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Old 05-15-2013, 04:38 PM #64
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If you are using super brittle paint you want the least resistance possible. If the ball doesnt go into the barrel effortlessly the bolt will go right through the ball.

Not every paintball is exactly the same size so if you overbore you will have less chance of breaking any misshaped balls.
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:19 PM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paint_hore View Post
If you are using super brittle paint you want the least resistance possible. If the ball doesnt go into the barrel effortlessly the bolt will go right through the ball.

Not every paintball is exactly the same size so if you overbore you will have less chance of breaking any misshaped balls.
This is of course a factor however the much bigger factor in paint breaks comes from impact damage not as much from squeezing. A paintball can be squeezed a great deal before it will bust. There are some exceptions to this especially with chilled paint and of course certain batches of paint however in general you should be able to underbore comfortably without seeing paint breaks. I shoot brittle paint all the time without issue unless it is very cold out and additional testing has suggested the same.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:32 AM #66
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My point remains, less resistance the less chance the bolt smashes the paint. Never said anything about squeezing a paintball as that has nothing to do with what Im saying.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:43 AM #67
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My point remains, less resistance the less chance the bolt smashes the paint. Never said anything about squeezing a paintball as that has nothing to do with what Im saying.
The point here is that the loading fractures are not usually the result of bore resistance. I shoot underbored with ultra evil almost exclusively and rarely ever get breaks unless I mistime my load (i.e. clip a ball). I have loaded paint so far underbored it had to be hammered into the barrel with the bolt and actually did not fire out of the barrel, and did not get breaks.

The other week I broke out my cocker for a rare semi game and shot some balls that were so oversized i had to crank up my lpr AND for many manually push the bolt in from the back to load. no loading breaks.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:18 PM #68
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I dont think anybody is talking about pumps....you would have to be retarded to overbore a pump.

Plus I dont think you are using 100psi of force on your pump stroke.
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:01 PM #69
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Pump guns underbore and they are very accurate.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:46 PM #70
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I dont think anybody is talking about pumps....you would have to be retarded to overbore a pump.

Plus I dont think you are using 100psi of force on your pump stroke.
Missed the part about semi did you?

Also you can create WAY more force with your arm than any paintball ram.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:12 PM #71
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Missed the part about semi did you?

Also you can create WAY more force with your arm than any paintball ram.

Go get an open bolt electro, use it for a few years with all sorts of paints and barrels so you can post back with credible info to my point. Till then we are comparing apples and oranges.

I dont pay pump enough to talk with any knowledge on fragile paint and underboring so Ill just say glad it works for you.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:37 PM #72
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Pump guns underbore and they have the same accuracy as any other marker using an underbore.
Fixed that for you.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:14 AM #73
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Go get an open bolt electro, use it for a few years with all sorts of paints and barrels so you can post back with credible info to my point. Till then we are comparing apples and oranges.
I've used a lot of guns, barrels and paint types in the last 24 years...

I've been underboring pump and semi since before it was even called underboring. My step up point has been when the paint squeaks in the barrel. Breaks have never been a problem.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:11 PM #74
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And my point is when I break paint and go to a bigger overbore I break much less.

I guess we will agree to disagree.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:19 PM #75
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And my point is when I break paint and go to a bigger overbore I break much less.

I guess we will agree to disagree.
Obviously you'll have less breaks when you overbore. You'll also have worse efficiency and your consistency will have a wider variance; which will affect accuracy of your shot.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:52 AM #76
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Obviously you'll have less breaks when you overbore. You'll also have worse efficiency and your consistency will have a wider variance; which will affect accuracy of your shot.
Less efficiency, yes. Appreciably less consistency? No.
Consistency is also much smaller factor in accuracy than imparted spin. The tighter your bore is, the more random spin your barrel will impart to your shots.
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:02 PM #77
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Less efficiency, yes. Appreciably less consistency? No.
Consistency is also much smaller factor in accuracy than imparted spin. The tighter your bore is, the more random spin your barrel will impart to your shots.
Not in my experience. My shot groupings and consistency improved considerably when I switched from a .684 to a .678 .
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:35 PM #78
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Post a video, I'd like to see the improvement.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:25 PM #79
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Obviously you'll have less breaks when you overbore.
Id think its common sense but everyone has their own point of view so we move on.

As far as accuracy, Im still ball on ball. Of course if you break one ball you are up ****s creek so the pros outweigh the cons.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:12 PM #80
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Obviously you'll have less breaks when you overbore. You'll also have worse efficiency and your consistency will have a wider variance; which will affect accuracy of your shot.
Nope, the consistency will only get better if you change from underbore/paint to bore match to an overbore. It will definately not have a wider variance. Test it out yourself. If you have a barrelkit, try it out.

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Not in my experience. My shot groupings and consistency improved considerably when I switched from a .684 to a .678 .
Paint to bore match will provide the worst consistency, that may have been why you got a better result underboring. A true overbore where all the balls are smaller then the bore will give the best consistency possible.

As paint_whore said, the are pro's and con's to both, as if you break paint when you overbore will be worse then breaking paint with an underbore, a few shots with a underbore and the balls will clean the barrel.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:36 PM #81
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Nope, the consistency will only get better if you change from underbore/paint to bore match to an overbore. It will definately not have a wider variance. Test it out yourself. If you have a barrelkit, try it out.



