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Old 08-09-2013, 05:41 PM #1
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Er, apparently Tippmann sucks?

Okay, full disclosure - I played paintball once in my life, and I genuinely didn't enjoy it. A giant field full of inflatable things, and packed with kids and adults running amok shooting at everyone. Confusing, frantic, and completely chaotic.

At a wedding recently, I got to talking with a guy who's very much into paintball and "educated" me somewhat on the different styles. He's very much a woodsballer, and from speaking with him, sounded like something I'd enjoy a lot more than speedball. After doing considerable sniffing around, primarily on Youtube and some forums, I definitely want to give it a shot. (Pun intended)

So began researching what marker to get. I'm an adult with a decent job, so not on a hyper-tight budget, but I do have a massive caveat - a wife who's REALLY sick of me having relatively expensive hobbies. As such, snagging some paintball equipment is something I'll have to do on the quiet. As such, I've figured that I've got about a $300 or so budget to start with for the marker (so that budget doesn't include the mask, HPA tank, clothing, etc.)

Bloke I spoke to at the wedding uses a Tippmann A5, and he's modded the bejaysus out of it. Said it's an ideal gun to start with because of the sheer volume of addons you can buy. From looking around further, I started thinking of a used 2011 A5 with egrip, which seem to run around $200 shipped on ebay, and thought I could use the remaining budget to add a few initial mods (with the idea that I can add to the marker over time).

Then I came across the X7 Phenom with egrip, which by all accounts SEEMS like a much better gun. That's a little bit outside the budget, they seem to go for about $300 plus shipping, but figured it was definitely worth a look.

Based on those two options, I asked for advice on which one to go for on another forum, and was immediately told by several folks that the Tippmanns were junk, and I would be MUCH better off going with a GOG-G1, BT-TM15, or better yet a Tiberius Arms T9.1. Was honestly quite shocked at the vitriol against them - almost every woodsball YouTube vid I've seen seems to have A5s all over the place, and I've watched dozens of clips of folks showing off their massively modded Tippmanns, and proclaiming love for them. But these folks seem quite unanimous that they're junk, and the only thing that was a bigger waste of money than buying one was spending money on upgrades and mods. Quite a few even pointed out that Milsim guns in general are nowhere near as good as a speedball gun, and it was just all for looks.

Anyways, since there's a dedicated woodsball forum in here, wanted to pose these questions to you guys, basically boiling down to advice on a first marker with that budget I had in mind - are either Tippmanns fine to use, or should I really be avoiding them and looking elsewhere?

Cheers in advance.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:56 PM #2
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Tippmanns are very reliable and used by all sorts of players however you can't compare tippmanns to thousand dollar or 500 dollar and higher speedball guns. I would go for the x7 phenom or the g1. The g1 is great but you can upgrade the phenom to mag fed which is great cause then you can shoot first strikes (bullet shaped rounds).
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:02 PM #3
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As much as anyone may kick,scream and or cry out against Tippmann the truth is they are a staple in paintball.. Anything from the sl68s and the basic 98s..

Tippman markers take a beating and continue to get the job donethey are easy enough to maintain that anyone could just about trouble shoot and fix them.

They may not alwaya be the prettiiest girl at the prom but at the wnd of the day it will perform.

The marker of choice boils down to personal prefference and 9/10 times when someone gripes about it its becuase user error (same as any marker just about) once someone has a bad taste in thwir mouth they will continue with that way of thinking.

Sp1/gog peoplw love them.. People hate them..
People who love them know their markers past and present qork.. And they work well.
Those who hate them only do so due to a chip they carry on their shoulder from the ethis of the company in the past (im talking YEARS AND YEARS)

Tiberius.. Great markers.. They work damn well.. But for a first marker may or may not be in your budget unless used and then there is thw maintenence.. Thwy can be tricky to work with for alot of people but if you are mechanicly inclinded and dont mind a possibly challenge.. Go for it..

Again.. It boils down to the player.. You.. Who will be using it and spending the money.

My suggestion if possible hit up a local field and check out equipment others are using.. Ask a few throughout the day if they mind if you take a few shots (be sure to offer thwm some paint for what you use) to get a feel for the marker.


