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Old 05-16-2013, 03:56 PM #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
That depends on how you like your cup of fundamentalism. How you feel about ham-fisting ideology is a good litmus test for what beliefs you subsribe to, and how fundamentally they form the core of your beliefs.

The people who proselytize alternative energy sources are on par with those who do the same for Jesus. I doubt many have considered what it is exactly that the alternatives are meant to do, but I can guarantee that it is under the faith that the alternatives will be able to provide the same abundant output we enjoy. Or put simply, maintain the status quo.

People who insists vehemently these days that we need to change our ways and leave less of a footprint are living with all the amenities of middle and upper class life. In an essence they are the problem. It is like listening to the hyprocrite preacher who cheats on his wife wit another man.

It just so happens that both movements failed bitterly. Coincidently, each managed to pass through the membrane of Church and State to their respective homes in the Democratic and Republican Parties. Which is how things like the EPA and DOMA are able to come into existence.

The cheerful optimistism that once guided these movements to prominence is replaced by apocalyptic fetishism. Don't believe me? Look at all the doomsday scenarios surrounding the loss of faith in Christ and the failure to launch alternative energy.

Is protecting the environment a good thing? Yes.

Are loving thy neighbor and honoring thy mother and father good things? Yes.

Are maladaptive mythologies based on indeterminite future utopias good things? No.
I'm in partial agreement with you and I guess more agreement after your post that follows FE's reply to me.

(I may be slightly interested in your usage of fundamentalism, but it's separate from the issue at hand.)

The government has to do something about this in order to initiate change. It is better for the overall harmony between one another and between us and our Earth to lay the least damage upon it. You speak of middle and upper class being at some sort of fault for not transcending the lifestyles of the poor, but as any advancement in technology goes, the rich will always be the first to benefit until the demand grows high enough for the poor to afford it.

You are correct though; there is definitely a fetishism for the proposed apocalyptic outcome due to not switching energy sources and it's an absurdity that has ruined the image of how and why we should be looking in to such future technologies.

This leads me back to what I was getting at: the government is really the only entity alive that can push us towards this goal. It's a dangerous route to have open, I definitely agree. But I see no other option for a culture deeply entrenched in selfishness for personal luxuries and enjoyment at the expense of all other things. Consumerism has taken a priority to damn near everyone's lives in this country and most of the Western nations. While I see the want and need to change this way of life, the length in which the process would take is great enough for us to consider how to correct things in the meantime.

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I'm all for clean energy. In fact I have a super high efficiency heat pump/propane system in my house that cost about 3X a normal system as I knew I was staying in my house long term, and the lower monthly costs would pay for the system in 5 years (which they did, and now I have on average 30% lower costs to heat/ac my house as long as the unit lasts).

But, the problem is when government starts picking winners and losers instead of letting the free market make those determinations. Government is never good a doing things well, but the free market is.

So if something is really good, consumers will flock to it. A good example is the "green" car. These are currently dual fuel systems, (battery driven motor/combustion engine). The government is spending tons of our tax dollars to push these cars, and what do we get from them?

A car that has batteries that last 5-7 years max... When the typical life of a car is 13-20 years... So clearly there is a HUGE problem there, as the batteries cost $3-$5,000 to replace. And they fill landfills with toxic waste when they go bad, plus they use rare earth elements that are very expensive to glean from the earth.

And you can get the same gas mileage with clean diesel, or a Honda civic...

But, no government benefit from those as they are "nasty fossil fuels". As if the green cars don't run on the same thing...

So yeah, I'm all for stuff that makes economic sense, I personally drive a Ton, so I drive a car that gets close to 30mpg. Did I get a government spiff for that... Nope, because my car is just a regular fossil fuel car without "special" batteries that go bad so quick. But, it makes sense in the free marketplace!
Consumer have proven to us that electric cars can work in the free market. Tesla has been doing much better than expected. While I fully warrant the worry in the toxicity of spent batteries, I believe that the majority of those driving electric cars don't actually drive them that much (their range is rather lacking for a single charge). I don't want to weigh on that side as an assumption though.

