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Old 09-04-2013, 12:11 AM #589
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where is nokia now on this. This proves that it wasn't an honest mistake. Nokia whatever number needs to get in here and express what he thinks. Clearly the psp spoke to refs and everyone there just as I said the entire time and they decided there was no doubt that there was malicious intent to cheat. Psp wouldn't do this if they didn't believe it was done by accident. Ton tons know what they did, everyone did the whole time. The people who said they are innocent until proven guilty are we good now? Are we allowed now to say that they cheated on purpose with the purpose of getting to cup in the champions division? Clearly the psp knew something was up and they conducted their investigation and found something wasn't right and they acted.

My hat goes off to the PSP, thank you for continuing to be the benchmark for tournament paintball in the world. Justice was served, the psp stepped up to the plate and showed safety of the player is more important than money. I respect the psp more than I ever have and I thank the whole psp crew Lane and all for everything.

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Old 09-04-2013, 12:16 AM #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia6618 View Post
Sorry but i am not french. I am dutch.
As for the insinuation, sorry but everybody agrees that there was NO intended cheating going on.. So you can argue what you want...
So I am curious if there was no intentional cheating going on why would the PSP do all of this?
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Old 09-04-2013, 01:56 AM #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1dayteam120 View Post
So I am curious if there was no intentional cheating going on why would the PSP do all of this?
Agreed, a back player shooting 350fps has a significant advantage throughout the game, not only off break. I look at it like PEDs in nfl/mlb.
Purposly doing something illegal to gain advantage should have stricter rules, however i understand we also have to grow the sport and cant be banning teams from over seas when we are trying to gain more.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:18 AM #592
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Originally Posted by 1dayteam120 View Post
where is nokia now on this. This proves that it wasn't an honest mistake. Nokia whatever number needs to get in here and express what he thinks. Clearly the psp spoke to refs and everyone there just as I said the entire time and they decided there was no doubt that there was malicious intent to cheat. Psp wouldn't do this if they didn't believe it was done by accident. Ton tons know what they did, everyone did the whole time. The people who said they are innocent until proven guilty are we good now? Are we allowed now to say that they cheated on purpose with the purpose of getting to cup in the champions division? Clearly the psp knew something was up and they conducted their investigation and found something wasn't right and they acted.

My hat goes off to the PSP, thank you for continuing to be the benchmark for tournament paintball in the world. Justice was served, the psp stepped up to the plate and showed safety of the player is more important than money. I respect the psp more than I ever have and I thank the whole psp crew Lane and all for everything.

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Dont worry i am still here.. I just read the psp press release.. There is a time difference between the usa and europe.

This press release proves that there was no intentional cheating..

The sanctions dont prove jack **** .. They wanted to set an example if a team unintentionaily has 4 hot guns. ( again 2 above 316 and 2 below 307 )

I never said that they were not to blaim for not taking care of their guns.. And that is what the psp blaims them for.. And i can live with that. But if the psp was thinking that the tontons have cheated intensionaly, they have excluded them from any further event. So sorry but the press release proves the contrary of what you are saying.

It set a presedent that will cary on over the years.. And it will happen to other teams in the future, and we will see how the psp or any other organisation will handle it then.. Still i would love to see that in any tournament, the refs would systematicly check every marker that comes on to the field..
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:44 AM #593
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"One or more members of the team willfully took the field with intention of playing the game while knowing their markers were in excess of allowable speed limits. The players in question showed an unjustifiable disregard for the standards in which tournament paintball can safely and fairly be conducted."

Did you miss this part? It's pretty clear.
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Old 09-04-2013, 03:54 AM #594
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I personally wonder if the psp felt their hands were tied in this matter and that if they did not conclude that the ton tons had intentionally cheated that there might be some backlash that could potentially hurt their market share in tournament paintball.

It does look bad for the ton tons, but i really doubt they would do this with intent to injure other players. It is a shame because they are a fun team to watch, but this is a good and fair ruling that should deter them from such carelessness in the future. I would like to see them competing next year and in future psp events past that.

To be fair i though everyone seems to act that they were all shooting around 350fps, 3 of the players were in my mind excessive. One was 304 fps if i am correct? The lower one is something that can happen due to paint swelling if your gun is riding the 295-300fps line.

This is a stern ruling and there will be no second chances for them so i hope that people and the ton tons learn from this.
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:52 AM #595
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I guess the two.guys that left ton tons are lucky to have left the team.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:57 AM #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underdog2987 View Post
"One or more members of the team willfully took the field with intention of playing the game while knowing their markers were in excess of allowable speed limits. The players in question showed an unjustifiable disregard for the standards in which tournament paintball can safely and fairly be conducted."

Did you miss this part? It's pretty clear.
I think the choice of words is ambigious at best in the psp press release. Especially if we take their first press release into account..

They should say : yes we think they were intentionaly cheating OR No they did not intentionaly cheat. And then explain how they came to that conclusion.

In the first press release it said no and now the say "willingly" ? Makes no sense.. And also on what grounds is this a yes or no..