It will help you make a more hands on informed choice..

Good luck and welcome aboard..
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:15 PM #4
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Since I'm on a roll with posting today I'll reply to this one too since I also like it.

Tippmanns performance aren't great by no means but man those things LAST. Why are they used as rentals? You can go YEARS without touching one and it'll shoot. The thing breaks in half before it stops shooting. An a5 vs a Phenom? Phenom wins. It's just better. Spool vs Blowback. Get the 98 if your REALLY REALLY tight on a budget but don't put anything on it. Seriously. Just a decent electronic hopper for like 40$.

Getting into woodsball and want an end all gun for it? The Phenom is probably the better choice of the three tippmans. Why? Phenom can go MKP from rap4 and be mag fed with Dmags. I also think they have the lok-bolt out for MKP's nowadays. I forget. Correct me someone?

Anyways that's the only true upgrade a phenom needs and that's if you want TRUE milsim. Other than that it's all asthetic. The cyclone just works. Enough said. Empire's guns are nice but are true-electro's; their feeding style might be a little bit better but not by TOO much; an a5/98/phenom does not need batteries. If you want the idea of a electronic woodsball gun again definitely get the phenom electro because it CAN use batteries, but can switch to mechanical mode. Something only it and the crossover and do.

Are tippmanns bad first guns? Definitely not... If your trying to play some D1 speedball tournament a tippmann wouldn't cut it. But your not.

However, a Phenom can be cut down small enough to rock on a speedball field if need be. So can an A5, but as I said, the Phenom is better. One is blowback, the other is a spool. Your only other choice than can compete at this rate is probably the DAM if you want to blow 1000$ on just the gun. Which you said you don't.

Anyways.. End all matters.. Buy the Phenom. If you want tacti-cool get asthetic upgrades later. If you want to take it a step further, make it mag-fed. You are not playing speedball with these things; but if you wanted you totally could.

Keep in mind an actual "Speedball" gun is better than all of these but they are not as rugged and aren't quite as "tacticool" or can't be magfed. Why do people hate on tippmanns? Because people buy them for 3000$ brand new with 300lb's of tactical gear for woodsball, end up not playing woodsball and play speedball, or don't use the gear for woodsball, try to sell it because they never use any of that tactical gear, can't get 30$ for it, complain, hate, buy a different gun, throw that tippmann away, and don't get the point of buying the gun in the first place. You are buying a woodsball gun. Not a speedball/tournament gun. It is performance vs looks, but some woodsball guns can reasonably give both. (DAM, Phenom)

In the end:

Woodsball vs Speedball oriented guns argument is all it is.

Looks vs functionality.

Some do both great and still "look cool", can be magfed, and can shoot first strikes. (Phenom, DAM.)

Speedball guns are great performers, need more care, are purely electronic, don't look quite as "tactical", can't be magfed, don't shoot first strikes.

Smart choice? The speedball gun because it can do both. If your truly sure you are just woodsball and want to look tactical? Get a woodsball marker.. Specifically the Phenom. Go mow down some fools with it and don't look back.

Last edited by Vysen : 08-09-2013 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Whoops. Typo.
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:18 PM #5
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I'll throw this out there for you..

When I first started playing in 99, I immediately jumped on the Cocker bus... But the field I worked for used 98's as rentals... Well business slowed WAY down and the 98's were tossed into a leaking storage shed...

in 2k4 when returning from a deployment I stopped in and noticed the field had a lot of business going on. So I asked the owner where the 98's were and why he was using Spyders... well being a lazy owner he said they were in an the shed still and he figured they didn't work. Being a Gun tech I thought of as a challenge to get them working again so I pulled out all 15 of them covered in junk, grass and even mud...

filled a co2 tank and started attaching it to each one.. out of the 15 guns only 3 leaked and it was a simple O-ring change...