This does not mean alternative energy sources shouldn't be used or researched further though. Battery technology has been booming and, should the demand prove high enough, will only grow in advancements as time goes by. On the other hand, we have even cleaner alternative like hydrogen fuel cells, algae, and others that are in their infantile stages. Nobody is going to buy these products without them being rigorously tested and proven. And nobody is going to rigorously test them without money. This is where government is necessary to fund such things.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:59 PM #128
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Originally Posted by $h@key J0nEZ View Post
Love me some $5 corn chips.

No wait!
I see nothing wrong with paying bloated prices for processed, **** food. Pay for the **** you put in your body. Funny how all it takes is a few hours per month to maintain your own garden and save yourself a lot of money whilst eating a healthier diet.

This goes without saying that I lived downtown in a big city off a minimum wage job and never had a problem paying for sufficient food immediately after the last recession we had.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:01 PM #129
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I see nothing wrong with paying bloated prices for processed, **** food. Pay for the **** you put in your body. Funny how all it takes is a few hours per month to maintain your own garden and save yourself a lot of money whilst eating a healthier diet.

This goes without saying that I lived downtown in a big city off a minimum wage job and never had a problem paying for sufficient food immediately after the last recession we had.
You missed the point. Do you own and drive a car?
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:02 PM #130
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post

I see nothing wrong with paying bloated prices for processed, **** food. Pay for the **** you put in your body. Funny how all it takes is a few hours per month to maintain your own garden and save yourself a lot of money whilst eating a healthier diet.

This goes without saying that I lived downtown in a big city off a minimum wage job and never had a problem paying for sufficient food immediately after the last recession we had.
Your liberal utopia is different.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:47 PM #131
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Originally Posted by $h@key J0nEZ View Post
You missed the point. Do you own and drive a car?
I do now. Yes.

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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Your liberal utopia is different.
My liberal utopia? Please expound.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:53 PM #132
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My liberal utopia? Please expound.
That's where only criminals have guns, and everybody gets 90% of their paycheck taken from them in taxes. Which will then be sent to other countries.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:00 PM #133
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That's where only criminals have guns, and everybody gets 90% of their paycheck taken from them in taxes. Which will then be sent to other countries.
I own a gun and carry. I also very much enjoy target shooting.

I have sour views of welfare and the way it's appropriated.

How is what you described part of my utopia? And what does your post have to do with anything?
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:09 PM #134
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I own a gun and carry. I also very much enjoy target shooting.
You terrorist scumbag. Don't you care about the children?
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:23 PM #135
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Back on ignore. Bye, kid. Enjoy working at Kohl's for those sweet car mods.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:31 PM #136
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:46 PM #137
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I do now. Yes.



My liberal utopia? Please expound.
Where you live, hoss.

Both you and i know where Sir Mix Allot is from, and know the Broadway he is talking about with his hit single "My posse is on Broadway"
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:57 PM #138
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Where you live, hoss.

Both you and i know where Sir Mix Allot is from, and know the Broadway he is talking about with his hit single "My posse is on Broadway"
Ahh... Okay.

Story time: When I worked at the bank, Sir Mix-A-Lot came in to make deposits. Dude is still doing quite well.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:28 PM #139
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It isn't that hard to figure out. Remember when gas was $1.75 a gallon...
remember when Japan was the second largest economy in the world? If you want gas prices to be stuck at 1.75 then you're gonna need to steal a few nuclear weapons and kill about a billion chinese people. Then in about 20 years you'll need to do the same thing with India.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:31 PM #140
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remember when Japan was the second largest economy in the world?
Remember when obama promised transparency?
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:04 AM #141
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The same IRS office that deliberately*targeted*conservative groups applying for tax-exempt status in the run-up to the 2012 election released nine pending confidential applications of conservative groups to ProPublica*late last year.
http://www.propublica.org/article/ir...fidential-docs

Well crap...
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:03 AM #142
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Sounds like some people need to go to jail.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:40 AM #143
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I'm in partial agreement with you and I guess more agreement after your post that follows FE's reply to me.

(I may be slightly interested in your usage of fundamentalism, but it's separate from the issue at hand.)

The government has to do something about this in order to initiate change. It is better for the overall harmony between one another and between us and our Earth to lay the least damage upon it. You speak of middle and upper class being at some sort of fault for not transcending the lifestyles of the poor, but as any advancement in technology goes, the rich will always be the first to benefit until the demand grows high enough for the poor to afford it.
This is the sort of starry eyed rhetoric I'm talking about when I mention fundamentalism. This is a pleasant sentiment but it is vague as hell. Seriously.