If they punish the tontons for not looking after their guns, then i am 100% behind that descision.. But if they are saying that the tonton cheated intentionaly ( somebody still has to explain to me how to cheat and get my dm13 to shoot the first ball at 352 and all the others below 300 intentionaly.. )
I would like to know how, and were is the evidence..

In the first psp press release from lane ( first page pf the thread ) they say no evidence to asume intentional cheating, yes to a gun problem.. And in this one "willingly"

Sorry but this smells like a "political " descision with a lot of presure from third parties..

Last edited by Nokia6618 : 09-04-2013 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:00 AM #597
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Seems fair, glad the PSP did something about them cheating and putting another players him harms way.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:27 AM #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia6618 View Post
I think the choice of words is ambigious at best in the psp press release. Especially if we take their first press release into account..

They should say : yes we think they were intentionaly cheating OR No they did not intentionaly cheat. And then explain how they came to that conclusion.

In the first press release it said no and now the say "willingly" ? Makes no sense.. And also on what grounds is this a yes or no..

If they punish the tontons for not looking after their guns, then i am 100% behind that descision.. But if they are saying that the tonton cheated intentionaly ( somebody still has to explain to me how to cheat and get my dm13 to shoot the first ball at 352 and all the others below 300 intentionaly.. )
I would like to know how, and were is the evidence..

In the first psp press release from lane ( first page pf the thread ) they say no evidence to asume intentional cheating, yes to a gun problem.. And in this one "willingly"

Sorry but this smells like a "political " descision with a lot of presure from third parties..
I honestly think it was a political decision for them not to come out and blatantly say that they were cheating. I believe we can insinuate that they chose to cheat to gain an advantage over their opponents (not to maliciously injure their opponents, big difference here), but doing so would clearly oppose the statement released by the TonTons, which would lead to a he/she said this kind of ordeal.

I believe they chose their words carefully after several edits, but in no way believe their statement to be ambigious, it just fell short of stating the word cheating. I applaud the manner in which this decision was handled as PSP decided to wait until they had all of the testimony and evidence in hand before coming to the public. Let this be a friendly reminder to chrono your markers prior to taking the field as World Cup will soon be upon us.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:31 AM #599
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The PSP basically did nothing. Taking seed points away at the end of the season were they had not chance of winning anything except the next event
(which they still do) and probation give me a break. Anyone caught shooting that hot at any level should be suspended for a full season.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:53 AM #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiyak View Post
I honestly think it was a political decision for them not to come out and blatantly say that they were cheating. I believe we can insinuate that they chose to cheat to gain an advantage over their opponents (not to maliciously injure their opponents, big difference here), but doing so would clearly oppose the statement released by the TonTons, which would lead to a he/she said this kind of ordeal. .
ok so if you say that they chose to cheat..
so why on 08/19/13 did lane state ;

" 7. There's no evidence that the guns were intentionally set up to cheat. Nothing about the guns and what they were doing would have given any real advantage to the team using them.

The TonTon's are not dirty cheating bastards - or at least the facts of this situation do not prove or even lean toward that conclusion.

Additional penalties will be forthcoming. There is no evidence that the TonTon's engaged in intentional acts to gain advantage over teams and no evidence that malice was involved. Knowing the actual facts about what the guns were doing and/or not doing - there's no reason to believe the issues gave them any actual unfair advantage during competition. "


These are the staements made on the first page of this thread. So if they changed their minds ( against all the evidence ) i would like to know how they came to the conclusion that it is "willfully..".

we all have ssen the footage on pbaccess, we all heard their american pitcrew statements,so were is this new proof ??? or again is it only opinion.. or is it political...

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Old 09-04-2013, 07:57 AM #601
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I can't figure out how they thought they WOULDN'T get caught.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:16 AM #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia6618 View Post
They wanted to set an example if a team unintentionaily has 4 hot guns. ( again 2 above 316 and 2 below 307 )
I thought they had 3 very hot guns and that's how they had three majors. What was the third major for?


Quote:
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Sorry but this smells like a "political " descision with a lot of presure from third parties..
Now that's silly. What would any 3rd party have to gain by "pressuring" the PSP? And how would one even do that?

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I can't figure out how they thought they WOULDN'T get caught.
That's honestly what gets me. How did they not get caught earlier with the basic chrono measures? And how did they think they wouldn't get caught if their guns were simply creeping or even worse set too high?
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:28 AM #603
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I thought they had 3 very hot guns and that's how they had three majors. What was the third major for?
I thought that they received 3 majors and 1 minor.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:36 AM #604
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Ok, part of the problem here is that things are still open to interpretation. PSP didn't close th book indef on this issue. Saying that the players knowingly took the field could also address that they willingly didn't properly chrono, or it could mean they willingly went in with hot markers.

There were 2 very hot markers, the 3rd major was given in the confussion of the moment and no one caught it till after the game is what I gathered.

You do realise that the PSP is mainly a marketing tool for tournament paintball for the companies right? Without paintball companies assistance, the PSP would not be successfull.