Bottom line id TIPPMANN'S ARE TANKS AND LAST FOREVER... The current field I tech for uses nothing but tippmanns for rentals and I only change out an oring here and there.. I have a buddy tech that works for another field that uses other rentals and he hates it cause he always has 5 to 8 guns on his desk needing repairs..

go with Tippmann
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:32 PM #6
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Definitely agree that comparing an A5 to an Empire Axe is completely offside, it's just apples to oranges. I sort of got the impression that the speedball/tournament vs woodsball/milsim is sort of like the skiing vs snowboard debate, or road biking vs mountain biking. One is (by default) a bit grungier and utilitarian, and the other is shiny and a little bit elitist (certainly not saying that everyone who uses electric markers and play tournament are elitist, but I did get that tone from some folks)

In terms of looks, I honestly think that the milsim markers look SO much better than the neon anodized electric guns out there. Personal preference though, again not everyone will agree. I do see where folks are coming from when they say that a lot of the modifications done to Tippmann guns are counter-productive, just adding weight for the sake of appearance. (Stocks and barrels are obviously useful, but things like fake magazines, shrouds, etc. to make them look realistic without actual function)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoX13 View Post
...may or may not be in your budget unless used and then there is thw maintenence.. They can be tricky to work with for a lot of people but if you are mechanicly inclinded and dont mind a possibly challenge.. Go for it..
I am indeed fairly useful with my paws, so not massively scared of used. I've been planning all along to go that route, since I can obviously get a lot more for my money. Think at this point I've narrowed it down to either the X7 Phenom (seeing them used for about $250 in the BST) or the GOG G1. Like the idea of going magfeed down the road, but want it as an option, so shying away from the T9.1, and by all accounts the Phenom is worth the extra few bucks over an A5 with egrip.
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:45 PM #7
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Haha, this is the complete opposite of the other forum I was on (wish I could remember which one, dumped my cache and haven't gone back there) where everyone chiming in is in favour of the Tippmanns.

Think I've decided on the Phenom, then. I'll sniff around the BST and see what's out there. The GOG looks nice, but love the upgrade options on the Tippmann, and unless I'm horribly mistaken, there's nothing that the GOG really has that the Tippmann doesn't? (Comes as standard with a stock, and a better barrel - but these are hardly dealbreakers, especially if the GOG is that much more difficult to maintain?)
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:51 PM #8
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Honestly in a woodsball gun this is what it is pretty much all about:


Can it look tacti-cool? Can it take being in rain? Co2 or No2 only? Magfed or not or both? Electronic or not or both? Efficiency? And hey; maybe even sound signature?

That's about it. You answer what you want here and then with your 300 dollar budget I'm sure you'll know your options. I truly think in your budget for what you want the Phenom is the best bet. It wins in pretty much everything, is versatile, can be magfed or not, can be electronic AND mechanical all at once, runs Co2 and No2, not affected by rain, is a tippmann-tank, etc, etc, and can be found cheap.

I truly think unless you plan on playing tournaments, want an OLED screen, or some crazy luxe 2.0 performance, you are fine with it. If you have the slightest thought of "Maybe I can like speedball?" or "I have no interest in mag-fed" drop woodsball oriented guns completely and move on. That's it. They will probably not be for you.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:00 PM #9
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Haha, this is the complete opposite of the other forum I was on (wish I could remember which one, dumped my cache and haven't gone back there) where everyone chiming in is in favour of the Tippmanns.

Think I've decided on the Phenom, then. I'll sniff around the BST and see what's out there. The GOG looks nice, but love the upgrade options on the Tippmann, and unless I'm horribly mistaken, there's nothing that the GOG really has that the Tippmann doesn't? (Comes as standard with a stock, and a better barrel - but these are hardly dealbreakers, especially if the GOG is that much more difficult to maintain?)
Only major difference if you are.reffering to the gog G1/sp1 is one is wlectronic and the tippmans are mech.

Both can get wet ,play in rain ect.. (yes,an electronic that doesnt need to be pampered)

one has a hopper thats offset the other has one dirrectly uptop .

The g1 /sp1 is lite
tippmans can get hefty..

Either way both companies are good for the money.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:02 PM #10
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Quote:
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Honestly in a woodsball gun this is what it is pretty much all about:

Can it look tacti-cool? Can it take being in rain? Co2 or No2 only? Magfed or not or both? Electronic or not or both? Efficiency? And hey; maybe even sound signature?