I spoke of the middle and upper class environmental/alt energy crowd because they are the ones who insist the loudest that we need to make change, yet examples of individuals who have actually made real changes on their own are few and far between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc
You are correct though; there is definitely a fetishism for the proposed apocalyptic outcome due to not switching energy sources and it's an absurdity that has ruined the image of how and why we should be looking in to such future technologies.
Such a vast project as re tooling our entire infrastructure around an alternative energy with at least equivalent output as fossil fuel had a window of opportunity decades ago. People want to maintain the trappings of industrial society without making sacrifices.

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Originally Posted by Treghc
This leads me back to what I was getting at: the government is really the only entity alive that can push us towards this goal. It's a dangerous route to have open, I definitely agree. But I see no other option for a culture deeply entrenched in selfishness for personal luxuries and enjoyment at the expense of all other things. Consumerism has taken a priority to damn near everyone's lives in this country and most of the Western nations. While I see the want and need to change this way of life, the length in which the process would take is great enough for us to consider how to correct things in the meantime.
Allow me to be clear: I do not believe it is inherently dangerous to blend belief and state. I call the division a membrane because it is the best analogy I could think of that illustrates perfectly how belief influences legislation. Specifically in regards to the regulation of behavior.

Consider if you will the parallel between what you say here and DOMA. You describe cultural impedance to progress towards alt energy and green tech. Therefore the state must get involved. The belief passes through the membrane. Our culture also impedes the progress toward a society of traditional values, chiefly on the subject of marriage. Therefore the state must get involved. Another belief passes through the membrane. Regulate the behavior through law since people won't make the changes.

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Originally Posted by Treghc
Consumer have proven to us that electric cars can work in the free market. Tesla has been doing much better than expected. While I fully warrant the worry in the toxicity of spent batteries, I believe that the majority of those driving electric cars don't actually drive them that much (their range is rather lacking for a single charge). I don't want to weigh on that side as an assumption though.
You need to consider that the energy which is being produced to charge those cars as well as produce, maintain and dispose of them is reliant on fossil fuel. The practicality of the cars notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by Treghc
This does not mean alternative energy sources shouldn't be used or researched further though. Battery technology has been booming and, should the demand prove high enough, will only grow in advancements as time goes by. On the other hand, we have even cleaner alternative like hydrogen fuel cells, algae, and others that are in their infantile stages. Nobody is going to buy these products without them being rigorously tested and proven. And nobody is going to rigorously test them without money. This is where government is necessary to fund such things.
Waiting around for some future advancement that is out there, it only needs to be searched for. As well as ham fisting technology (like batteries or solar panels on cars) as replacements for fossil fuels without regard for their application.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:49 AM #144
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This attitude from liberals is starting to become a trend
They won the election didn't they. Its their turn.... You had yours the previous 8 years. That is the way the system works.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:00 AM #145
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Good thing I check Drudge daily.
Oh, you read it on the internet so it must be true..

Suggestion, 10 minutes of CNN, MSNBC, and FOX per day is all you need to do to figures out what is MOST LIKELY closest to the truth. They all spin their point of view along with Drudge. None is right but the sum total of all of them gives you a good read. Too much of anything is not good for you and that includes NEWS Media and pizza.

Items that seem to not pass the 'giggle test' or are too outrageous I tend to try and verify. I ask for sources, search the internet. Too often, it is someone's opinion.

Americans are doing a good job figuring out where the middle of the road is and vote accordingly. God Bless Americans.... We have our Revolutions at the ballot box.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:02 AM #146
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Back to topic. IRS abuses.

We shall see if there was criminal wrongdoing on the part of employees of the IRS. If NOT, it is already published that those employees have been disciplined long before the new broke. We can Monday Quarterback if their discipline was appropriate or not.

A question I want answered is simply, "What possessed them to target these groups. To be so over zealous? To violated IRS guidelines and rules? To not seek supervisory approval. Didn't get adequate supervision? How did they feel they were just doing their job. Was it politically motivated?"

I pondered it a bit. Speculated in the absence of any detailed hearings or testimony.

Lets see, they were applying for non profit status. Some were alleged to be actively involved in Politics which by law precludes non profit status. Their activities clearly could be interpreted as political campaigning. "Education about the Second Amendment Rights is not too far from political activism.

