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Old 04-19-2013, 10:38 AM #1
Forrestball
 
 
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Crazy Invert Mini settings.

Hey guys I'm posting this here to see if anyone can help explain my results. Here's the deal. I loved my mini but with the stock bolt it had a noticeable amount of kick. I replaced the bolt with the lurker and while the lurker made it smooth and quiet it required a lot of maintenance and would frequently go down in the middle of a game. I took the lurker out including the spacer and went back to the stock bolt configuration but out of curiosity I left the back bolt guide oring as the larger one that is used with the lurker bolt and I retuned the mini starting with stock settings and working down. Here's what it's running at right now.
Dwell is at 6.5(I think, it was about 2 Ms or so down from stock)
Back cap has maybe one turn more out to be flush.
The reg pressure is at 120-140 psi (140 puts the gun shooting 300 fps +)
The efficiency doesn't seem great, tank started out today at 3500 I shot a full rotor and it was down to 3000 so 500 per Hopper? Think that's about what dads pmr shoots.
What do you think? The fact that it's down to 120 psi with the stock bolt and dwell has been lowered to seems insane. The gun is so quiet and has no kick, you can barely tell it's firing.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:40 AM #2
BarrrelROLL
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Stock spring?
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:42 AM #3
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Yeah, lurker doesn't include springs he says the stock works best with his system.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:50 AM #4
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Well the lower pressure will lower recoil, and you larger washer with stock Bolt probaly is softening the bolt as it returns to the bolt guide, giving it a softer landing as it hit the bolt guide. Plus a larger o-ring means the bolt is closer to the ball which means less travel time down the bolt guide to the ball and allowing a lower dwell.
I think Im going to get a larger stop o-ring and test it out with my techt bolt, its sounds like it would allows for allround lower settings

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Old 04-19-2013, 12:19 PM #5
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Yeah do it, just to be sure we're on the same page I didn't replace the bumper oring, it's stock, the only oring that's different is the next one up, the closest to the back of the guide of the 3 that the bolt actually slides on. The top 2 or the ones furthest up are stock size the third is the lurker size, just like it'd be if using the lurker bolt.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:23 PM #6
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I am not sure that you two are talking about the same oring... The bolt guide has 3 orings and an oring bumper. The way I read it is that the third oring from the front is still an 012 x-ring. The bumper is kind of inconsequential (however I run 012 xrings on my friend's stock bolt'd axe and I run an 015 oring on the rear bolt oring).

Now to the original statement... On your lurker bolt I'm curious what was "going down" on you? If the spacer is seated and the bolt isn't binding it's just as reliable as anything else. A tank oring on the spacer front oring works well.

And to your tuning... it is almost always possible to tune the gun to run those type of settings. The tuning is almost entirely based on poppet opening vs pressure. You can run the gun with the velocity screw way out, and that'll allow you to drop your pressure, but the trade off is efficiency. Set the velocity adjuster to ~.75 - 1 turn out then up your pressure to a minimum 165. The tuning method in the sticky helps you find the optimum balance, but if you just want to set it and go then try 1 turn out and set pressure for the desired velocity.

edit: Just saw you clarified my first point.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:40 PM #7
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Lurker bolt would always break paint on me, I tryed tuning it to be as gentle as possible but would usually be back to busting paint by the next time I'd play, I ended up selling it as a package with another mini I had. But I think I understand now based on what you described as the efficiency is nothing to write home about. But I defiantly think that replacing the back bolt sail oring with a thicker one gives great benefits such as reduced kick and quieter shots, I've had no problems so far with it.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:58 PM #8
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The rear bolt oring, stock is an 017, and I actually run a smaller than stock 015 in the rear position. That is an idea I 100% borrowed from the boss bolt oring sizes (but I think he uses an 016). I'm assuming the two actually on the bolt are what you're calling bolt sail? The 3 main bolt guide orings are fine as long as they don't bind. If the profile on the "lurker oring" is actually an x-ring cross section then the benefit you're seeing is a result of reduced friction due the cross section more so than the size.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:21 PM #9
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No. I'm sorry, I ment the bolt guide rings, the ones on the bolt itself have been left alone.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:30 PM #10
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And it seems to me that the orings on the guide if stock don't really touch the bolt, if they do it's minimal, the orings lurker sent I believe are the same size just thicker, if stock is like 12/70 then these are 12/90 or whatever not really sure and their not x rings just standard. Which is giving more resistance to the bolt. Yoir saying I could also try a smaller oring on the bolt itself too?
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:05 PM #11
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No, stock on the bolt guide is a metric 1.5mm x 11mm metric ring. I think lurker sends a -012 which has a larger cross section which makes it tighter. The "x" or "o" just describes the cross section profile.

Yes, on all 2 oring bolts I have tested (stock, boss and shocktech) the results are almost always better with a slightly smaller rear oring. I have had great luck with an -015, but like I said, boss uses a -016 in just the rear position.

edit: On orings the 70 or 90 describes the hardness (durometer) of the ring. Most internal seals are 70 duro and tank orings are 90 which is why they're so much harder.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:44 PM #12
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Ok, I see now. Thanks for elaborating on this.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:29 AM #13
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please post a picture of the bolt guide... i have hard to understand what o-ring u are changing

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Old 04-20-2013, 12:49 PM #14
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Ok, I changed the back bolt oring to a 015, upped the psi to 180 and turned the bolt cap all the way in and preceded to sweet spot it like in the tuning guide. I then had to lower the psi to 140 and it's shooting at around 280 fps. That is with the bolt with the 015 oring in the rear spot and the 012 oring in the rear bolt guide spot (not the bolt bumper oring!!)
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:54 PM #15
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Dwell? At pressures like that your efficiency probably won't be too good. .75 - 1.25 would be where I'd run the back cap and dwell around 5ish.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:13 PM #16
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I think the back cap is out 1.5 turns, I left the dwell where I had adjusted it before 6.5, stock is 8 right?
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:16 PM #17
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I'll give ya an update on efficiency tomorrow since I'll be at the field and will be able to get 4500 psi fills.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:36 PM #18
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still don't get it... please post a picture
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:19 PM #19
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Ok, I'll try to when I get outa work tonight.
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:01 PM #20
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Stock dwell is 7. Every gun is a little different when it comes to tollerances and oring fit. All orings on the bolt guide and bolt should be snug fit to seal good but not too tight or binding no matter what bolt you use. Once you have thge right fit orings any bolt should be set it and forget it, atleast for a while until those orings start to wear. Once I got the orings right and gun tuned properly on my Mini, my Lurker bolt has been amazing, and just as dependable as stock.
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