That's about it. You answer what you want here and then with your 300 dollar budget I'm sure you'll know your options. I truly think in your budget for what you want the Phenom is the best bet. It wins in pretty much everything, is versatile, can be magfed or not, can be electronic AND mechanical all at once, runs Co2 and No2, not affected by rain, is a tippmann-tank, etc, etc, and can be found cheap.

I truly think unless you plan on playing tournaments, want an OLED screen, or some crazy luxe 2.0 performance, you are fine with it. If you have the slightest thought of "Maybe I can like speedball?" or "I have no interest in mag-fed" drop woodsball oriented guns completely and move on. That's it. They will probably not be for you.
Honestly think that appearances are secondary, but like I said further up, when I think of "a good looking gun" I'd tend to go with something like this:



as opposed to something like this:



And as mentioned, my idea of fun certainly wasn't running around in a field full of inflatables, amidst utter chaos. So don't think speedball is really my thing. And even on the off chance it does become my thing (one in a million shot) then I'd assume I can sell the woodsball gun at not an overwhelming loss (unlike some people, especially on ebay or Craigslist, I don't assume that something I buy and own for a few years doesn't depreciate!)

Vysen, definitely looks like the X7 ticks all the boxes, and thanks for the feedback (and from everyone else). How much is a fair price for a used one in decent condition? I see a few in the BST for $250-$300, but most people seem to be offering about $200-225. Am assuming somewhere in between?
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:02 PM #11
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I still have my A5, and it still works as good now as it did the day I bought it.

I would suggest the SP1. ANS is selling the brand new for $129.95. They are very solid and reliable.

Personally I would not buy a Phenom due to the ratchet in the Cyclone feeder. That is the weak link to both the A5 and the Phenom and is the only part to ever fail on my A5. It sucks when a $2.00 part takes you out of a game.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:05 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vysen View Post
Since I'm on a roll with posting today I'll reply to this one too since I also like it.

Tippmanns performance aren't great by no means but man those things LAST. Why are they used as rentals? You can go YEARS without touching one and it'll shoot. The thing breaks in half before it stops shooting. An a5 vs a Phenom? Phenom wins. It's just better. Spool vs Blowback. Get the 98 if your REALLY REALLY tight on a budget but don't put anything on it. Seriously. Just a decent electronic hopper for like 40$.

Getting into woodsball and want an end all gun for it? The Phenom is probably the better choice of the three tippmans. Why? Phenom can go MKP from rap4 and be mag fed with Dmags. I also think they have the lok-bolt out for MKP's nowadays. I forget. Correct me someone?

Anyways that's the only true upgrade a phenom needs and that's if you want TRUE milsim. Other than that it's all asthetic. The cyclone just works. Enough said. Empire's guns are nice but are true-electro's; their feeding style might be a little bit better but not by TOO much; an a5/98/phenom does not need batteries. If you want the idea of a electronic woodsball gun again definitely get the phenom electro because it CAN use batteries, but can switch to mechanical mode. Something only it and the crossover and do.

Are tippmanns bad first guns? Definitely not... If your trying to play some D1 speedball tournament a tippmann wouldn't cut it. But your not.

However, a Phenom can be cut down small enough to rock on a speedball field if need be. So can an A5, but as I said, the Phenom is better. One is blowback, the other is a spool. Your only other choice than can compete at this rate is probably the DAM if you want to blow 1000$ on just the gun. Which you said you don't.

Anyways.. End all matters.. Buy the Phenom. If you want tacti-cool get asthetic upgrades later. If you want to take it a step further, make it mag-fed. You are not playing speedball with these things; but if you wanted you totally could.

Keep in mind an actual "Speedball" gun is better than all of these but they are not as rugged and aren't quite as "tacticool" or can't be magfed. Why do people hate on tippmanns? Because people buy them for 3000$ brand new with 300lb's of tactical gear for woodsball, end up not playing woodsball and play speedball, or don't use the gear for woodsball, try to sell it because they never use any of that tactical gear, can't get 30$ for it, complain, hate, buy a different gun, throw that tippmann away, and don't get the point of buying the gun in the first place. You are buying a woodsball gun. Not a speedball/tournament gun. It is performance vs looks, but some woodsball guns can reasonably give both. (DAM, Phenom)

In the end:

Woodsball vs Speedball oriented guns argument is all it is.