Who in America needs to hear about the second amendment? Now I can make a judgment about whether or not it passes the "giggle test" and sure seems like they are or are not engaged in political campaigning for a plank of the GOP platform during the election. However, I think we would all agree that the IRS has to meet a higher standard. It has the meet body of law and legal president to deny and application or prosecute offenders for tax fraud. I can't imagine that they weren't being diligent in doing their research to make the legal basis for denying or approving an application.

One other minor problem. It was before an election and dozens of applications were being processed. Thousands if not millions of dollars in donations that may or may not be tax deductible depending. And only TWO people were assigned to the JOB? Sounds like a backlog to me. An impossible job to do properly. I can picture a chain of supervisory people saying to do the best they can. Their budget is limited. Make sure the application meet criteria before you issue a non exempt status. Politically neutral? Maybe. Maybe not. Any supervisor would KNOW there would be a backlog and that could result in a political impact on the election to suit their political leanings. But he is squeaky clean and no one could fault him for providing that direction. Got his *** covered in the e mails. Got a couple of scapegoats all lined up. Never has to speak a word aloud for it to occur. Complete deniability. Supervisors tend to be smart people and know about CYA. Been there, done that myself. Just to protect my job and not be in a position to be a scapegoat. Dodged several.

If they applied for a PAC (Political Action Committee) which does NOT allow your donations to be considered a tax deduction, we would not be having this discussion.

Now isn't the GOP drum beat about taxes, big government, tax cuts, etc. More that a few actively 'interpret' IRS law to favor them. sure, we ALL do. No reason to pay taxes I am not required to pay. Lots of fuzzy areas.

So it would be reasonable for the IRS to suspect fraudulent applications for tax free status when their intent is to participate in politics. Isn't is suspect that these group filed just BEFORE an election year in Mass..? Sure it is.

Somewhere in the process, a decision was made or not made to handle this issue. Hence the statement released that they lacked 'sensitivitiy"?

Were they expected to just rubber stamp the applications, let them do their thing and then prosecute them for tax fraud and go back onto their donor list and collect the money from them they unlawfully deducted? Well, that is a pretty expensive decision and opens them to allegations of NOT doing their job in the first place. Do they take the applications in the order received and process them accordingly? Many would not have their application approved until AFTER the election. Some are STILL pending according to the news reports.

I imagine myself in their job. Two guys, Hundreds of applicants all screaming for non exempt status NOW so they can tell prospective donors their donation is tax deductible. Told to do your job and do the best you can given the time and resources available. Would you go out into the field to one of their programs and record it for political activity? No budget for that.

I might be inclined to do the 'shotgun' approach. Ask for a mountain of information from the applicants. Not Investigate it.

I would ask for records regarding their activities, I would ask for donor lists so I could ask them what they were told their donations would be used for... Those are reasonable and appropriate things to determine for a political organization or non profit organization. Did they educate Non Registered Voters about the second amendment? High school government classes? Or do their 'education' at political rallies handing out flyers? Clear examples of non and political activities. Many other examples that are just plain argueable. Mostly irrelavent information and a smattering of relavent information received.

It would smak of bias, stonewalling, politics, whatever. True or not. I can imagine it occurring without malice by those two IRS staff. Not to say there wasn't malice in the chain of command in the IRS.

MAYBE we will see, most likely NOT.

I'm sure NOT will be fodder for the conspiracy theorists.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:29 AM #147
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Off topic. Gas Prices? OIL prices remain HIGH. Go look what it has been selling for on the Commodity Market. Want to know what gas is going to cost you NEXT MONTH. See if oil went up or down this month.

Yes, you and I have to compete with the REST of the World for energy. No law requires the oil companies to sell their products ONLY in the USA. Never will. Fact of life. If they can make more money selling it outside of the USA, they can and WILL. TAXES are the State and Federal Highway taxes. EPA doesn't tax. I really WISH you would be better informed when you post.... Your arguments might be more persuasive if they were credible.

The good news is PEMEX is building their FIRST gasoline refinery in the entire country of Mexico. Providing a LOT of jobs for their country. 90% of the gas I buy in Mexico for $4.00 a gallon or more is from the good old USA. When they get that plant online and refine their own oil, maybe the supply will exceed demand and prices stabilize for a while.
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