
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:59 AM #623
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Lmfao you clearly didn't understand what that press release meant. Clearly says there was intentional cheating
We probably dont read the same english.. The problem with the psp press release ( pointed out by another post ) : Saying that the players knowingly took the field could also address that they willingly didn't properly chrono, or it could mean they willingly went in with hot markers.

As much as you would like to call cheat, i am sorry to say, the facts and alĺ the evidence is against it. So you can say or think whatever you want.. Its still backed up by nothing..
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:00 PM #624
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Very lame move by PSP for penalizing them further. Not unexpected, they want the TON TON dead and not competing next season. Euro teams always getting shafted overseas...
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:04 PM #625
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On one hand I can't believe the Ton Tons would be stupid enough to do this intentionally. On the other hand, people were saying they were shooting hot for a good while.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:07 PM #626
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Sore losers tend to say stuff like that...
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:08 PM #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
Anyone in here who thinks they were shooting hot on purpose is a retard, unless they can say with any degree of certainty, that the Tontons had means of turning the velocity back down during games.

On that topic:
1. No board in existence can adjust velocity 50+ FPS
2. Despite footage from the game being scrutinized extensively, nobody has seen any actions indicating they were fiddling around with their regulators
3. No refs or officials has made any indication that tools were found or regulators were found to have be altered.

So, if you agree to these simple facts.... why on earth would you think any team would enter the field knowingly shooting hot, when teams are chronographed regularly, both walking onto the field, during games and at flag hangs?

The reward does not merit the risk - especially when you are a team that is - arguably - the best in the division, and would not need to resort to cheating to win.

I believe the PSP has simply felt the need to make an example out of this case, for safety and insurance purposes..... but anyone thinking the Tontons shot hot on purpose, is just showing a lack of understanding of the game at the highest level.
Nick --

I have no idea how anyone else in the world would think a team entered the field knowing they were shooting hot. But I think the Tontons player entered the field knowing they were shooting hot because I spoke with the Tontons player and who said they entered the field knowing they were shooting hot.

So I am someone who agrees with your 3 points and also thinks they entered the field knowing their guns were hot. And I doubt there is any question that I understand the game at the very highest level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia6618
As for how, maybe because i talked to the involved player (snip)..., and asked what happened and why it happened..
Me too. Apparently one of us heard what he wanted to hear from his favorite team. Or maybe the player you talked to lied to you. Or maybe they lied to me and wanted to be punished for something they didn't do. Or maybe, I'm lying about what they told me. Of those possibilities, only one seems to have any possibility of reasonable motive.

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But i am happy to know that you know pro paintball beter then i do.. If ever you come to europe, remind me to invite to my millenium webcast, so that you can teach me..
And if you'd ever introduced yourself to me at one of the 60+ International Professional events I've run, or the 20 plus professional world wide webcasts I've produced, or any of the hundred or so pro tournaments I've played in, you could have introduced yourself to me so that you could teach me...

Condescending psycho babble that's obviously hiding blind patriotism isn't a very good way of getting your points across. Just sayin'.

The regs were screwed up. They knew their regs were screwed up. Instead of having them changed, they chose to shoot clearing shots whereas to not be caught before the point started. They knew that after 3 or 4 shots they would be at or under the limit. They knew that if chonoed during a game while shooting they'd be at or under the limit.

I do not believe they had any intention of gaining a playing advantage. I believe they (negligently) felt the safety risk was marginal as once the started rolling the gun, and based on their intentions of continuing to shoot the guns during the match, the velocity would continue to stay at acceptable levels. That's doesn't mean that I'm OK with the thought process. But, it is my opinion that they wrongly felt like their understanding that only the first few shots being hot somehow negated the dangers of their decision.

I, unlike some others, do not think having the first 3 or 4 shots shooting at high and very inconsistent speeds is an tactical advantage. I also cannot understand why anyone with any sense would risk the penalty to have such a short lived, debatable at best, "advantage". I have talked with a lot of people who's opinions I respect and some of them disagree with my position on the advantages. But, in the end, my opinion is the one that matters. I've earned that position.

I know from the conversation with the players that they took the field with guns that they knew were outside of the limits. It is dangerous. It is arrogant. And it is unacceptable behavior from any team - much less a professional team with 20+ years of experience.

They broke the rules. They have been punished. I believe the punishment fits the circumstance and sincerely believe they've learned a lesson. If that proves to be a wrong belief and they are caught taking the field with guns in excess of the limits, regardless of the cause, regardless of their nationality, regardless of their sponsors, regardless of the opinion of Millennium webcast announcers, brilliant yet modest Danes, anonymous 15 year old forum posters, and/or Baca Loco, they will be permanently removed from PSP events.

Tonton's are a VERY good paintball team. They made mistakes in judgement and are paying the price. They'll come back better and stronger. PSP is one of the very few entities in all of the sport that is growing. Good people work for this company. The people here aren't always right. But we put the time in to try to get as much right as possible. And based on our recent track record, we seem to be doing a pretty good job of it.

It happened. It's been dealt with justly. It's over. Let it go. Go bash Obama, SEC Football, or Miley Cyrus. Hate on the things that don't really matter. But stop jumping at the opportunity to tear down the thing we all love. It's dumb.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:08 PM #628
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the psp has its version of events, the ton tons have theirs, somewhere in the middle is the truth.

edit: nvm that sounds perfectly reasonable
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:10 PM #629
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Very lame move by PSP for penalizing them further. Not unexpected, they want the TON TON dead and not competing next season. Euro teams always getting shafted overseas...
Read the press release. No further penalties or suspensions. They lost seed points in a season that already has podium positions clinched beyond their reach and were told they're welcome to play again if the hot guns don't come back. The PSP has no benefit in kicking them out... only a $15,000 loss in season entry fees.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:11 PM #630
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Very lame move by PSP for penalizing them further. Not unexpected, they want the TON TON dead and not competing next season. Euro teams always getting shafted overseas...
Damn. You figured it out. I wish you'd have caught us red handed before I spent 45 minutes figuring out how to quote 2 different posts in a reply.
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