Looks vs functionality.

Some do both great and still "look cool", can be magfed, and can shoot first strikes. (Phenom, DAM.)

Speedball guns are great performers, need more care, are purely electronic, don't look quite as "tactical", can't be magfed, don't shoot first strikes.

Smart choice? The speedball gun because it can do both. If your truly sure you are just woodsball and want to look tactical? Get a woodsball marker.. Specifically the Phenom. Go mow down some fools with it and don't look back.
Lok bolt is out soon for the mkp ii and also the first strike bolt. Some even say tht the lok bolt is better than eyes...
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:07 PM #13
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Funny, the nation isn't normally known for its sage advice!

As others have said, Phenom is probably the best option. The SP1 is one heck of a price too and is exactly the same marker as a GOG G1 (besides maybe the feedneck).

Just make sure that's your second priority. First priority should always be a mask - and that needs to be included in your budget. The Dye i4s are highly regarded since they don't tend to get in the way of a stock too much. If you find those too small the e-flex is great, along with things like the proto axis, grillz, so on. You want a dual pane thermal lens to avoid fog.

Which raises a point: stocks are just for looks. They aren't needed in paintball since there's no recoil to speak of, and when wearing a paintball mask it's almost impossible to sight properly with one unless you've got acres of risers under whatever sight you use (not that sights are all that useful either unless you're shooting First Strike shaped rounds).

Generally speaking, mounting the tank on the grip and using that as a stock is the most comfortable option. It just comes down to how tacticool you want to look.

Likewise with barrels - a barrel is a barrel is a barrel, what makes a difference to accuracy is the bore size and even then it's not much. The price of the barrel makes almost no difference, and rifling is purely a gimmick and only works with FS (shaped) paintballs. The length of the barrel makes approximately... zero difference. A backspin barrel however such as the Tippmann flatline or a BT Apex will make a genuine difference to your experience even if it doesn't technically increase accuracy.

Also, don't be too hard on speedball. Playing with random walkons is a very, very different experience to playing in a more organised environment where players use teamwork and tactics. I started with largely the opposite induction - woodsball involved too much walking around and waiting with minimal action inbetween, speedball was all action all the time and felt like more of a sport. I was lucky enough to hang out with a team of very cool guys who ran me through all sorts of drills and squad tactics on a level I rarely if ever see in woodsballers. So don't be too hasty to be harsh - play with the right people and it's a great experience.

Since then I've gradually grown an interest in woodsball and eventually magfed. Now I just play ALL the paintballs!

Speedball guns are an aquired taste looks wise, but that Axe will never start looking good. Try this.

Last edited by vijil : 08-09-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:08 PM #14
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I still have my A5, and it still works as good now as it did the day I bought it.

I would suggest the SP1. ANS is selling the brand new for $129.95. They are very solid and reliable.

Personally I would not buy a Phenom due to the ratchet in the Cyclone feeder. That is the weak link to both the A5 and the Phenom and is the only part to ever fail on my A5. It sucks when a $2.00 part takes you out of a game.
Well tech t makes some upgrades for the cyclone to stop that from happening.
Btw there is a forum dedicated to the x7 and mag fed guns. http://www.x7og.net/

Last edited by george919 : 08-09-2013 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:37 PM #15
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Funny, the nation isn't normally known for its sage advice!

As others have said, Phenom is probably the best option. The SP1 is one heck of a price too and is exactly the same marker as a GOG G1 (besides maybe the feedneck).

Just make sure that's your second priority. First priority should always be a mask - and that needs to be included in your budget.
Yessir, that's a separate budget. Was basically thinking $500 total, which broke down to $300 for the marker, $125 for the mask and tank (used... already have several CO2 tanks from my homebrewing setup to use as well), and the other $75 in misc stuff like a pair of BDU pants and balls.

As to the advice, I did read somewhere that the nation was 25% extremely cool and knowledgeable people, and 75% teenage kids who like to textspeak at each other. *IF* that's actually the case, certainly seems I've lucked out in terms of who chose to chime in to my wee thread.