To me, this is a slap on the wrist and nothing more. The PSP is not doing anything major on this. If it was cheating, they didn't handle it like it was. However they worded the release to let people read into it that it was. As for probation, to me it looks like they just are making it public that they are watching for anything they should be watching for to begin with. It looks to me that instead of it being an implied big brother is watching, they made it public in the case of the TonTons.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:51 AM #605
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Quote:
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I thought they had 3 very hot guns and that's how they had three majors. What was the third major for?




Now that's silly. What would any 3rd party have to gain by "pressuring" the PSP? And how would one even do that?



That's honestly what gets me. How did they not get caught earlier with the basic chrono measures? And how did they think they wouldn't get caught if their guns were simply creeping or even worse set too high?
Thats one of real problems here.. In the video you see 2 red flags and 1 yellow on the tontons. Then the ref goes to looks at afterschock and no flags.. Then we restart with 3 majors and 1 minor on the tontons and 2 minors on aftershock..
So if the ref is checking guns and not throws flags and afterwards gives 1or2minors, it is suspicious to me..

And john you forget what mickey bruno said on the webcast : "i have a grudge against the tontons since 1996.. (End of the video on paintball access )"
He made it sound like 4 guys were shooting continuesly at 350...
Rewatch the entire 1.15 video.. I did..

And last the only way to get past startgame chrono, and then shoot 1 ball at 352 and then all the other below 300 is a creaping reg.. The guns were laying in the sun for x minutes and then the presure goes up in the guns..
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:59 AM #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia6618 View Post
Thats one of real problems here.. In the video you see 2 red flags and 1 yellow on the tontons. Then the ref goes to looks at afterschock and no flags.. Then we restart with 3 majors and 1 minor on the tontons and 2 minors on aftershock..
So if the ref is checking guns and not throws flags and afterwards gives 1or2minors, it is suspicious to me..

And john you forget what mickey bruno said on the webcast : "i have a grudge against the tontons since 1996.. (End of the video on paintball access )"
He made it sound like 4 guys were shooting continuesly at 350...
Rewatch the entire 1.15 video.. I did..

And last the only way to get past startgame chrono, and then shoot 1 ball at 352 and then all the other below 300 is a creaping reg.. The guns were laying in the sun for x minutes and then the presure goes up in the guns..
Bruno doesn't control the refs, and it would be easy for him to be under the impression that they were all shooting that hot when they start down multiple bodies.

There's nothing suspicious about the delayed penalties. Hot guns caught at the end of game are often dealt with during or immediately preceding the break period. Ref catches ridiculously hot gun, then proceeds to chrono multiple players on both teams as a safety check. Ref finds hot gun during check, assesses penalty after the first flags were thrown separately. I also wouldn't be surprised if the ref chronoing guns waited to hear what his ultimate has to say before causing a ****storm with more penalties, causing a further delay.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:02 AM #607
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I feel like since the Ton Tons were't caught turnung up their regs it can't be proven they were intentionally cheating. Do we all feel they knew what they were doing? Absolutely, but if they weren't caught doing it red handed than they can't be accused of it. What they can be accused of and were guilty of was being negligent. You know if your gun is shooting hot, so they probably just did nothing about it. The PSP can't go around kicking teams out because that could turn off other teams from joining. It might be a slap on the wrist but that slap can become a kick in the *** out of the door if they cheat again.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:02 AM #608
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where is nokia now on this. This proves that it wasn't an honest mistake. Nokia whatever number needs to get in here and express what he thinks. Clearly the psp spoke to refs and everyone there just as I said the entire time and they decided there was no doubt that there was malicious intent to cheat. Psp wouldn't do this if they didn't believe it was done by accident. Ton tons know what they did, everyone did the whole time. The people who said they are innocent until proven guilty are we good now? Are we allowed now to say that they cheated on purpose with the purpose of getting to cup in the champions division? Clearly the psp knew something was up and they conducted their investigation and found something wasn't right and they acted.
This doesn't prove that they did anything intentionally. The thing about a player "willingly stepping on the field" is just the wording of a player stepping onto the field with a hot gun. This wasn't a real trial...this is just how the PSP chose to handle the situation. It doesn't prove anything conclusively though.

I think it was a good move, regardless of my opinion of whether or not it was intentional. If we are trying to grow this sport, then there has to be repercussions for breaking the rules, especially at the highest level of the game.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:09 AM #609
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I feel like since the Ton Tons were't caught turnung up their regs it can't be proven they were intentionally cheating. Do we all feel they knew what they were doing? Absolutely, but if they weren't caught doing it red handed than they can't be accused of it. What they can be accused of and were guilty of was being negligent. You know if your gun is shooting hot, so they probably just did nothing about it. The PSP can't go around kicking teams out because that could turn off other teams from joining. It might be a slap on the wrist but that slap can become a kick in the *** out of the door if they cheat again.
I am sure that at the world cup tontons will chrony their guns 10 times and each time they get on the field.. If they were really cheaters, they would have been caught a long time ago, since they exist for more then 25 years and have played all over the world..
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