Paint to bore match will provide the worst consistency, that may have been why you got a better result underboring. A true overbore where all the balls are smaller then the bore will give the best consistency possible.

As paint_whore said, the are pro's and con's to both, as if you break paint when you overbore will be worse then breaking paint with an underbore, a few shots with a underbore and the balls will clean the barrel.
This isn't what the punkworks data showed and isn't my experience. I get excellent consistency when using both an overbore and underbore. I do not get any more breaks using underbore in normal circumstances (normal temperatures, quality paint, etc.). Paintball isn't always played in these conditions however which is why I don't recommend it in all cases. What underbore will allow you to do is run the lowest possible settings on your marker and get maximum efficiency. This means you can shoot more paint with a smoother/quieter marker feel than you can with overbore. Of course if you want the end all be all least risk of paint breaks, overbore is a great option. Many choose to overbore simply because it is more work, slightly more cost and slightly greater risk of breaks and that is perfectly ok.

The real argument for me on this topic is not the merits of underbore vs overbore, but the false accuracy claim. The data that I have seen from tests that were performed scientifically do not suggest a difference in accuracy with any type of boring except in absolutely extreme cases of underbore (causing spins). I am basing these off the punkworks and flasc barrel testing, not pbnation users shooting at plywood in the backyard.

In my gear back I have three barrels. A .681 Lapco Tightstick, a .685 CP on piece, and a .689 CP one piece. Over the years I have torn through endless amounts of barrels and found that these simple, cost effective one pieces with a decent bore size spread cover almost any scenario with good performance. Most of the time I end up using the Tightstick with paint at fields being around .682-685 for me. This gives a moderate underbore and fantastic performance out of my G6R. Back in the day when paint was bigger I would have had the .681 subbed out for a .693 but I simply haven't run into anything in a long time that a .689 wouldn't be a large overbore for.

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Old 05-19-2013, 11:39 PM #82
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Check out this vid. Noob question but if I overbore and chrono back up to offset drop off, will the group widen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7LMQLSfiDY&sns=em
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:22 AM #83
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5L73dN0Yz8

https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/ro...NA&output=html

Here is some data on the ball spinning. As you can see, at .006 underbore, you are getting a pretty substantial increase in spin. The smaller underbores however stay in the same range as bore matching and overbore. In the other users video that you posted, he said the paint he was shooting was around .686 in size so it makes sense his group was wider using the .680 barrel. You can also see that the second shot spread using the bore match had a wider spread on the Y axis. This is likely due to the reduced shot to shot consistency that is attributed to paint matching. As far as your question about will the group widen if you chrono higher, it is hard to say. I find my gun generally shoots best in the 280s so I keep it there. Sometimes paintballs begin to zing a bit more if you get up to a higher fps but I don't believe that has much to do with the bore size except in smaller underbores. A person should be able to shoot a .005 or so underbore and an overbore equally well as far as shot groupings are concerned.

The other people conducting these shot tests are seeing the right stuff, they just haven't been isolating the variables enough to call it actual data. You can't just use a random underbore it has to be in that sweet spot range (.003-.005 ish) which is why a lot of people just don't bother. If your paint swells throughout the day you have to keep up on it and adjust to the next size as needed. With an overbore you can just slap a large barrel on there and go play but are giving up some efficiency.

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Old 05-20-2013, 08:26 AM #84
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The real argument for me on this topic is not the merits of underbore vs overbore, but the false accuracy claim. The data that I have seen from tests that were performed scientifically do not suggest a difference in accuracy with any type of boring except in absolutely extreme cases of underbore (causing spins). I am basing these off the punkworks and flasc barrel testing, not pbnation users shooting at plywood in the backyard.
You do realize that the flasc barrel tests are the source of the controversy, right? Btw, I did all the flasc barrel accuracy testing.

Regarding Punkworks testing...I disagree with them about one of their main philosophies regarding the testing of paintball products, specifically barrels. They feel that if a phenomenom isn't apparent under ALL playing conditions it isn't worth investigating. You only need to read through the thread there about the testing of Lurkers experimental barrel the "Barracuda" to see this philosophy in action. They tested the barrel with poor quality paint, found it shot no different than the baseline barrel and called it a wash. Sorry, but when I test for barrel-induced effects, I remove as many variables as possible. Paint used should always be the highest quality available. Btw, the concept of the Barracuda came about from my work with saboted paintballs and the incredible accuracy they can achieve. As good as first strikes through a rifled barrel out to ~100' range.
When my testing with the flasc prototypes showed up the bore size shot spread trend, I informed punkworks and I even sent them 5 barrel at my expense to experiment with. They ran a test, but used paint that bored out at .691! This was to look for bore size shot spread variation in .682, .685, .687, .689 and .693 barrels....691 paint through a .693 is not an overbore, it's a bore match. Of course, they found a small trend through most of the barrels that wouldnt pass statistical testing, except for the smallest bore which showed a huge increase in shot spread. This test led to their conclusion about extreme underbore being a bad idea. Before it, they felt underbore was only limited by the paint's ability to survive the squeeze.

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Check out this vid. Noob question but if I overbore and chrono back up to offset drop off, will the group widen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7LMQLSfiDY&sns=em
No.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzum4cAFGDE

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