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Only major difference if you are.reffering to the gog G1/sp1 is one is wlectronic and the tippmans are mech.
Is the Phenom (with egrip) not both mech and electronic? As in all the benefits of electric, but if the battery craps out for whatever reason, it can be returned to mech mode at the flick of a switch?
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:42 PM #16
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Is the Phenom (with egrip) not both mech and electronic? As in all the benefits of electric, but if the battery craps out for whatever reason, it can be returned to mech mode at the flick of a switch?
That it is, but with egrip it's up closer to $400. You can probably start with the mech one for 300 and upgrade later if you like.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:48 PM #17
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There is also tippmann and their customer service/ warranty
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:41 PM #18
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The Phenom Electro is in fact both mech and electronic. Its just a turn of the switch, same as a normal safety. It just flicks safety, to mechanical, to electronic.

As for price? Majority on here lowballs and most people sell higher because they KNOW people will low ball. Try x7og.net if you want even more information on the gun, ideas, and possibly find deals for it.

As for a price with the electronics? I'd say 150-250$ is probably a pretty great price range to pick one up at and wouldn't go above that and I'd take a good look at what people are buying/selling them for also as you already were. You might score someone not doing their homework and selling one wayy under price and snag it before someone else and you'll also stop yourself from buying one way over priced.

I'd also get it as stock as possible and put what you like on it; one piece at a time and buy used as much as possible. Sometimes a certain stock/shroud/whatever isn't for you, is too big, doesn't go with everything, whatever. It's woodsball.. Whatever you have that is nice new and shiny won't be for long and in the end you'll get more bang for that 300$. Oh and check out Killjoy industries for Stock shims whenever you buy a stock for your gun; most stocks don't fit perfectly and wiggle that helps prevent this..

Also when it comes to buying stuff for your gun I'd also recommend getting a good barrel/barrel kit, its the only true thing that typically helps in performance. Just stay away from freaks/techt because I find they are a pain to change bore sizes with a shroud on your gun. If you don't want to spend money on a full barrel kit, start with 1 barrel. I think the Phenom's stock barrel's bore size is way to big if I remember; again someone correct me!

Find something close to .687-.689 bore size for cheap; it's typically the perfect barrel size. As for length? Doesn't affect anything but looks, sound and how much air you use. Stay at around 12-14inches for the most effective gains.

Oh and cheap barrels? Custom products. Great stuff and cheap. And their little logo is easily covered by a shroud.


Want to go mag fed? Get the MKP 2 kit not the first gen.. Also make sure it's D-mags or Milsig mags (I think those work with D-mag's..). As someone else stated there are bolts coming out for the phenom that should help make it run full-auto more efficiently and effectively when it is mag-fed.

And of course do your homework on everything! Woodsball is filled with all these crazy "myths" on things.

Anyways:

The x7og.net collection of sites is a Great site/group of people for woods ball and scenario play.

I think I covered pretty much everything you need to know when buying your stuff. I'd recommend a good barrel > aesthetic upgrades. Also you could look into the Apex 2 system which isn't for everyone but does give a nice little look and helps add distance.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:23 PM #19
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Im going to be honest here you should get the gog g1 which is basically a smart parts sp1 if you can get a sp1 with a blackheart board that is the best choice in my opinion with the blackheart upgraded sp1 it comes with the board and lazer eyes which in my opinion is the best option because on the blackheart sp1 you get a soft tip bolt an updated board and lazer eyes to prevent chopping plus its smooth and has alot of upgrades like you can get a stock (which by the way is worthless in my opinion) ,a double trigger kit to improve semi automatic rates of fire and its ion/impulse threaded so you can get alot of different barrels oh and like the phenom its regulated and has a center feed so your hopper does not get stuck out the side of the gun

oh and if you go with the sp1 use HPA not CO2 on the gun


hope this helped
-Gabe
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:35 PM #20
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/\ so true, it's the best of two worlds woods ball/speedball, btw I have an extcy which is pretty much the same and I love mine
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:37 PM #21
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And the winner for the longest sentence in the milsim forum is...

;P

I'll be picking up a Phenom with MKP2 kit at some point, for the record. Seems like the best option all round.

Last edited by vijil : 08-09-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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